Hagar, her role in Hajj and her absence from the Quran
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Orthodox Islam could almost be called a matriarchal religion due to its reliance on the figure of Hagar as the singular legitimizing and explanatory force behind Islamic rites and rituals, not to mention the ethnic connection to Abraham. This, despite the fact the Quran says that Ishmael and his father built the Bayt, and no mention of Hagar or her expulsion by Sarah is made. The only vague reference to Hagar in the Quran is in the story of Jesus' mother in desert which bears a striking resemblance to Jewish midrash on the expulsion of Hagar -- possibly to further humanize Jesus by portraying him as subject to the same indignities that Christian and Jewish scripture typically reserve for unpopular biblical characters. But in Islam, Mecca is an eternal city, the Kaaba built by angels, Arabia's desolation cured by Hagar's tears, though none of these elements figure in the Quran. Instead, requiring a modified reading of the book of Genesis, including a radical geographic relocation.
The western academic revisionist view of Islam is that the Arabs were a partner to the Byzantium Christians, initially taking over Jerusalem in a political exchange and then taking it from the Romans militarily. Needing to justify their rule they invented a history for themselves like the Herodians. If this is true then there's no reason for Hagar and so many other Islamic traditions to be missing from the Quran. But if the alternative is true -- that these traditions are innovations why do the Quranic rites go without explanation?
Another important Quranist question would be, without the Hagar-centric background to explain the nature and rituals of Hajj what do you do?
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I am sure you are familiar with the story of how men must run back and forth to make up for Hagar having to run back and forth when she was looking for water for her son Ishamel. However the Qu'ran says no one bears the burden of another soul's burden so in light of that is this ritual necessary? Is this ritual in the Qu'ran?
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I am sure you are familiar with the story of how men must run back and forth to make up for Hagar having to run back and forth when she was looking for water for her son Ishamel. However the Qu'ran says no one bears the burden of another soul's burden so in light of that is this ritual necessary? Is this ritual in the Qu'ran?
Dear AK85,
Just see 2158 and let us know what you think.
Peace,
Khalil -
Dear AK85,
Just see 2158 and let us know what you think.
Peace,
KhalilLiteral That the Saffa/rock and the Marwa/flint stones (are) from God's methods/ways of worship, so who performed pilgrimage (to) the House/Home , or headed to/visited so no offense/guilt/sin on him that (he) circles/walks around by them (B), and who volunteered good , so that God (is) thankful/grateful, knowledgeable.
Yusuf Ali Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
Pickthal Lo! (the mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of Allah) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord, (for him) lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.
Arberry Safa and Marwa are among the waymarks of God; so whosoever makes the Pilgrimage to the House, or the Visitation, it is no fault in him to circumambulate them; and whoso volunteers good, God is All-grateful, All-knowing
Shakir Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful, Knowing.
Sarwar Safa and Marwah (names of two places in Mecca) are reminders of God. It is no sin for one who visits the Sacred House (in Mecca) to walk seven times between (Safa and Marwah.) Whoever willingly does a good deed in obedience to God, will find God All-knowing and Fully Appreciative.
Khalifa The knolls of Safa and Marwah are among the rites decreed by GOD. Anyone who observes Hajj or `Umrah commits no error by traversing the distance between them. If one volunteers more righteous works, then GOD is Appreciative, Omniscient.
Hilali/Khan Verily! As-Safa and Al-Marwah (two mountains in Makkah) are of the Symbols of Allah. So it is not a sin on him who perform Hajj or Umrah (pilgrimage) of the House (the Kabah at Makkah) to perform the going (Tawaf) between them (As-Safa and Al-Marwah). And whoever does good voluntarily, then verily, Allah is All-Recogniser, All-Knower.
H/K/Saheeh Indeed, a§-êafa and al-Marwah are among the symbols of Allah. So whoever makes ?ajj to the House or performs umrah there is no blame upon him for walking between them. And whoever volunteers good then indeed, Allah is appreciative and Knowing.
