Hagar, her role in Hajj and her absence from the Quran
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peace javed1, all,
The free-minds translation is not perfect. On this particular point, it contains a huge error, which has been repeatedly pointed out by me, so let me be clear once more
there is no HJJ to (Arabic ila) anywhere in Al Quran, ever. This is a 100% insertion by many translators, including free-minds.
2158 has been discussed in detail on the forum, I recommend the search function.
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peace javed1, all,
The free-minds translation is not perfect. On this particular point, it contains a huge error, which has been repeatedly pointed out by me, so let me be clear once more
there is no HJJ to (Arabic ila) anywhere in Al Quran, ever. This is a 100% insertion by many translators, including free-minds.
2158 has been discussed in detail on the forum, I recommend the search function.
Peace
What is your rendering of 2227 then?
Roshan
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peace Roshan,
And announce to the people with/by the debate (conference/symposium), they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
As has been mentioned in the forum before, whatever HJJ is, the above verse implies it is a vehicle/medium through which to call/announce to the people. Thus a communication vehicle/medium such as debate (conference/symposium) fits better than a non-communication vehicle/medium such as "pilgrimage" or "feast". Further, such events are held in a centralised location, hence the travelling to such a location.
Thanks for bringing this up again however, as I just noticed how it says "they will come to YOU" (singular), same as the command to "announce" is singular, i.e. they come to the announcer, with no mention of coming to a special place.
Other forum discussions have also highlighted significant flaws with HJJ= pilgrimage understanding. I recommend reading all of its occurrences in AQ.
NB literally "al HJJ = the debate" but since it is described as an event, hence the additional rendering of "conference/symposium".
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peace Roshan,
And announce to the people with/by the debate (conference/symposium), they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
As has been mentioned in the forum before, whatever HJJ is, the above verse implies it is a vehicle/medium through which to call/announce to the people. Thus a communication vehicle/medium such as debate (conference/symposium) fits better than a non-communication vehicle/medium such as "pilgrimage" or "feast". Further, such events are held in a centralised location, hence the travelling to such a location.
Thanks for bringing this up again however, as I just noticed how it says "they will come to YOU" (singular), same as the command to "announce" is singular, i.e. they come to the announcer, with no mention of coming to a special place.
Other forum discussions have also highlighted significant flaws with HJJ= pilgrimage understanding. I recommend reading all of its occurrences in AQ.
NB literally "al HJJ = the debate" but since it is described as an event, hence the additional rendering of "conference/symposium".
Peace
What is to stop multiple people from multiple places declaring the hajj at the same time?
Roshan
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peace Roshan,
As far as I'm aware, AQ has criteria for when al HJJ is and what al HJJ entails. It does seem to imply a significantly structured/organised event, thus I think multiple people from multiple places declaring al HJJ at the same time is low, but for sake of argument, let's say it does happen. I would say if one wishes to attend or participate, then travel to the one you feel is best suited to you. As far as I can make out, there is no special one place, and one place only in AQ.
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peace Roshan,
As far as I'm aware, AQ has criteria for when al HJJ is and what al HJJ entails. It does seem to imply a significantly structured/organised event, thus I think multiple people from multiple places declaring al HJJ at the same time is low, but for sake of argument, let's say it does happen. I would say if one wishes to attend or participate, then travel to the one you feel is best suited to you. As far as I can make out, there is no special one place, and one place only in AQ.
Peace
How many sectarian Muslims are there in the world? Around one billion? And you cannot think why multiple people would want to declare the hajj in their location?
This would be a major risk of what you advocate (although I realise you are stating what you feel to be AQ's view).
We know from history that Jerusalem was a major pilgrimage in the early days for Muslims (http//www.amazon.com/History-Israel-Holy-Land/dp/0826485723/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275902683&sr=1-9). We of course know that Makkah is now the major place for sectarian Muslims, despite there being no evidence in the Quran for it's position as any spiritual place of significance in the Quran (versus say Bekka or even Petra). The (pre-Muhammad) historical role of Makkah is also largely mythical.
So, I think this has, most likely, already happened and would further happen. Why not a 'hajj' in every continent, why not in every country?
Roshan
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bull's eye! kgwitnob's got tis one handshake
the verse 2158 seems to be self-explanatory.. n hagar was not emphasised too much coz there's always the possibility tat over the generations the ritual wud hav become a woman-specific one! (yea, our dudes are always gud at dumpin the difficult chores on 'em women) ;Dpeace
harris -
peace,
I said the chances would be low, not that I cannot think why they would.
Peace
How do you feel about 396-7 and a physical journey to a specific place for the hajj? Is this not defining the place of hajj and then stating that man owes it to God to do the hajj?
Roshan
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peace Roshan,
I previously said "Further, such events are held in a centralised location, hence the travelling to such a location."
Thus, I have no problem with travelling to a location or al-HJJ itself. There is no HJJ to al bayt in this verse or any verse. If you are implying one specific location only, then yes I have a problem with that as I cannot see any evidence for this in AQ. 396 itself says "first" house/bayt, implying not the only one, and this can be further shown in AQ, e.g. 1087 etc.
