Possible explanation for why Uthman decided Sura 9 should have no Basmallah
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Thereformer1 - My problem is not with necessary violence but with aggression and sectarianism. I have no problem with other Suras which urge believers to defend themselves - i.e. Sura 2 - "fight those who fight you but do not transgress - God does not favour the aggressors". That is correct - it is self defence and is directed at enemy combatants. Sura 9 is not defensive but aggressive - breaking the teaching of Sura 2. It is not directed at combatants but another religious group, the polytheists - thus is it pre-emptive incitement to sectarian violence.
Salam Alaykom,
from my part I strongly recommand you to search of the cause of the shadings of this sura 9, because it's not talking about voilence at all or maybe the translation of the sura in english make it for you find some voilence statements in its verses. As I know the words in arabic don't talk about violence.
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Salam Alaykom,
from my part I strongly recommand you to search of the cause of the shadings of this sura 9, because it's not talking about voilence at all or maybe the translation of the sura in english make it for you find some voilence statements in its verses. As I know the words in arabic don't talk about violence.
Really?
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/9/5/default.htm
Yusuf Ali - But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)
Pickthal - Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush
Hilali/Khan - Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
H/K/Saheeh - And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush
Free Minds - So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point.
It's the use of this term "when" that is the definitive term for me. It's not saying it is contingent upon the other side doing something wrong. It is a decision already made. That's why I said earlier this would land any politician or general in the world before a war crimes tribunal. It's like when Israel was exposed as having planned the Lebanon war well before Hezbullah ambushed their soldiers in 2006. This, like that, is premeditated aggression.
Why do you say you're Muslim, when you reject a major part of the Quran? Maybe you should try the Baha'i faith or something.
Second of all, re-read 94 again. You will see that it makes clear that only the tribes which DONT uphold their peace treaties should be attacked. That sounds fair to me.
Then read 96, which says you should protect those who want protection.
Really I think if you are saying that entire Suras of the Quran are evil, you should really switch to another religion.
Peace.
It's the other way round. It's because I don't believe these bad things that I am a Muslim. If I believed in this cruelty, it would mean I believed God was unjusted, so I couldn't be a muslim. But because I know it is a false chapter, I know God is just, that is why I am a Muslim. So we should thank Allah that it does not begin with Bismi Allahi alrrahmani alrraheemi.
You see this is the nature of God's power. When the wrong minded people try to stick something false in the Quran, God prevents them from sealing their bad work.
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Really?
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/9/5/default.htm
Yet you're still making mistakes in understanding the voilence in this sura, here in the sura the God has ordered to kill the infidels when the forbidden month finished. They will kill them if they will refuse Islam again as a last chance for them to enter to Islam or the punishment is killing them . it sounds normal and fair because if they didn't kill them, those bunch of infidels will kill Muslims by way ot another they will also think the same thoughts about attacking Muslims, because God knows what they hid in their hearts , he ordered to kill them if they didn't change their behaviours over Muslims "hatred and doctrine" about Muslims community. Do you read the Qur'an ? if Yes go look for the lost nations who they were killed by angels . this is voilence but serving the Muslims and Islam which is the Din of God.
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They will kill them if they will refuse Islam again as a last chance for them to enter to Islam or the punishment is killing them . it sounds normal and fair because if they didn't kill them, those bunch of infidels will kill Muslims by way ot another they will also think the same thoughts about attacking Muslims, because God knows what they hid in their hearts
Yes, I do read the Quran, and I have heard this explanation before. But it's exactly what I described - pre-emptive sectarian violence, as well as genocide and forced conversion. It may have sounded reasonable to a 7th Century medieval audiance but it doesn't meet modern standards of human rights. I don't at all want to be judgemental of our ancestors, but it isn't a satisfactory teaching for the modern world, so I can't consider divinely guided.