Malik Behold! Safa and Marwah (two hills in the Sacred Mosque) are among the symbols of Allah. So anyone who performs Hajj or Umrah (pilgrimage) to the House, there is no blame if one goes around both of them; and anyone who does good voluntarily should know that surely Allah knows the grateful.QXP There is no blame for a pilgrim of the House or a visitor in walking between the Mount Safa and the Mount Marwa. (They are historical relics of Allah since Abraham and Ishmael worked there to build the Ka'bah. Rites and rituals in themselves are not the end. They must be treated only as devotional means to a higher goal (222). Therefore, do every good deed possible that will benefit the community. Allah is Appreciative and fully rewards such people. He is all Knowing.
Maulana Ali The Safa and the Marwah are truly among the signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them. And whoever does good spontaneously -- surely Allah is Bountiful in rewarding, Knowing.
Free Minds The camel and goat heavy with milk are amongst God's decrees. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the sanctuary, or is merely passing through, commits no error that he should partake of them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.
Qaribullah Safah and Marwah are the waymarks of Allah. Whoever performs the pilgrimage to the House or the visit, there shall be no guilt on him to circumambulate between both of them. And whoever volunteers good, Allah is Thankful, the Knower.
George Sale Moreover Safa and Merwah are two of the monuments of God Whoever therefore goeth on pilgrimage to the temple of Mecca or visiteth it, it shall be no crime in him if he compass them both. And as for him who voluntarily performeth a good work; verily God is grateful and knowing.
JM Rodwell Verily, Safa and Marwah are among the monuments of God whoever then maketh a pilgrimage to the temple, or visiteth it, shall not be to blame if he go round about them both. And as for him who of his own accord doeth what is good-God is Grateful, Knowing.
Asad behold, As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the symbols set up by God; and thus, no wrong does he who, having come to the Temple on pilgrimage or on a pious visit, strides to and fro between these two for, if one does more good than he is bound to do-behold, God is responsive to gratitude, all-knowing.
ok so the hilali/khan translation calls the circumambulation ritual tawaf, I am familiar with this.
This was not the ritual I was referring to however. I have heard of a ritual, which only men are supposed to take part in, where they must run back and forth between two points (someone correct me please if I am wrong about the details) to make up for Hagar's desperate running back and forth to find substinence for Ishamel.
Now to me this sounds like us males, bearing the burden of the sin of her being cast out to fend for herself with baby Ishmael in the hot dry desert.
Is the above ritual prescribed in the Qu'ran? And if it is can you please direct me to it and if it is in the Qu'ran, why is it not a contradiction of God stating that no soul shall bear the burden of another soul ?
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ok so the hilali/khan translation calls the circumambulation ritual tawaf, I am familiar with this.
This was not the ritual I was referring to however. I have heard of a ritual, which only men are supposed to take part in, where they must run back and forth between two points (someone correct me please if I am wrong about the details) to make up for Hagar's desperate running back and forth to find substinence for Ishamel.
Now to me this sounds like us males, bearing the burden of the sin of her being cast out to fend for herself with baby Ishmael in the hot dry desert.
Is the above ritual prescribed in the Qu'ran? And if it is can you please direct me to it and if it is in the Qu'ran, why is it not a contradiction of God stating that no soul shall bear the burden of another soul ?
The highlighted above are from me.
Salaam Dear Ak85,
To let you know, this is the first time I'm hearing about such a separate / extra ritual other than the circumambulation of ASSAFAA & ALMARWAH in 2158. So if there is anything out there regarding this extra / separate "HAJJ ritual", it must have come form HADITH / SUUNAH, as you won't find it in the Qur'aan.
All I've heard is that the TAWAAF / CIRCUMAMBULATION of assafaa & almarwah is for the commemoration of "Hagar's desperate running back and forth to find sustinence for Ishmael."
Peace,
Khalil -
The Quran is clear that Prophets and messengers do not follow sunnah of other people. Its everyone else who follows the sunnah of the Prophets and messengers (that comes from the Quran)
Now to suggest that Prophet Muhammad (and every muslim after him to this day) ran back and forth between safah and marwah to follow the sunnah of Hajr doesnt make sense. The Quran says that these are the signs of Allah so to run back and forth between them is the sunnah of Allah and not of any human.
