Difference between Hadith and Sunnah
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why do you always mention that hadith can be fabricated ? how about the peoms before Islam, I have poems of people before the birth of the prophet , why they didn't fabricated as well ???????????????
How do you know the poems written before the birth of the prophet are in exactly the same form as they were then. I find it hard to believe that there are any works of older literature that have not been changed or manipulated in anyway, with the original being lost.
We are only told of one unchanged source, that is the Quran.
Peace
Kukumber
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How do you know the poems written before the birth of the prophet are in exactly the same form as they were then. I find it hard to believe that there are any works of older literature that have not been changed or manipulated in anyway, with the original being lost.
We are only told of one unchanged source, that is the Quran.
Peace
Kukumber
Besides, even if the poetry is fake, it doesn't matter that much since we're not establishing religious rules from them.
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Salamo Alaykom,
woow , you're so clever , can I know how you came to this conclusion?
There are more than 20 nation of Arabs , do you know what cind of Arabs mentioned in this verse ?
who tells you that "a jewish man, or a christian man ????
Selam
Obviously not as clever as you. You are much too clever for me. ;D This is not my conclusion but Aidid Safar in his book 'Mental Bondage'. You may even like to search it sometime.
Peace
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How do you know the poems written before the birth of the prophet are in exactly the same form as they were then. I find it hard to believe that there are any works of older literature that have not been changed or manipulated in anyway, with the original being lost.
We are only told of one unchanged source, that is the Quran.
Peace
Kukumberhow I know ?? are you kidding >>>> this is History . the poems that were before were so Hard, so no chance from someone to distorte them, you'll know that if you're reading them, as an arabic man these poems are impossible to distorte them ( language skills and peom's subject), why Quran is in Arabic language , why ? because People there the Arabs people have reached a state of making good sentences and miraculous sentences and God challenged them by Qur'an where the style of language was so different of what they used to make.
I knew a poem and the miracle of this poem that I can read it in three ways and every way with a different subject.
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Muslims don't learn to pray by reading hadith, they learn from their parents, who learned from their parents, who learned from their parents, and so on, and so on. These day to day practices (in my opinion) would be difficult to fabricate or insert in to the religion. So to me that would be following the Sunna.
The hadith then expound on the sunna, which I think is what the original post is trying to say. Because they are transmitted orally and not physical day to day actions it is easier for fabrications to slip in. I am not trying to say all hadiths are fabrications, that is not what I personally believe. But we do know from the fact the Bukhari rejected so many that there were people who were fabricating hadith and attributing them to the prophet.
I totally agree. The scope of sunnah should be limited to key practical issues such as praying, fasting etc.
What do you think?
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Selam Recluse
I havent read all his views but some I have and feel they agree with my views. Is there anythink specific or was you looking for a general view?
Peace
Salam hope4
I was just curious. Because I thought you posted some verses which were meant to refute Dr. Zaheer's position.
Peace
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I totally agree. The scope of sunnah should be limited to key practical issues such as praying, fasting etc.
What do you think?
Oh really? ! But there is only 3 prayers in the koran!!
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why do you always mention that hadith can be fabricated ?
In his opening statement, Bukhari (considered to be the #1 source of authentic Hadith) states that out of nearly 600,000 Hadith's which were known to him at the time, he could only record 7,397 as being authentic from the prophet.
This is a recognition by the upholders of Hadith that at least 98.76%, of what people are led to believe is the 2nd revelation to the Quran and a major source of Islamic law, is pure lies!
...As we mentioned before, within a short span of 200 years from the Prophet's death (only 130 years from the lifting of the ban) there were over 600,000 Hadith's floating around at the time of Bukhari which were all attributed to the Prophet. Bukhari himself admitted to spending nearly 40 years studying the Hadith's and could only verify the chain of transmission from 1.24% of the total!
http//www.free-minds.org/hadithmyth
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In his opening statement, Bukhari (considered to be the #1 source of authentic Hadith) states that out of nearly 600,000 Hadith's which were known to him at the time, he could only record 7,397 as being authentic from the prophet.
This is a recognition by the upholders of Hadith that at least 98.76%, of what people are led to believe is the 2nd revelation to the Quran and a major source of Islamic law, is pure lies!