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Yes, I do read the Quran, and I have heard this explanation before. But it's exactly what I described - pre-emptive sectarian violence, as well as genocide and forced conversion. It may have sounded reasonable to a 7th Century medieval audiance but it doesn't meet modern standards of human rights. I don't at all want to be judgemental of our ancestors, but it isn't a satisfactory teaching for the modern world, so I can't consider divinely guided.
the new modern standrads for human right !!! ??? usa and Europe who they're calling communities for human rights issues, they are the first who they broke the laws of human rights and they interfered in everyone's business let alone that their laws of human rights based first of all in the human rights from Islam laws.
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Wakas - Actually, when verses contradict each other so directly it doesn't mean you interpret them differently. You can only interpret them differently when they are unspecific and leave room for doubt. When they contradict each other without leaving room for doubt, that means you have to question their veracity, or at the very least take the Shia approach of saying only God understands their true meaning and that they are too complicated for human minds. But then that isn't really helpful as if a book is to complex to be understood, that it is the fault of the writer, not the reader.
Thanks for the vague and non-evidenced based rebuttal.
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the new modern standrads for human right !!! ??? usa and Europe who they're calling communities for human rights issues, they are the first who they broke the laws of human rights and they interfered in everyone's business let alone that their laws of human rights based first of all in the human rights from Islam laws.
Well actually, there were empires in the Middle East before there were empires in Europe so you can't go saying the Europeans were the first to break laws of human rights.
If you say Human Rights laws originate from Islam and God's teachings, then yes, I agree, but muslim empires do not have a very good history of putting these into practise - they've all practised slavery.
Wakas - one vague and non-evidenced based post deserves another. But if you do want me to be specific, the text in verse 4 and verse 5 do not leave room for doubt. Verse 4 (free minds translation) says "continue the pledge with them until its expiry". Hence Verse 5 means that when the treaty expires, wage war. That is aggression.
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Well actually, there were empires in the Middle East before there were empires in Europe so you can't go saying the Europeans were the first to break laws of human rights.
If you say Human Rights laws originate from Islam and God's teachings, then yes, I agree, but muslim empires do not have a very good history of putting these into practise - they've all practised slavery.
No, You're wrong because there were Jewish who they killed the prophets then after them there were christian who they were killings and crusifying people in the name of God let alone stealing and make people slaves then after hundreds of years we have heard that arab in the middle east were also making people slaves but not for a long time when Islam came , changed this situation.
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Wage "war" upon whom? Any and everyone? Let me simplify for you
Let's say a group of people contains people who are upholding the treaty, and people who are not. Pretty simple so far.
91-3 refers to those who broke the treaty. How do we know this? Because 94 says EXCEPT those who did not. So, when it continues with 95 with "fa/so/then" which is a "resumption particle" according to corpus.quran.com who could it possibly be referring to? Could it possibly be the people NOT an exception to the rule? Well, not only is this common in everyday language, but becomes blatantly obvious from the context of 95. I note you did not answer whom the "repent" refers to. Could it possibly refer to the same people the word "repent" refers to in 93? It is those who broke the treaty in 93.
In other words, the Arabic, the logic, cross-reference and flow of the verses only points to one answer.
Also, you make a blatant error in 95 by saying it is when the treaty expires, it says when the restricted months are passed!
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Wage "war" upon whom? Any and everyone? Let me simplify for you
Let's say a group of people contains people who are upholding the treaty, and people who are not. Pretty simple so far.
91-3 refers to those who broke the treaty. How do we know this? Because 94 says EXCEPT those who did not. So, when it continues with 95 with "fa/so/then" which is a "resumption particle" according to corpus.quran.com who could it possibly be referring to? Could it possibly be the people NOT an exception to the rule? Well, not only is this common in everyday language, but becomes blatantly obvious from the context of 95. I note you did not answer whom the "repent" refers to. Could it possibly refer to the same people the word "repent" refers to in 93? It is those who broke the treaty in 93.
In other words, the Arabic, the logic, cross-reference and flow of the verses only points to one answer.