The story of Hajr is influenced from the bible and has creeped into the fake books of hadith. Who knows a woman by that name ever existed? If she is not in the Quran, she has no relevance in terms of religion for anyone of us. The only story of a mother that is mentioned is Maryam and we know her importance in terms of religion.
The story of Abraham ordered by Allah to sacrifice his son by cutting his throat is also a lie. The verse clearly says that Abraham saw a dream only that he was committing such an act.....NOT THAT HE WAS TOLD BY ALLAH IN THAT DREAM TO CUT HIS SON'S THROAT. Allah doesnt need blood sacrifice. This again comes from teh bible.
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The highlighted above are from me.
Salaam Dear Ak85,
To let you know, this is the first time I'm hearing about such a separate / extra ritual other than the circumambulation of ASSAFAA & ALMARWAH in 2158. So if there is anything out there regarding this extra / separate "HAJJ ritual", it must have come form HADITH / SUUNAH, as you won't find it in the Qur'aan.
All I've heard is that the TAWAAF / CIRCUMAMBULATION of assafaa & almarwah is for the commemoration of "Hagar's desperate running back and forth to find sustinence for Ishmael."
Peace,
KhalilThank you for clarifying Khalil. It is a clear contradiction in my view of not placing the burden of a soul upon another soul, I'm happy to know it is not in the Qu'ran.
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The Quran is clear that Prophets and messengers do not follow sunnah of other people. Its everyone else who follows the sunnah of the Prophets and messengers (that comes from the Quran)
Now to suggest that Prophet Muhammad (and every muslim after him to this day) ran back and forth between safah and marwah to follow the sunnah of Hajr doesnt make sense. The Quran says that these are the signs of Allah so to run back and forth between them is the sunnah of Allah and not of any human.
The story of Hajr is influenced from the bible and has creeped into the fake books of hadith. Who knows a woman by that name ever existed? If she is not in the Quran, she has no relevance in terms of religion for anyone of us. The only story of a mother that is mentioned is Maryam and we know her importance in terms of religion.
The story of Abraham ordered by Allah to sacrifice his son by cutting his throat is also a lie. The verse clearly says that Abraham saw a dream only that he was committing such an act.....NOT THAT HE WAS TOLD BY ALLAH IN THAT DREAM TO CUT HIS SON'S THROAT. Allah doesnt need blood sacrifice. This again comes from teh bible.
Sorry I might have made a mistake, this was not the circling as prescribed by tawaf, this was running to and back, like actually running, not walking and only men were supposed to do it, so it is clear to me anyway that this was not tawaf but something else
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Wow, my original post is really convoluted and messy.
What I was trying to ask was, why is there such a connection to Hagar in Islam when she's never mentioned in the Quran and how did various things in Islam (such as Safa and Mawra) come to be connected with her? And why do Arabs even assume they're descended from Ishmael when no ethnic connection is mentioned in the Quran (but is common in Christianity and Judaism)?
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I think you are assuming somehow the rituals would still be present under al-HJJ based on The Quran.
Peace
All the translations except that of Free minds(including QXP) suggest some sort of going around(A RITUAL) between Safa and Marwa in the ayat under discussion.Even the free minds translation suggests a pilgrimage to a sanctuary.A pilgrimage by the very implication of the word can include Ritual.
So the inference is that no matter how much my intellect dislikes it (and it does,for so many different reasons) i am forced to admit of the presence of ritual worship in the Quran,be it in Salat or in Hajj.
Javed -
peace javed1, all,
The free-minds translation is not perfect. On this particular point, it contains a huge error, which has been repeatedly pointed out by me, so let me be clear once more
there is no HJJ to (Arabic ila) anywhere in Al Quran, ever. This is a 100% insertion by many translators, including free-minds.
2158 has been discussed in detail on the forum, I recommend the search function.
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peace javed1, all,
The free-minds translation is not perfect. On this particular point, it contains a huge error, which has been repeatedly pointed out by me, so let me be clear once more
there is no HJJ to (Arabic ila) anywhere in Al Quran, ever. This is a 100% insertion by many translators, including free-minds.
