Some Genuine Questions from Christians
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Peace,
Respectfully.Try this compare both Books, Bible and The Quran. You'll see that Muslims and Christians agree on many things and there are several stories that are almost identical. Abraham and his wife got the child was a miracle, she was barren and he was old.
Then the story about prophet Jonah and the whale, also, you should really read Genesis chapter 17, verse 3, then Moses receiving the Ten Commanedments and crossing the dry seabed, Jesus speaking from the cradler, the miracles he performed with the leave of God and Bible even mentions the arrival of prophet/messenge rof God - Muhammad.I forgot the verses but i'm sure you can locate them on the net, God willing.
Things that contradict The Quran, are clearly not from The Bible but i believe it was added.
God knows best.
Peace. -
I've never really taken any interest in inter-faith debating and my knowledge of Christianity is sparse to say the least. I was wondering if there was anyone around who's more clued up than I am to answer this, it's from Yahoo Answers. I'm not sure how many of you use that site but never the less
http//answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AvAobZcnCX7Mt0IaQAkAnq3nDH1G;_ylv=3?qid=20100416001907AAsAqHX
Salam, Peace,
STEP1
INJEEL IS NOT THE GOSPELFrom AL Quran point of view, Issa received the Injeel
546
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.From Bible point of view
Jesus was preaching the Gospel
e.g.
Matthew 423 KJV ? Read this chapter
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.Mark 114 KJV ? Read this chapter
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,Now how come this is in the "GOSPEL"
Matthew 2735 KJV ?
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.Matthew 2738 KJV ?
Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.Matthew 285 KJV ?
And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.Mark 1524 KJV ?
And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.You cannot be the "author" or "writer" of a book where you describe event of your death and/or after your death!
Conclusion
The Gospel as we know today IS NOT THE INJEEL mentioned in Al Quran!
STEP2
Jesus in arabic is YASU' NOT ISSA
You cannot say Yassu' and Issa are one and same person, nobody knows it, arabs know "Jesus" as Yasu' not Issa!!!!!!! Arabic christians name him Yassu'
STEP3
The "old testament" case
Quran 2148
In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the Criterion (for judgment) and a Light and a Message for those who would do rightSimilar to what we said for the Injeel and Gospel, we find in OT
Deuteronomy 345 KJV ?
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.Deuteronomy 347 KJV ?
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.Numbers 2028 KJV ?
And Moses stripped Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there in the top of the mount and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mount.STEP 4
Issa is the son of Mary, sister of Aaron.
Aaron brother of Moses
When Moses came back to his people angry and grieved, he said "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the Tablets seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him To him. Aaron said "son of my mother! The people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me amongst the people of sin."Mary mother of Issa, sister of Aaron
AQ 1927
At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). they said "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
AQ 1928
"O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"ARE YOU STILL CONVINCED JESUS (CHRISTIAN) IS ISSA OF THE QURAN???????
Peace
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Peace,
Respectfully.I've asked this one and several Christians were beaten.
I asked them why can't they make The Bible the law of the country instead of the constituition?
Many said no way but there's my neighbor here who said something i haven't heard this far. He said because The Bible is not complete.I guess all they have to do is read The Quran, God willing.
Peace. -
I've never really taken any interest in inter-faith debating and my knowledge of Christianity is sparse to say the least. I was wondering if there was anyone around who's more clued up than I am to answer this, it's from Yahoo Answers. I'm not sure how many of you use that site but never the less
http//answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AvAobZcnCX7Mt0IaQAkAnq3nDH1G;_ylv=3?qid=20100416001907AAsAqHX
I'm not interested in defending the 'Islamic position' as such, but I will explain why his story is wrong.
The 4 gospels were written between 30 and 90 years after Jesus's crucifixion. The early followers of Jesus - in the years before and after his crucifixion, did not call themselves "Christians" because "Christian" is a Greek word and they were mostly Jewish.
A major split described in the 'letters' included in the bible after the gospels is between James, Jesus's brother, and Paul, arch-evangelist. James's version of Christianity was one which conformed far more to the Jewish tradition - they were Jews who believed in Jesus's message. Paul's vision for Christianity was as a new religion.
