off topic from Re: The 5 stages of a Muslim turning Quran Aloner
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Dear Ayisha
I think you are getting your tongue in a twist. Nobody worships the Prophet PBUH. We only worship Allah SWT. Period. This is the fundamental of Tawhid.
What you (PM's) don't seem to grasp is that the Prophet PBUH showed us in practice everything that we are supposed to do in the Quran and from the Quran. How to pray, how to fast, how to perform pilgrimage, how to marry, how to give in charity, how to treat the elderly , orphans, the poor and the wayfarers, how to conduct business, how to treat thy neighbour, how to distribute wealth etc etc. I have said it before and will say it again, if the Prophet PBUH had to deliver the Message in a clear and concise manner, then he had to understand every word of the Quran, both literally and physically because Allah SWT taught him, and then Prophet PBUH showed his companions, then the rest of the believers, who then showed their communities/progeny and so and so forth. If the Quran has been delivered for every Tom, Dick and Harry to interperate as they wish, then Allah SWT would never have used the Prophet PBUH to deliver the message over a 23 year period. It would have been placed on a rock in one full volume overnight, for everyone to grab, copy and interperate as they wish.
Let's take your stance for the moment and say okay, let's put everything to the side. I will be grateful of your understanding of the concept of prayer and pilgrimage. How do you do it and how would you advise someone like me to do it?
Peace
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You don't even make difference between perfect and complete , so how you'll know other things? .
well, hadith is not an add-on for Quran, it is the second ligeslation after ligeslation in Quran. and they are totally separated from each other (Quran is in a book and hadith is in another book).
let me remind you that we believe in Quran and hadith, look at your side you believe in one thing and you might be wrong in understanding it , so after all you're the loser.
one more thing " don't put words in my mouth".If something is perfect it is complete. Allah said both those words in reference to Quran.
saying hadith is the 2nd legislation IS ADDING it to the religion. Quran says you need no other book so why do you use another book?
'we' believe in........ who is the 'we' you are referring to? it doesnt include me and many like me, it may be what you believe but its not what I believe, I believe Allah made it clear we need nothing else after Quran, and hadith do NOT explain Quran and do NOT make understanding it easier, in fact hadith make a whole new religion based on what people said the prophet said, when many are clearly NOT from a prophet or anything to do with the relgion Allah sent WITH those prophets
call me a loser if it makes you feel better and more superior, your words dont harm me or my belief in God and His books. peace
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If something is perfect it is complete. Allah said both those words in reference to Quran.
this in english , not in Arabic >>>>>>>Quran is Arab, so you'll not understand it without the Arabic language. The translation just gave you an Idea about a verse but surely it'll stay an Idea wich can be wrong or a little bit right.
saying hadith is the 2nd legislation IS ADDING it to the religion. Quran says you need no other book so why do you use another book?
well, the second time adding to religion is different from adding in Quran, your posts are a mess .
'we' believe in........ who is the 'we' you are referring to? it doesnt include me and many like me, it may be what you believe but its not what I believe, I believe Allah made it clear we need nothing else after Quran, and hadith do NOT explain Quran and do NOT make understanding it easier, in fact hadith make a whole new religion based on what people said the prophet said, when many are clearly NOT from a prophet or anything to do with the relgion Allah sent WITH those prophets
you did the same thing "we need nothing else after Quran" ..who is the "we" you are referring to? it doesn't include me and many like me rotfl>>>> try to read my post very well.
call me a loser if it makes you feel better and more superior, your words dont harm me or my belief in God and His books. peace
this is not about feeling better, or more superior . This is about a fish out of water.