Also, you make a blatant error in 95 by saying it is when the treaty expires, it says when the restricted months are passed!
That's because it says in 94 "you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry". Then "So when the restricted months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them". These statements are right next to each other! Continue the treaty until its expiry, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them.
If it means "only some polytheists" then it is really, really badly written, and thus not divine. It should say "fight those who fight you" like it does in Sura 2. But it's not just this - the whole tone of Chapter 9 is awful and sectarian. It's written in the "vengeful god" style of the old testament.
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That's because it says in 94 "you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry". Then "So when the restricted months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them". These statements are right next to each other! Continue the treaty until its expiry, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them.
If it means "only some polytheists" then it is really, really badly written, and thus not divine. It should say "fight those who fight you" like it does in Sura 2. But it's not just this - the whole tone of Chapter 9 is awful and sectarian. It's written in the "vengeful god" style of the old testament.
Please read 913. It puts a different light on 95
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are those who acknowledge.
I can't believe you would reject a whole sura just because it doesn't sound like something Jesus would say. How did you expect the early Muslims to survive when they were being ambushed by the Meccans all the time, risking total destruction??? That is who this verse is referring to...
Maybe there's a better religion for you, where you can all play with bunny rabbits and frolic in the dandelions and daisies all day. You're really not Muslim.
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Thank you for conclusively proving my point.
That's because it says in 94 "you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry". Then "So when the restricted months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them". These statements are right next to each other! Continue the treaty until its expiry, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them.
On the one hand you admit it is "you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry" in 94 but on the other hand admit it is "so when the restricted months have passed" in 95.
So clearly it is not referring to the same thing, and ergo not the same people!Perhaps it is you who is easily confused, and not The Quran.
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Well no, it's not clear because it's not giving the background context you're talking about. It's a strong argument against Quran Aloners that this passage seems to assume so much knowledge - what is all the fighting about? What are the treaties that have been broken? What kind of treaty violation justifies such extraordinary violence?
I accept that your explanation of the verses makes the most sense. However they're still bad verses. It says "kill the pagans" and leaves you to look around for what 'rules of war' it is supposing. In the modern world that would be bad. In the middle ages it was a terrible thing to do. And the rest of the chapter very much has the vengeful God tone which reminds one of crowds of frenzied people waving around banners saying "Death to those who insult the Prophet". It puts anger first and purpose second.
It also does not state that ALL the people who have not "signed a treaty" are guilty of crimes which justify the waging of war against them. This is the fundamental problem. Other parts of the Quran are so much more specific. It says, in your version, "KILL THE POLYTHEISTS" except those with whom you have a treaty. Is that really your idea of the voice of God?
It goes on to rant about the crimes committed by bad people, but anyone can do that. Anyone can say "Those gypsies/Jews/Muslims/blacks/whites/Asians murdered children, stole land, killed the Prophets/Saints/Dewas", anything you like. It's very good at whipping up emotions but it is not directly relating crime and punishment. It does not justify saying "Kill the gypsies/Jews/Muslims/blacks/whites/Asians, where you find them, except those you have a treaty with, until they give zakat and make salat". That's just whipping up a lynch mob.
Yes other bits of the Quran may specify better the rules of war, and you can say the reader is meant to understand how to cross reference. But the tone of chapter 9 is not a "wait a minute, before you run off to slaughter polythists, turn your texts to sura X ayat Y and remember not to hurt innocent people". The tone of chapter 9 is more like verse 14 - "Fight/kill them, God tortures them with your hands and He shames/disgraces them and He gives you victory/aid on (over) them, and He cures/heals (the) chests (innermosts of) a believing nation."
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Salam to everyone.
I apologize if I have made a mistake "liquiddharma", but it seems to me that you are not a muslim but a hindu, from you name "liquid" "dharma", as "dharma" in sankrit is the word for "religion", and the verse 95, is usually quoted by hindus who want to bash quran, and muslims, i have no problem with you being a hindu or arguing against quran, but some brothers and sisters may confuse you with being a muslim. If I am mistaken I sincerely apologise. Peace -
Peace Seattletruth,
Thanks for sharing.
