Muslim Prayer in English
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I've Noticed Arabic is easier to Recite then English.
For instance When I say the Al-Fatiha, it is easier to say it in Arabic then English.But I do try to say it in English too so that I remind myself on what I am saying and the concept/principal is reached.
Since I am native english, I vote for Both.
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Dear Wakas
Then how could you give any input into the Quran or understand the Quran if you don't speak, read, write or understand the Arabic language in line with your last comment.
If a person does not know what they are saying, then it goes against AQ, e.g. 443. Simple.
Anyway, forgive me for asking, but are you a Muslim?
Peace
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Dear zulu12,
I strongly recommend you read up on logical fallacies, e.g. http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ and critical thinking.
Just because a person knows Arabic, in fact even if they are a world renowned Arabic linguist, it does not mean they will best understand something in Arabic. At most, all it does is increase their chances of understanding it. If The Quran is from God that means it will be logical, just and consistent to the utmost (as it claims incidentally), thus a person lacking in logic and/or thorough research and/or sincerity/purity of heart will be at a disadvantage when trying to understand it. Does an expert Arabic linguist automatically also have these attributes? Of course not.As a side note, I can read vocalised Arabic text, and understand some words, however with my books/resources I can accurately study any verse in The Quran to a very high level. In fact, I have refuted Arabic speakers on this very forum several times, some of whom acknowledged their error. If these resources are used wisely and combined with the attributes I mentioned above then such a person can speak about The Quran with a high level of accuracy, but I also acknowledge I am an imperfect human being thus what I say will be imperfect, and that is why I try to include a disclaimer in my signature and every article and project I undertake.
But let me put it in a way you might understand...
It is as the saying goes "the proof is in the tasting of the pudding", and in case you do not understand this idiom, it means it is irrelevant who the chef is, even if they claim to be the greatest chef in the entire world, as when it comes to proving it, it will come down to their product/content, i.e. the tastiness of the pudding. In our case, the truthfulness/accuracy of what I say.
Anyway, forgive me for asking, but are you a Muslim?
I used to be, but thank God I am not one now. If anything, I like to think of myself as a "muslim" (small 'm', and if you do not know the difference, then you are much more lost than you think my friend. See
http//www.free-minds.org/node/10
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-religion.htmlDear Wakas
Then how could you give any input into the Quran or understand the Quran if you don't speak, read, write or understand the Arabic language in line with your last comment.
If a person does not know what they are saying, then it goes against AQ, e.g. 443. Simple.
Anyway, forgive me for asking, but are you a Muslim?
Peace
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Dear Wakas
Many thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately, I do not agree with your method of understanding or your analogies. It is an universally accepted practice around the world that anyone who is an expert in any field has studied/practiced in their respective field of expertise. For example, a lawyer cannot be a lawyer without completing a law degree and then entering the bar, a teacher cannot teach in an institution without completing a teaching degree and then teacher training, an astronaut cannot be an astronaut without undergoing the formal and appropriate training so on and so forth.
Whether you like it or not, the system of learning has been set up in this manner for thousands of years spanning every race, religion and creed to learn from teachers. Even with the Open University programmes you have teachers on the other end guiding you. And once this learning process has reached a certain level or minimum standard which is laid out and agreed upon by consensus (examining body), it is only then one can claim to be a specialist or advanced student in the chosen field.
For example, I am a lawyer by qualification for which I had to complete a university degree and then complete lawyer training for x amount of years, even though I no longer practice law anymore, but I cannot pick up a book on medicine, read it and then tell doctors that I am more qualified than them or even on the same level and start to give medical advice setting up a private practice without being approved and appropriately qualified. Another parable would be if one who does not know how to drive a vehicle claims to be a driving instructor and tries to teach someone to drive when they cannot drive themselves!