2158 has been discussed in detail on the forum, I recommend the search function.
Peace
What is your rendering of 2227 then?
Roshan
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peace Roshan,
And announce to the people with/by the debate (conference/symposium), they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
As has been mentioned in the forum before, whatever HJJ is, the above verse implies it is a vehicle/medium through which to call/announce to the people. Thus a communication vehicle/medium such as debate (conference/symposium) fits better than a non-communication vehicle/medium such as "pilgrimage" or "feast". Further, such events are held in a centralised location, hence the travelling to such a location.
Thanks for bringing this up again however, as I just noticed how it says "they will come to YOU" (singular), same as the command to "announce" is singular, i.e. they come to the announcer, with no mention of coming to a special place.
Other forum discussions have also highlighted significant flaws with HJJ= pilgrimage understanding. I recommend reading all of its occurrences in AQ.
NB literally "al HJJ = the debate" but since it is described as an event, hence the additional rendering of "conference/symposium".
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peace Roshan,
And announce to the people with/by the debate (conference/symposium), they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
As has been mentioned in the forum before, whatever HJJ is, the above verse implies it is a vehicle/medium through which to call/announce to the people. Thus a communication vehicle/medium such as debate (conference/symposium) fits better than a non-communication vehicle/medium such as "pilgrimage" or "feast". Further, such events are held in a centralised location, hence the travelling to such a location.
Thanks for bringing this up again however, as I just noticed how it says "they will come to YOU" (singular), same as the command to "announce" is singular, i.e. they come to the announcer, with no mention of coming to a special place.
Other forum discussions have also highlighted significant flaws with HJJ= pilgrimage understanding. I recommend reading all of its occurrences in AQ.
NB literally "al HJJ = the debate" but since it is described as an event, hence the additional rendering of "conference/symposium".
Peace
What is to stop multiple people from multiple places declaring the hajj at the same time?
Roshan
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peace Roshan,
As far as I'm aware, AQ has criteria for when al HJJ is and what al HJJ entails. It does seem to imply a significantly structured/organised event, thus I think multiple people from multiple places declaring al HJJ at the same time is low, but for sake of argument, let's say it does happen. I would say if one wishes to attend or participate, then travel to the one you feel is best suited to you. As far as I can make out, there is no special one place, and one place only in AQ.
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peace Roshan,
As far as I'm aware, AQ has criteria for when al HJJ is and what al HJJ entails. It does seem to imply a significantly structured/organised event, thus I think multiple people from multiple places declaring al HJJ at the same time is low, but for sake of argument, let's say it does happen. I would say if one wishes to attend or participate, then travel to the one you feel is best suited to you. As far as I can make out, there is no special one place, and one place only in AQ.
Peace
How many sectarian Muslims are there in the world? Around one billion? And you cannot think why multiple people would want to declare the hajj in their location?
This would be a major risk of what you advocate (although I realise you are stating what you feel to be AQ's view).
We know from history that Jerusalem was a major pilgrimage in the early days for Muslims (http//www.amazon.com/History-Israel-Holy-Land/dp/0826485723/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275902683&sr=1-9). We of course know that Makkah is now the major place for sectarian Muslims, despite there being no evidence in the Quran for it's position as any spiritual place of significance in the Quran (versus say Bekka or even Petra). The (pre-Muhammad) historical role of Makkah is also largely mythical.
So, I think this has, most likely, already happened and would further happen. Why not a 'hajj' in every continent, why not in every country?
Roshan
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bull's eye! kgwitnob's got tis one handshake
the verse 2158 seems to be self-explanatory.. n hagar was not emphasised too much coz there's always the possibility tat over the generations the ritual wud hav become a woman-specific one! (yea, our dudes are always gud at dumpin the difficult chores on 'em women) ;Dpeace
harris -
peace,
I said the chances would be low, not that I cannot think why they would.
Peace
How do you feel about 396-7 and a physical journey to a specific place for the hajj? Is this not defining the place of hajj and then stating that man owes it to God to do the hajj?
Roshan