There were a lot of wars in Judea between 66AD and 136AD. The antagonism between Judaism and Christianity leading to "aposynagogos" (being thrown out of the synagogue), along with the annihilation of mainstream Jewish culture first with the destruction of the temple, then the Roman genocide against Jews, meant that those Christians who tried to stay linked to Judaism floundered, whilst Paul's branch of Christianity was a success.
Thus the branch of Christianity that stayed closer to Jesus's actual way of life and message did indeed disappear as Islamic tradition describes, regardless of what may have taken place at his crucifixion.
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Peace,
Respectfully.I've asked this one and several Christians were beaten.
I asked them why can't they make The Bible the law of the country instead of the constituition?
Many said no way but there's my neighbor here who said something i haven't heard this far. He said because The Bible is not complete.I guess all they have to do is read The Quran, God willing.
Peace.Why would we make the Bible the law of the country? You would have to explain what you mean when he said the bible is not complete.
There is no doubt that the biggest difference is our belief in who Jesus is BUT the other massive difference between Christianity and Islam is the belief Christians have that we all die in the law and Muslims seem to believe they will be justified by the law. Islam's sharia law is the greatest fear I have of Islam. That an individual must have every aspect of their lives governed by laws as opposed to simply loving God, learning about Him and being in a good relationship with Him.
I think at the heart of what I am saying is that all the laws in the world don't make you love God only your heart can love God. So what would be the advantage of running a country with Sharia Law? Why do you think making the Bible or the Koran the law of a country would do any good? Do you think someone that hates God but follows the law because they fear the law will go to Heaven?
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Why would we make the Bible the law of the country? You would have to explain what you mean when he said the bible is not complete.
There is no doubt that the biggest difference is our belief in who Jesus is BUT the other massive difference between Christianity and Islam is the belief Christians have that we all die in the law and Muslims seem to believe they will be justified by the law.
I don't support theocracy, making the Quran or the Bible a law book, because I don't believe either of these books are 'up to scratch' as such. But the principle of putting our legal systems in line with "natural law" or the principles of reason and human nature, is a good one.
Why exactly do you think Christians believe they would all "die by the law"? Do you think all Christians are murderers and adulterers under OT law? I can't believe that's actually true. I've much more faith in the moral understanding of your average Christian than that. Why else would Jesus tell the woman he let off for adultery "Go and do not sin again" if he didn't believe human beings were capable of abstaining from adultery?
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On the subject of law and morality, it is especially worth noting that the trend over the past few thousand years has been for law to get closer, not further away, from morality. What in past years was seen as "immoral" has tended to become "illegal".
People have got the wrong message from movements towards "sexual liberation" and so forth, thinking that we have fewer and fewer laws based on morality about things like sex. The truth is the opposite. In the past there was no law preventing powerful people from raping etc. There was no law against infanticide. There was no law against teachers taking sexual advantage of their pupils. There was no law against using slaves for sex. There was no law against husbands raping their wives. Now we have all these laws, and more, the field of family law is getting bigger and bigger, with more complex rules about what is and isn't allowed in personal lives, what is and isn't expected of parents.
In the rest of our legal systems, laws have also got more and more complex and closer to what people see as the realms of "morality" - companies are no longer allowed to cheat their customers, use false advertising, or things like that. In future this is likely to go further and further - what is today seen as "unfair" or "immoral" will tomorrow be "unlawful" and "illegal".
The view that it is too much to expect people to behave morally is based on wrong ideas of what morality is or otherwise because you're raised in a tradition where punishments are disproportionate and unfair. Of course, if you have a theology where God is cruel and excessive, you will think that morality is something harmful to human beings. But if you really understand that moral laws are here to make our lives happier, easier, more harmonious, and that penalties should not be our of proportion to the offence, then you would perceive making law and morality the same thing to be a good thing.
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Why exactly do you think Christians believe they would all "die by the law"? Do you think all Christians are murderers and adulterers under OT law? I can't believe that's actually true. I've much more faith in the moral understanding of your average Christian than that.