As far as 'the proof in the pudding' proverb is concerned, you are right, it doesn't matter who the chef is, but the end product. However, the important factor here is that both parties who create the pudding are Chefs and not tree surgeons. Which means unless you know anything about cooking or baking you would not be able to create the pudding. Correct?
Anyway, each person to their own and good luck to you in whatever you do in your life.
Peace
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For example, I am a lawyer by qualification for which I had to complete a university degree and then complete lawyer training for x amount of years, even though I no longer practice law anymore, but I cannot pick up a book on medicine, read it and then tell doctors that I am more qualified than them or even on the same level and start to give medical advice setting up a private practice without being approved and appropriately qualified. Another parable would be if one who does not know how to drive a vehicle claims to be a driving instructor and tries to teach someone to drive when they cannot drive themselves!
Yet, almost without fail, whenever I raise the question of why we Muslims are not allowed to reflect upon the verses of the Qur'an for ourselves, I am rebutted with the analogy of the medical profession
"Can you simply read a medical text book," I am asked, "and then start to practice medicine on your own?"
"No, of course not," I answer.
"Well, the same is true with the Qur'an."
This analogy is fallacious. Medicine - just like Engineering, or Computer Science, or Architecture - is a profession. It has a compendium of knowledge that must be mastered, and after this compendium has been mastered, the newly-graduated doctor of medicine must undergo a 3-7 year apprenticeship, during which he or she practices the trade under the supervision of more experienced physicians. Once this is completed, then, and only then, can one practice medicine on their own.
Is Islam a profession such as this? If someone wants to become a Muslim, is her or she required to go to college for four years, then four years of "Islamic school," then complete a 3-7 year "Islamic residency" in order to be a "board-certified Muslim"? No. We Muslims, in fact, brag about how easy it is to become a Muslim simply declare "There is nothing worthy of worship except God, and Muhammad is His Messenger."
Yet, after one becomes a Muslim, he or she cannot read the Qur'an and reflect about what the verses mean to him or her. No. This is akin to picking up a pair of scissors and performing coronary bypass surgery after reading a surgical textbook. Does this make any inkling of sense?
from Hesham Hassaballa, What Are The Requirements To Reflect Over the Qur'an?
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I think you should Pray in your Native tounge.
Then I think you should Learn Arabic.Not beacuse Arabic is some Magical Language, but becuase it is the Original Language of the Quran.
Just as If I were to Read the Torah, I would 1st read it in English and then I would try to learn it in HEBREW,Or If I was to read the Hindu Texts, I would 1st Learn them in English, and then Strive to learn them in their Original Hindi language.
I am tierd of Arrogance on both sides. I have meet People say, "F*** Arabic! I dont need to learn it!" or "F*** English, You NEED to learn ARABIC!"
I think both people are Ignorant/Arrogant and limiting theirselves.We should all Strive to Enhance our Vocabulary in both Languages. Why would we ever want to be limited to only One Language?
Let us Pray, recite, and learn them both....It will help us out better in the long run anyways. Then we could converese with Arabic and English people.I SAY LEARN BOTH and refuse to confine/Limit yourself to only ONE understanding. D
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I think you should Pray in your Native tounge.
Then I think you should Learn Arabic.Not beacuse Arabic is some Magical Language, but becuase it is the Original Language of the Quran.
Just as If I were to Read the Torah, I would 1st read it in English and then I would try to learn it in HEBREW,Or If I was to read the Hindu Texts, I would 1st Learn them in English, and then Strive to learn them in their Original Hindi language.
I am tierd of Arrogance on both sides. I have meet People say, "F*** Arabic! I dont need to learn it!" or "F*** English, You NEED to learn ARABIC!"
I think both people are Ignorant/Arrogant and limiting theirselves.We should all Strive to Enhance our Vocabulary in both Languages. Why would we ever want to be limited to only One Language?