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Dear Ayisha
I think you are getting your tongue in a twist. Nobody worships the Prophet PBUH. We only worship Allah SWT. Period. This is the fundamental of Tawhid.
dear zulu, in every book I have read on tawhid there is very little from Quran and heaps from hadith, THAT is not tawhid. Tawhid is the worship of Allah ALONE.What you (PM's) don't seem to grasp is that the Prophet PBUH showed us in practice everything that we are supposed to do in the Quran and from the Quran. How to pray, how to fast, how to perform pilgrimage, how to marry, how to give in charity, how to treat the elderly , orphans, the poor and the wayfarers, how to conduct business, how to treat thy neighbour, how to distribute wealth etc etc. I have said it before and will say it again, if the Prophet PBUH had to deliver the Message in a clear and concise manner, then he had to understand every word of the Quran, both literally and physically because Allah SWT taught him, and then Prophet PBUH showed his companions, then the rest of the believers, who then showed their communities/progeny and so and so forth. If the Quran has been delivered for every Tom, Dick and Harry to interperate as they wish, then Allah SWT would never have used the Prophet PBUH to deliver the message over a 23 year period. It would have been placed on a rock in one full volume overnight, for everyone to grab, copy and interperate as they wish.
Let's take your stance for the moment and say okay, let's put everything to the side. I will be grateful of your understanding of the concept of prayer and pilgrimage. How do you do it and how would you advise someone like me to do it?
Peace
with respect sir, the prophet delivered the message AS IT WAS GIVEN to him. RECITE he was told and recite he did. He also made it clear NOT to take anything from him but Quran, he would not have DARED add anything else! Now you are saying that Allah gave him the 'details' of how to do these things and didnt put them in Quran? Allah says this book is DETAILED and ALL THINGS are explained, then why did he give a secret other message to Muhammed that one would have to BE THERE to see? that makes the Quran NOT for all and NOT for all times. There is NO proof good enough for me that Muhammed said or did ANYTHING that is in hadith, these are stories passed on for over 200 years after he died and picked up by some other men (Bukhari, Muslim). As for hajj, the Quran says to visit the sacred mosque if you can, it does not say run around the hills and kiss a black stone! THAT is shirk, THAT is doing something as part of a religion that God gave and He did NOT give those details, people were performing the pilgrimage long before Muhammed was born! yes you are supposed to read it for yourself and yes you are supposed to think what it says and use it for YOU. That is the test of faith, that is the test of who you are inside. Some read and see fighting and wars, others read and see beauty and signs of Gods creation, thats where the test is.
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so you'll not understand it without the Arabic language.
I was wondering when that one would come in rotflwell, the second time adding to religion is different from adding in Quran,
you are adding to the religion, Allah told you the religion is complete so why do you add to it?
you did the same thing "we need nothing else after Quran" ..who is the "we" you are referring to? it doesn't include me and many like me rotfl>>>> try to read my post very well.
Oh I am reading very well, you need something after Quran and I dont, I believe Allah and you dont. fine by me, you believe what you want and I believe what I want, lakum deenukum wa liya deenthis is not about feeling better, or more superior . This is about a fish out of water.
Then get back in the pond
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guys, look at this the original thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596813.0 has only 43 replys! And here we have more than 200 replies!!! Hadith is so popular among the quraniyoons elhamdulillah!!!
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I was wondering when that one would come in rotfl
well, keep laughing, you'll need it in adversity.
you are adding to the religion, Allah told you the religion is complete so why do you add to it?
Again, I don't add to the religion, do you know what they mean by Kiyass""? if you don't , read this it's a new ligeslation taken from another ligeslation in Quran, it is not the same one but the new ligeslation is typically leads us to the ligeslation in Quran>> so this is not adding things to religion.
Oh I am reading very well, you need something after Quran and I dont, I believe Allah and you dont. fine by me, you believe what you want and I believe what I want, lakum deenukum wa liya deen
well, I belive in Quran and I do believe in God, so don't put words in my mouth for the third times.
and about the verse that you have stated is for someone is not belong to the same religion (christian, jewish, atheits,...etc) not someone Muslim. so again your posts are a mess.Then get back in the pond
the fish is you and it is a proverb .
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guys, look at this the original thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596813.0 has only 43 replys! And here we have more than 200 replies!!! Hadith is so popular among the quraniyoons elhamdulillah!!!
Nice shot >>> you know that they might be angry now rotfl
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Guys sorry , time to get some sleep. have a nice chat.
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well, keep laughing, you'll need it in adversity.