Maybe the missing Basmallah doesn't have to do with code 19, considering the ordering of the Quran was relatively arbitrary anyway, just like the names for the suras.
The ordering of the great reading is not arbitrary like the names of the chapters. We can see the same order in all the manuscripts. The order is not chronological or by subject matter but strangely enough in line with other amazing things about the great reading the order does work beautifully.
On the other hand, early manuscripts of the great reading had no chapter titles and the only separators were the Bismallahs. So we know for a fact that chapter titles are manmade additions.
This explanation does hold some weight though, because
it also explains why sura 8 (which is the ONLY sura that is under 100 verses long, up til sura 13) was still placed at front of the Quran.I wouldn't put much weight on the chapter being under 100 verses long. On the other hand, there are two additional observations that you
didn't mention- What is currently chapter 9 clearly continues the same theme of war in chapter 8.
- It also follows the same rhyme as chapter 8.
As for the Hadith that you quoted, like all Hadiths it can only reflect the discussions going on during the 9th centrury Abassid period. So all that this Hadith tells us is that even as late as the 9th century there were discussions on whether chapter 9 is part of chapter 8 and the issue was not settled yet like it is nowadays.
Funny enough, I remember reading Ayman's post in which
he said that there is no reason to assume that sura 9 isn't just a continuation of sura 8. Well, he could be part right.The only way for anyone to believe that chapter 9 is a separate chapter from chapter 8 is to make a silent and false assumption that manmade chapter titles and geometric shapes forming the separators decorating the chapters were inspired by the god. So to me there is absolutely no doubt that chapter 9 is part of chapter 8 and that the great reading has only 113 chapters.
Peace,
Ayman
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Thanks for sharing.
The ordering of the great reading is not arbitrary like the names of the chapters. We can see the same order in all the manuscripts. The order is not chronological or by subject matter but strangely enough in line with other amazing things about the great reading the order does work beautifully.
That's great but who cares about the manuscripts? How do I know who wrote the manuscripts? What if it was some devil who wanted to cast doubt on the text? The Quran NEVER tells us about masahif. Rather it tells us about dhikr, the memorised. Memorised recitations are vocalised so we wont have ambiguities like you suggested for ar-rum. What you insinuated before is that God gave us a text which can EITHER say 'the romans defeated' or 'the romans WERE defeated'. That's absurd.
The only way for anyone to believe that chapter 9 is a separate chapter from chapter 8 is to make a silent and false assumption that manmade chapter titles and geometric shapes forming the separators decorating the chapters were inspired by the god. So to me there is absolutely no doubt that chapter 9 is part of chapter 8 and that the great reading has only 113 chapters.
Precisely. The basmalah is the indicator of the start of a new chapter. There can be no new chapter without the basmalah.
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You're right that The Quran does assume some things sometimes, e.g. basic logic from the reader.
As it clearly states, it is for those who think.
Basic logic says that "kill the polytheists" is advocating genocide. Since you haven't bothered to answer my points I presume you agree but don't want to give up on a very convenient way of thinking, that the Quran is without fault even when faults are glaring at your very eyes. As you say, it is for those who think. But thinking works both ways.
Salam to everyone.
I apologize if I have made a mistake "liquiddharma", but it seems to me that you are not a muslim but a hindu, from you name "liquid" "dharma", as "dharma" in sankrit is the word for "religion", and the verse 95, is usually quoted by hindus who want to bash quran, and muslims, i have no problem with you being a hindu or arguing against quran, but some brothers and sisters may confuse you with being a muslim. If I am mistaken I sincerely apologise. PeaceDon't worry, you don't have anything to apologise for, it's your first post so you can't have offended anyone already. I am a muslim who happens to like some sanskrit words. I associate the concept of "dharma" in Buddhism and Hinduism, meaning "the way things are", with the the concept of surrender which is Islam, as in dharma is the flow of the universe surrendering to Allah, the creator.
