Quran 2:82, discussion with an Atheist.
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THis is an online discussion I had with 2 Atheists
Athiest 1 Quran 2182 (1 male witness = 2 female witness, but not vice versa. why not?)
Me Because of the differences in physiology
Atheist 2 Exactly what sort of physiological traits would make a women's testimony worth less than a man's? Surely not boobs, I hope!
Me Women give birth and men don?t, women must rest for a lengthy period after child birth while men don?t, women as mothers must suckle their children while men don't, women have menstrual cycles which incapacitate there movement somewhat while men don?t. These differences exist as a matter of physical fact and have nothing to do with intellegence or will.
Atheist 1 O you who believe, if you borrow for a future period, then you shall record it. And let a scribe of justice record it for you; and let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him. Let him record and let the person who is borrowing dictate to him, and let him be aware of God, and let him not reduce from it anything. If the one who is borrowing is immature or weak or he cannot dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate with justice; and bring two witnesses from among your men; if there are not two men, then a man and two women from whom you will accept their testimony, so that if one of them becomes blindsided, then the one can remind the other. And let the witnesses not refuse to come if they are called. And do not fail to record it no matter how small or large until its maturity. That is more just with God and better for the testimony, and better that you do not have doubts; except if it is a trade to be done on the spot between you, then there is no sin upon you if you do not record it. And have evidence if you trade. No scribe shall be harmed nor any witness; for if you do so then it is a wickedness on your part, and be aware of God and God teaches you and God is aware of all things.
what about forgetting and reminding phrase?
Athiest 2 Overseas travel, domestic travel, attendance in parliament, being admitted to hospital and so on are only some of the reasons that men give to excuse themselves from court. I am sure there will be more. A menstruating or a breast feeding women can present herself in court. You know, there are those strange thingamie-jigs called tampons now that they didn't have in the Bronze Age. Modern technology allows a mother's milk to be extracted and besides a baby can be breast fed anywhere. So what's the big deal?
Me can you ask yourself this question. Wouldn't a women in labour or a woman in menstruation forget due to the pain they have to bear. As you know women experience a lot of pain when childbirth so the women might forget somethings on the day that they have to give witness.
That is also due to the physical differences. An average women is physically weaker than an average man.
Athiest 1 so 1 burly man = 2 puny men? 1 powerful woman = 2 common men? no witness protection in islamic courts?
Athiest 2 A man may also be incapacitated on the day he is called as a witness. Courts already permit adjournments. Again childbirth is simpler these days compared to your Bronze Age. A women I work with took off from work one morning and returned to work that afternoon after giving birth to her first child. I think you need to wake up from your slumber to century 21 AD. The rest of us have progressed light years. Good point Atheist 1, about witness protection. Perhaps our other friend here haven't seen big fat mamas, Brun Hildas or puny little men.
ME I did say "average"
Me anything might happen. those laws are there to minimize the threats and to make sure that the case is carried on smoothly.
Athiest 2 think you are now delving into the realms of conjecture.
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Salaam Brother Munzir Ali,
Did you raise the fact that 1 male = 2 female only occurs in financial transaction? There is one case where woman's testimony is worth more than man which is stated in 246-9
And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
Salaam
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Salaam Brother Munzir Ali,
Did you raise the fact that 1 male = 2 female only occurs in financial transaction? There is one case where woman's testimony is worth more than man which is stated in 246-9
And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) by Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
Salaam )
No I didn't. -[
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Salaam Munzir Ali,
your explanations are very poor, I would find them a joke myself if I were these friends of yours, within Islam both men and women are equal in worth, your slightly insane idea of womens testimony having less value due to child birth or physical weakness is non-sense, a womens testimony is equal to that of a man, the problem women face is intimidation, it is far easier to intimidate a women, so with this in mind when giving evidence a women could have a companion to support her and prevent intimidation. This concept of equal value of testimony is supported within 246 -9 as Bornagain points out, as once a concept is expressed within the Qur'an it applies throughout every verse.
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Salaam Munzir Ali,
your explanations are very poor, I would find them a joke myself if I were these friends of yours, within Islam both men and women are equal in worth, your slightly insane idea of womens testimony having less value due to child birth or physical weakness is non-sense, a womens testimony is equal to that of a man, the problem women face is intimidation, it is far easier to intimidate a women, so with this in mind when giving evidence a women could have a companion to support her and prevent intimidation. This concept of equal value of testimony is supported within 246 -9 as Bornagain points out, as once a concept is expressed within the Qur'an it applies throughout every verse.
Thanks for the Advice. )
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peace Munzir,
You have said in the past that the content of this site is good www.misconceptions-about-islam.com
But it has this very specific question on it www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htm
Remember one very important thing when discussing or forming beliefs of one's own, and that is to be aware of one's own strengths as well as weaknesses (e.g. bias, logical fallacies). If a person is unaware of their weaknesses they will make many errors in their journey. This problem can be reduced however. For example, I routinely study up on logic and critical thinking, and even do some exercises. My favourite site is
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http/www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.htmlSince you are young, you have a better opportunity to train your mind. I strongly recommend it.
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peace Munzir,
You have said in the past that the content of this site is good www.misconceptions-about-islam.com
But it has this very specific question on it www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/two-female-witnesses-one-male.htm
Remember one very important thing when discussing or forming beliefs of one's own, and that is to be aware of one's own strengths as well as weaknesses (e.g. bias, logical fallacies). If a person is unaware of their weaknesses they will make many errors in their journey. This problem can be reduced however. For example, I routinely study up on logic and critical thinking, and even do some exercises. My favourite site is
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http/www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.htmlSince you are young, you have a better opportunity to train your mind. I strongly recommend it.
I didn't read all of that website.
THanks for the advice handshake I believe you.
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Athiest 1 Quran 2182 (1 male witness = 2 female witness, but not vice versa. why not?)
This is my own understanding of the one male witness=2 female witnesses.
I didn't post that one when I was discussing with the atheists because I wasn't sure my understanding was correct.
"A man, in the presence of a single woman, might pressure the women to give false testimony, but if 2 women are called this will not happen"
Can this be another reason?
peace