Again, I don't add to the religion, do you know what they mean by Kiyass""? if you don't , read this it's a new ligeslation taken from another ligeslation in Quran, it is not the same one but the new ligeslation is typically leads us to the ligeslation in Quran>> so this is not adding things to religion.
well, I belive in Quran and I do believe in God, so don't put words in my mouth for the third times.
and about the verse that you have stated is for someone is not belong to the same religion (christian, jewish, atheits,...etc) not someone Muslim. so again your posts are a mess.
the fish is you and it is a proverb .you said adding to the religion is not adding to Quran, now you say you dont add to the religion when you clearly said you do.
The verses did not SAY christian or Jew and Quran says these ARE from the same religion, the religion of God as He gave them the Books too.
ooh a proverb, you are sooo clever hail
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Dear Ayisha
Many thanks for your partial reply. I am assuming you are still trying to work out the concept of prayer, therefore could not answer. No problem take your time as this seems to be a major sticking point for all PM's. You are not alone on this one.
You must learn to practice what you preach. If you actually do read and understand the Quran as you so profusely profess, then what does this ayat mean to you regarding people who used to pray previously at the House
834 But what have they in their favour that God should not chastise them-seeing that they bar from the Inviolable House of Worship, although they are not its guardians? None but the God-conscious can be its guardians but of this most of these are unaware;
835 and their prayers before the Temple are nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Taste then, this chastisement as an outcome of your persistent denial of the truth!
It is not part of Hajj to kiss the black stone as some of you have incorrectly stated. Anyway, do you also believe Tawaf is a form of shirk even though the Quran states
2125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves ."
2226 For, when We assigned unto Abraham the site of this Temple, ?Do not ascribe divinity to aught beside Me!? and ?Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will stand before it , and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves .?
2227 Hence, proclaim thou unto all people the pilgrimage they will come unto thee on foot and on every fast mount, coming from every far-away point , -
2228 so that they might experience much that shall be of benefit to them, and that they might extol the name of God on the days appointed , over whatever heads of cattle He may have provided for them eat, then, thereof, and feed the unfortunate poor.-
2229 Thereafter let them bring to an end their state of self-denial, and let them fulfill the vows which they have made, and let them walk around the Most Ancient Temple.
So please tell me, how exactly would you yourself perform Hajj?
Peace
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Dear Ayisha
Many thanks for your partial reply. I am assuming you are still trying to work out the concept of prayer, therefore could not answer. No problem take your time as this seems to be a major sticking point for all PM's. You are not alone on this one.
Dear Zulu, you assume wrongly sir. I pray as any other muslim prays because thats how I was taught to pray, the 'ritual' as all other muslims do. However, when I actually 'worship' Allah, when I beg His help and when I pour out my heart to Him, that is between me and Him and be sure I am on my knees with my face on the floor bowing to my God. This may be unacceptable to you but thats really not my problem, its yours.You must learn to practice what you preach. If you actually do read and understand the Quran as you so profusely profess, then what does this ayat mean to you regarding people who used to pray previously at the House
834 But what have they in their favour that God should not chastise them-seeing that they bar from the Inviolable House of Worship, although they are not its guardians? None but the God-conscious can be its guardians but of this most of these are unaware;
835 and their prayers before the Temple are nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Taste then, this chastisement as an outcome of your persistent denial of the truth!
This to me means those in Saudi that bar the way of so many who want to visit and pray in the sacred mosque. Those that are hypocrites whose prayers are not from the heart, that do the 'rituals' but do not 'feel'. You say this is referring to the past and yes I agree, but it is also a message and a warning for the future as all Quran is for all times.
It is not part of Hajj to kiss the black stone as some of you have incorrectly stated. Anyway, do you also believe Tawaf is a form of shirk even though the Quran states
2125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves ."
2226 For, when We assigned unto Abraham the site of this Temple, ?Do not ascribe divinity to aught beside Me!? and ?Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will stand before it , and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves .?
2227 Hence, proclaim thou unto all people the pilgrimage they will come unto thee on foot and on every fast mount, coming from every far-away point , -
2228 so that they might experience much that shall be of benefit to them, and that they might extol the name of God on the days appointed , over whatever heads of cattle He may have provided for them eat, then, thereof, and feed the unfortunate poor.-
2229 Thereafter let them bring to an end their state of self-denial, and let them fulfill the vows which they have made, and let them walk around the Most Ancient Temple.