Let us Pray, recite, and learn them both....It will help us out better in the long run anyways. Then we could converese with Arabic and English people.I SAY LEARN BOTH and refuse to confine/Limit yourself to only ONE understanding. D
So the one who pray in any other language will go to hell wow
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Dear zulu12,
Putting aside your false analogies, strawman arguments and red herrings, I guess it is lucky for me the sentiment in your post is not shared by The Quran. To see how it puts forth argument, you may find this book interesting
http//www.amazon.com/Logic-Rhetoric-Legal-Reasoning-Quran/dp/0415324769Let me know the verse where The Quran uses an "appeal to authority" fallacy, as you do.
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"Can you simply read a medical text book," I am asked, "and then start to practice medicine on your own?"
if a medical text book claims that "it is made easy to understand" and is for "anNaas" common people, then why not?
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Dear Wakas
I will refrain from explaining in terms that you may find difficult to understand or terms that you perceive to be 'red herrings' and will cut to the chase. It is a universally accepted fact from the beginning of the human race, that one cannot be a specialist or even explain something in simple terms of which they have absolutely no idea or knowledge. How can you then give any insight of Quranic Arabic if you do not speak, write or understand the language in any way or form and have neither studied the subject? Period.
122 behold, We have bestowed it from on high as a discourse in the arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.
1337 Thus, then, have We bestowed from on high this as an ordinance in the arabic tongue. And, indeed, if thou shouldst defer to men's likes and dislikes after all the knowledge that has come unto thee, thou wouldst have none to protect thee from God, and none to shield thee .
16103 And, indeed, full well do We know that they say, "It is but a human being that imparts this to him! - the tongue of him to whom they so maliciously point is wholly outlandish, whereas this is arabic speech, clear and clearly showing the truth .
20113 AND THUS have We bestowed from on high this as a discourse in the arabic tongue, and have given therein many facets to all manner of warnings, so that men might remain conscious of Us, or that it give rise to a new awareness in them
26195 in the clear arabic tongue.
3928 as a discourse in the arabic tongue, free of all devious?ness, so that they might become conscious of God.
413 a divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the arabic tongue for people of knowl?edge,
4144 Now if We had willed this to be a discourse in a non-arabic tongue, they would surely have said, ?Why is it that its messages have not been spelled out clearly? Why - a non-arabic tongue, and an Arab?? Say ?Unto all who have attained to faith, this is a guidance and a source of health; but as for those who will not believe - in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them they are being called from too far away.
427 and so We have revealed unto thee a discourse in the arabic tongue in order that thou mayest warn the foremost of all cities and all who dwell around it to wit, warn of the Day of the Gathering, which is beyond all doubt some shall find themselves in paradise, and some in the blazing flame.
433 behold, We have caused it to be a discourse in the arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.
4612 And yet, before this there was the revelation of Moses, a guide and a grace; and this is a divine writ confirming the truth in the arabic tongue, to warn those who are bent on evildoing, and a glad tiding to the doers of good
If you believe otherwise, I implore you to gain a Harvard University Degree in say a PhD in Biological Sciences in Dental Medicine, without studying the subject and just a phone call to the Dean stating that you have read a book on Japanese Sushi and feel you are now fully experienced, specialised and competent in the field of Dentistry. Therefore, not only do you require acknowledgement of the PhD but you are in a position to publicly debate and teach the professors everything about Dentistry because they are wrong and you are right based on your Sushi. Because this is exactly what you are saying about the Quran and Quranic Arabic.
Anyway, once you complete this task, I will accept everything you say without question. My incline is that the Dean will do exactly what I will do. Laugh at your claims over the phone and after putting the phone down, walk away nodding his head in disbelief chuckling to himself and asking the question 'is this dude on crack or something' and then cite this incident at dinner parties to entertain all his guests each time and everytime. In other words, the butt of all jokes!
Good luck.
Peace
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Dear Wakas
I'm not arguing with you my friend, I'm telling you.