...As we mentioned before, within a short span of 200 years from the Prophet's death (only 130 years from the lifting of the ban) there were over 600,000 Hadith's floating around at the time of Bukhari which were all attributed to the Prophet. Bukhari himself admitted to spending nearly 40 years studying the Hadith's and could only verify the chain of transmission from 1.24% of the total!
http//www.free-minds.org/hadithmyth
Also, there isn't even one hadith of Abu Hanifa in Bukhari's collection, which gives you an idea about Bukhari. Abu Hanifa is the great founder of the Sunni Hanafi school of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence). He was also one of the Tabi?un, the generation after the Sahaba (companions). Bukhari totally ignored someone of his calibre, while he continued collecting ahadith from untrustworthy and uneducated people.
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Also, there isn't even one hadith of Abu Hanifa in Bukhari's collection, which gives you an idea about Bukhari. Abu Hanifa is the great founder of the Sunni Hanafi school of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence). He was also one of the Tabi?un, the generation after the Sahaba (companions). Bukhari totally ignored someone of his calibre, while he continued collecting ahadith from untrustworthy and uneducated people.
Good, you have mentioned Abu Hanifa, who got their ahadith and lessons from the sons of the freiends of the prophet; what you don't know his famous quote " " ". to resume he was a follower of hadith which means that hadith existed before Bukhari.
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Background
You can read some of these articles
http//www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Adis-DuderijaSUNNAH AND HADITH -A COMPARISON http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=223
DEVELOPMENT OF SECTERIANISM IN ISLAM PART ONE http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=383
DEVELOPMENT OF SECTERIANISM IN ISLAM PART TWO
http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=384
AHADITH AND POLITICS IN EARLY MUSLIM COMMUNITY http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=332
DIVERSITY AND SHARI'AH http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=338
DEBATES AMONG MUSLIMS ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE PROPHETIC AUTHORITY-IMPLICATIONS FOR THE ROLE OF ISLAM IN THE WORLD TODAY http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=339
SUNNAH AS DEPENDENT UPON HADITH ? ACHRONOLOGICAL ANALYSIS PART 1 http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=375
SUNNAH AS DEPENDENT UPON HADITH ? ACHRONOLOGICAL ANALYSIS PART 2 http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=376
MONOPOLISING ISLAM http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=190
CHANGES IN THE MEANING AND THE FUNCTION OF THE CONCEPTS OF SUNNAH AND HADITH http//www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=374
Using
http//www.archive.orgIf you cant find a specific one, email the author, or personal message me.
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Muslims don't learn to pray by reading hadith, they learn from their parents, who learned from their parents, who learned from their parents, and so on, and so on. These day to day practices (in my opinion) would be difficult to fabricate or insert in to the religion. So to me that would be following the Sunna.
The hadith then expound on the sunna, which I think is what the original post is trying to say. Because they are transmitted orally and not physical day to day actions it is easier for fabrications to slip in. I am not trying to say all hadiths are fabrications, that is not what I personally believe. But we do know from the fact the Bukhari rejected so many that there were people who were fabricating hadith and attributing them to the prophet.
Actually there is good detail in hadith about how to pray although it?s in a number of ahadith not just one singular hadith. If the hadith expound on sunnah how can you be sure it?s accurate? Realistically you can?t it?s an assumption that numbers = accuracy but logically that?s not justifiable. Besides hadiths could be fabricated to support current practices, or is that to mind boggling to accept?
Things could be difficult to fabricate yes but it is also easy to misguide ignorant people.
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There's no hadith which tells you how to pray from start to finish. For something as 'important' as ritual prayers, one would think the Prophet would explain it very clearly and unambigously.
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There's no hadith which tells you how to pray from start to finish. For something as 'important' as ritual prayers, one would think the Prophet would explain it very clearly and unambigously.
Selam
I agree with you. Its no wonder every sect has their own variations. If it was important I am sure diligent measures would have been taken by the prophet to compile a book along side the Quran to explain things which people feel the Quran has not explained and not let anyone else try to compile it for him.
Peace
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There's no hadith which tells you how to pray from start to finish. For something as 'important' as ritual prayers, one would think the Prophet would explain it very clearly and unambigously.