So please tell me, how exactly would you yourself perform Hajj?
Peace
I never said that is a form of shirk, its in Quran to circle the kabaa. I said kissing the black stone is. and although you may say its not part of it, many many do it and they do it because they are told thats what the prophet did.
How would I perform hajj? I have not really thought about it as I have not ever thought I would have the funds to do it. I suppose I would have to do it how everyone there says is 'the right way' but in my heart I wouldnt believe the rituals were 'right', so not much point in thinking of doing it unless some things change really. Also the whole thing I would have to go through getting a 'paper' of proof I am muslim as I didnt get one before I left UK and the Saudi's dont allow people they dont think are right to enter mecca, which I also think is wrong!
Does anyone know how to stop these text boxes from jumping all over the place while replying? its getting REALLY annoying! >(
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Dear Zulu, you assume wrongly sir. I pray as any other muslim prays because thats how I was taught to pray, the 'ritual' as all other muslims do.
I suppose I would have to do it how everyone there says is 'the right way' but in my heart I wouldnt believe the rituals were 'right', so not much point in thinking of doing it unless some things change really. Also the whole thing I would have to go through getting a 'paper' of proof I am muslim as I didnt get one before I left UK and the Saudi's dont allow people they dont think are right to enter mecca, which I also think is wrong!
there is a contradiction in your post. you said for the first paragraph that you pray as all Muslims pray and that you did this ritual act every day as Muslims do, so I supposed that you pray five times a day with Watar and shafe3.
and then you said that Hajj you don't believe that, its ritual are not right and you know that all Muslims do the ritual in Hajj the same way that every Muslim will do. so why you practice the prayer ritual and you'll not practice the Hajj ritual(as all Muslims again).
by the way you don't believe in something, you don't do it / so in your case you're hypocrite . in hadith there is how to pray but you're rejecting hadith , so why do you pray like us ?. -
there is a contradiction in your post. you said for the first paragraph that you pray as all Muslims pray and that you did this ritual act every day as Muslims do, so I supposed that you pray five times a day with Watar and shafe3.
and then you said that Hajj you don't believe that, its ritual are not right and you know that all Muslims do the ritual in Hajj the same way that every Muslim will do. so why you practice the prayer ritual and you'll not practice the Hajj ritual(as all Muslims again).
by the way you don't believe in something, you don't do it / so in your case you're hypocrite . in hadith there is how to pray but you're rejecting hadith , so why do you pray like us ?.there is no contradiction in my post if you can read it properly. I pray as I was taught, although now i do omit the references to Muhammed mostly in my 'ritual' prayer. I have not been taught how to do hajj therefore I wouldnt do it as taught.
Not all muslims pray the same exactly either, it depends on how they were taught. My husband doenst do it exactly like me and vise versa. I said regarding hajj that I dont think running around the hills is right, I did not say walking round the kabba is not right, I did say kissing the black stone is not right.
Please try to understand my posts before you look for holes in them -
Please try to understand my posts before you look for holes in them
Your post is so clear, you don't believe in the ritual of Muslims in praying, but you pray like them because you taught that >>> is this sounds good for you ? or you're in a confusion (I don't know why they pray 4 rak'aht in the noon prayer, but I will do because they do = that's an act of Parrot).
ah by the way salat is one thing, God named salat because it's a connexion between God and his slaves and between the slaves theirseleves, so it must be common the same you do it the same way others do it.
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Your post is so clear, you don't believe in the ritual of Muslims in praying, but you pray like them because you taught that >>> is this sounds good for you ? or you're in a confusion (I don't know why they pray 4 rak'aht in the noon prayer, but I will do because they do = that's an act of Parrot).
ah by the way salat is one thing, God named salat because it's a connexion between God and his slaves and between the slaves theirseleves, so it must be common the same you do it the same way others do it.
an act of parrot you mean?
read again what I said regarding worship and the difference I stated between ritual prayer and worship.