Read and digest the following ayat
20113 AND THUS have We bestowed from on high this as a discourse in the Arabic tongue, and have given therein many facets to all manner of warnings, so that men might remain conscious of Us, or that it give rise to a new awareness in them -
20114 then, do not approach the Qur'an in haste, ere it has been revealed unto thee in full, but issues from the Most Gracious, the Dis?penser of Grace -
413 a divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the Arabic tongue for people of knowl?edge, -
414 to be a herald of glad tidings as well as a warning. And yet, most of them turn away, so that they cannot hear ;-
My question to you Wakas is very clear. Please confirm and explain to me how can one teach, recite and explain something if they do not understand the language of the instruction in the first instance?
This is a basic rule applicable to everything on earth.
I really cannot make it any simpler than this. You obviously reply to posts on this Forum utilising the English language, recognizing the keyboard on your pc and then pressing the appropriate keys, finally putting sentences together in order to articulate your replies. How did you get to this stage and did you go through a learning process?
Peace
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Dear zulu12,
Thanks for showing you are unable to cite an 'appeal to authority' verse. An 'appeal to knowledge/knowing' verse is not the same thing, i.e. knowledge and authority are not equivalent words. If you disagree, please see a dictionary.
Please confirm and explain to me how can one teach, recite and explain something if they do not understand the language of the instruction in the first instance?
If they do not understand anything at all, then they cant. However, as I have clearly and blatantly pointed out to you if one has access to resources/tools which help understand it to a high level and they have the attributes the instruction says will help understand it, then they can teach, recite and explain it to a certain degree. This is simple logic to most people.
You seem to imply your view is proven the world over. No. Your view, at most, is only proven in the extreme case, i.e. a person knows nothing at all and does not have access to anything that will help understand. If you wish to claim anything else, prove your point and simply cite any study in the entire world which proves those qualified/learned in subject X have the best understanding of subject X. You will not find any such study, because it would be nonsense, and that is why AQ does not engage in 'appeal to authority' fallacious argument, as you seemingly promote.Let me summarise, your view is correct only in the extreme/absolute case, for anything less, it is false.
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Yet, almost without fail, whenever I raise the question of why we Muslims are not allowed to reflect upon the verses of the Qur'an for ourselves, I am rebutted with the analogy of the medical profession
"Can you simply read a medical text book," I am asked, "and then start to practice medicine on your own?"
"No, of course not," I answer.
"Well, the same is true with the Qur'an."
This analogy is fallacious. Medicine - just like Engineering, or Computer Science, or Architecture - is a profession. It has a compendium of knowledge that must be mastered, and after this compendium has been mastered, the newly-graduated doctor of medicine must undergo a 3-7 year apprenticeship, during which he or she practices the trade under the supervision of more experienced physicians. Once this is completed, then, and only then, can one practice medicine on their own.
Is Islam a profession such as this? If someone wants to become a Muslim, is her or she required to go to college for four years, then four years of "Islamic school," then complete a 3-7 year "Islamic residency" in order to be a "board-certified Muslim"? No. We Muslims, in fact, brag about how easy it is to become a Muslim simply declare "There is nothing worthy of worship except God, and Muhammad is His Messenger."
Yet, after one becomes a Muslim, he or she cannot read the Qur'an and reflect about what the verses mean to him or her. No. This is akin to picking up a pair of scissors and performing coronary bypass surgery after reading a surgical textbook. Does this make any inkling of sense?
from Hesham Hassaballa, What Are The Requirements To Reflect Over the Qur'an?
I agree. It is almost like saying you can't know God unless you are a professional. Always Muslims are told on the one hand the Koran is plain and clear and on the other it requires a professional to explain it. Contradiction much?
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I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. If you speak English only, then pray in English. If you speak Arabic only then pray in Arabic. God understands all languages. If you are praying, why say what someone else tells you to say? Especially if you don't understand it. Why not say what YOU want to say in your own language and in your own way? Wouldn't that make you feel closer to God?