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Peace Abdalquran,
That's great but who cares about the manuscripts?
The great reading is constantly described as a "kitab", a written document. So certainly the written word is important and in fact we are clearly told that the god teached by the PEN not by the SOUND (see chapter 96).
How do I know who wrote the manuscripts?
How do you know who transmitted something from memory? If anything memory is much more likely to fail to preserve something than written words. Try it yourself. Memorize something without writing it and then 1 month later try to recall it. Now write down something and 1 month later try to recall it. I guarantee that your recollection will be much more accurate of what you wrote since what you wrote would still be the same exactly the way you wrote it while your memory will not.
What if it was some devil who wanted to cast doubt on the text?
What if some devil changed the way something sounds or even changed words. Everything you say is equally or more applicable to memory.
The Quran NEVER tells us about masahif.
The great reading clearly tells us that it is a written document. In fact, this is emphasized in the very beginning on page 2
22 This is the book no doubt in it guidance for the forethoughtful.
Rather it tells us about dhikr, the memorised.
Dhikr doesn't mean "memorized", it means rememberance. There is a huge difference between memorization and rememberance. Anyone can blindly memorize something without understanding a word of it. In fact, there are many people in the world who memorized the great reading without understanding a word of it. So the god clearly never tells us to memorize it.
On the other hand, rememberance requires understanding and not necessarily memorization. For example, one can write something down so that he remembers it later. So writing is a way to remember. Rememberance comes with understanding that triggers an action on your part. So for example, when you remember that the great reading tells you to speak gently and not scream then you lower the tone of your voice. On the other hand, wrought memorization without understanding doesn't accomplish anything.
Do you think that the many bearded Taliban who memorize by heart the great reading and yet discard it and follow Hadiths, remember anything of it when they are stoning people or killing innocent civilians or throwing acid on the faces of girls who go to school? They memorize but don't remember.
Memorised recitations are vocalised so we wont have ambiguities like you suggested for ar-rum. What you insinuated before is that God gave us a text which can EITHER say 'the romans defeated' or 'the romans WERE defeated'. That's absurd.
By the same token when the text says "obey the messenger" this can either say "obey the Hadiths" or "obey the message".
In fact, just look at the often many vastly different interpretations of most passages in the great reading and you will see that vocalization doesn't eliminate ambiguity as you imagine. People are going to have different interpretations no matter what. Vocalization is an interpretation device. The context is what reduces ambiguity. In the case of the Romans the context and the rest of the great reading describing Trinitarians as unappreciative rejecters clearly indicate that there is no way that those who have faith would be happy for a victory by the Roman Trinitarians.
Context is what matters. So for example, without vocalization case endings, then the following passage from 3528 can be interpreted as "the god fears the knowledgeable from his servants" or "the knowledgeable from the god's servants fear god"
Now even if the vocalization case ending had said "the god fears the knowledgeable from his servants" then this would still be wrong given the context and common sense. So the vocalization case ending is irrelevant and people will use the context anyway to determine the meaning.
This and the fact that the great reading was clearly meant to be recited without vocalization case endings is why EVERYONE, for example, recites the beginning of chapter 55 as follows
Alraham allam alquran
NOT
Alrahmanu allam alqurana
Precisely. The basmalah is the indicator of the start of a new chapter. There can be no new chapter without the basmalah.
Exactly. So it is certainly true that the great reading has 113 chapters.
Peace,
Ayman
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Exactly. So it is certainly true that the great reading has 113 chapters.
I agree... The bigger question is... When, and why, did people start assuming that Sura 9 is its own sura, not simply a continuation, as Uthman was supposedly lead to believe?
Does anybody have any evidence from old Uthmanic manuscripts if Sura 9 was started on a new page?