I didn't say there was a hadith that gives you a step by step analysis on prayer. i said there is good detail in hadith about how to pray.
i'll show you an example
in Abu dawud's book
Narrated Rifa'ah ibn Rafi' A man entered the mosque...... He then narrated the tradition like the one narrated in (No.855). This version is as follows The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said The prayer of anyone is not perfect unless he performs ablution perfectly; he should then utter the takbir, and praise Allah, the Exalted, and admire Him; he should then recite the Qur'an as much as he desires. He should then say "Allah is Most Great". Next he should bow so that all his joints return to their proper places. Then he should say "Allah listens to the one who praises Him", and stand erect. He should then say"Allah is most great," and shouldprostrate himself so that all his joints are completely at rest. Then he should say "Allah is most great"; he should raise his head (at the end of prostration) till he sits erect. Then he should say "Allah is most great"; then he should prostrate himself till all his joints return to their proper places. Then he should raise his head and say the takbir. When he does so, then his prayer is completed. (Book #3, Hadith #0856)
To me, that's a pretty clear mimic of sunni prayers. abu dawud has more hadiths with similar detail..
about rakat just type "rakat" in a sahih bukhari search, and a whole list of it will come up.. pages and pages.. i wasn't bothered filtering it.
Blessing the prophet
sahih muslim
Abdullah b. Zaid-he who was shown the call (for prayer in a dream) narrated it on the authority of Mas'ad al-Ansiri who said We were sitting in the company of Sa'id b. 'Ubida when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to us. Bashir b. S'ad said Allah has commanded us to bless you. Messenger of Allah! But how should we bless you? He (the narrator) said The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) kept quiet (and we were so much perturbed over his silence) that we wished we had not asked him. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said (For blessing me) say" 0 Allah, bless Muhammad and the members of his household as Thou didst bless the mernbers of ibrahim's household. Grant favours to Muhammad and the members of his household as Thou didst grant favours to the members of the household of ibrahim in the world. Thou art indeed Praiseworthy and Glorious" ; and salutation as you know. (Book #004, Hadith #0803)
The above doesn't mention how in prayer, sunni's incorporate it in prayer. there might be other hadiths about tashahhud in prayer.. i recall reading one ages ago i just don't remember the details maybe this was it.
My point is this "sunnah" exists in hadith, yes it might be fragmented but it is there. there is hadith evidence of today's prayer practices.. to assume that hadith's don't have it and that it must be a "true sunnah" is false, that was my earlier point.
peace
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i said there is good detail in hadith about how to pray.
Fine but they are in fragments. That tells us the 'Prophet' didnt bother to get all the sahabas together , sit them down, tell them exactly what to do. And why not? Because he never instructed it.
Look at the hadith you quoted, it doesn't even mention the tashahud or the rakat.
My point is this "sunnah" exists in hadith, yes it might be fragmented but it is there. there is hadith evidence of today's prayer practices.. to assume that hadith's don't have it and that it must be a "true sunnah" is false, that was my earlier point.
Hadith is not 'evidence' of today's prayer. Today's prayer was legitimised by the fabrication of hadith. I don't know what you mean by 'true sunnah', sorry?
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I know they are fragments, hadith isn't as "detailed" as every sunni/shia thinks it is. so realistically they need to re-evaluate their views.
I know those hadith didn't mention tashahud or rakat, just saying it has detail on prayer practices that happen today
Hadith is not 'evidence' of today's prayer. Today's prayer was legitimised by the fabrication of hadith. I don't know what you mean by 'true sunnah', sorry?
maybe it is the other way around, hadith was fabricated to support peoples practices. though today what people know is what is in books or what their forefathers preach. they have 'documented' (apparent) evidence of so called truth. it's their choice to blindly accept it but we all know the study of hadith isn't as lofty as the scholars make it out to be; the lack of consistency, contradictions, nonsensical claims.. it's quite disturbing.
about 'true sunnah'. in this thread people are discussing a sunnah is a practice which may not have been documented in any hadith and thus the practice must be a legitimate 'sunnah' of the prophet. prayer was one of these so called sunnah examples. so i was trying to refute that claim. there is "some" documentation and even if there wasn't that's not a good enough reason to claim the practice is a sunnah