Of course I think we are all guilty by the law. Jesus's most famous teaching the Beatitudes discusses this explicitly. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." and more "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
Bible verses on the Law and how we will all be guilty if we wish to be judged by it.
Matthew 5 http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=NIV
Galatians 5 http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=NIVWhy else would Jesus tell the woman he let off for adultery "Go and do not sin again" if he didn't believe human beings were capable of abstaining from adultery?
We can abstain from the act but not the sin. Look at what Islam tries to do to avoid the potential of the sin of adultery and yet we all know that no matter how much we love our partner it is basically impossible to go through life without looking at, for a moment, another person lustfully and the truth is that there are more moments than we care to remember.People have got the wrong message from movements towards "sexual liberation" and so forth, thinking that we have fewer and fewer laws based on morality about things like sex. The truth is the opposite. In the past there was no law preventing powerful people from raping etc. There was no law against infanticide. There was no law against teachers taking sexual advantage of their pupils. There was no law against using slaves for sex. There was no law against husbands raping their wives. Now we have all these laws, and more, the field of family law is getting bigger and bigger, with more complex rules about what is and isn't allowed in personal lives, what is and isn't expected of parents.
Yes I know. We are doing exactly what Jesus warned/feared we would do. Relying on laws and not our hearts to settle matters. Hold onto this observation of yours. The West fears Sharia law but we are bound by our own secular law which seeks to bind us as well.
In the rest of our legal systems, laws have also got more and more complex and closer to what people see as the realms of "morality" - companies are no longer allowed to cheat their customers, use false advertising, or things like that. In future this is likely to go further and further - what is today seen as "unfair" or "immoral" will tomorrow be "unlawful" and "illegal".
Yes again you are seeing exactly what is going on. Without trust in the individual there can be only law.The view that it is too much to expect people to behave morally is based on wrong ideas of what morality is or otherwise because you're raised in a tradition where punishments are disproportionate and unfair.
Agreed.Of course, if you have a theology where God is cruel and excessive, you will think that morality is something harmful to human beings.
And start legislating endless.But if you really understand that moral laws are here to make our lives happier, easier, more harmonious, and that penalties should not be our of proportion to the offence, then you would perceive making law and morality the same thing to be a good thing.
And when you realise that law and morality are not the same thing you will have one and lost the other?You are arguing generally good points that I agree with. Don't mistake my view as anti-law, simply that we fail the law constantly and we should know ourselves and forgive and seek forgiveness when we do fail and for some offences we may enact the law to separate a person from society for society's good. My fear is those that rely on the law will continue to make law not to protect the individual but to protect morality itself. This is enslavement.
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Salam, Peace,
STEP1
INJEEL IS NOT THE GOSPELFrom AL Quran point of view, Issa received the Injeel
546
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.From Bible point of view
Jesus was preaching the Gospel
e.g.
Matthew 423 KJV ? Read this chapter
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.Mark 114 KJV ? Read this chapter
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,Now how come this is in the "GOSPEL"
Matthew 2735 KJV ?
And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.Matthew 2738 KJV ?
Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.Matthew 285 KJV ?
And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.Mark 1524 KJV ?
And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.You cannot be the "author" or "writer" of a book where you describe event of your death and/or after your death!
Conclusion
The Gospel as we know today IS NOT THE INJEEL mentioned in Al Quran!
STEP2
Jesus in arabic is YASU' NOT ISSA
You cannot say Yassu' and Issa are one and same person, nobody knows it, arabs know "Jesus" as Yasu' not Issa!!!!!!! Arabic christians name him Yassu'
STEP3
The "old testament" case
Quran 2148
In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the Criterion (for judgment) and a Light and a Message for those who would do rightSimilar to what we said for the Injeel and Gospel, we find in OT
Deuteronomy 345 KJV ?
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.Deuteronomy 347 KJV ?
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.Numbers 2028 KJV ?
And Moses stripped Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son; and Aaron died there in the top of the mount and Moses and Eleazar came down from the mount.STEP 4
Issa is the son of Mary, sister of Aaron.
Aaron brother of Moses
When Moses came back to his people angry and grieved, he said "Evil it is that ye have done in my place in my absence did ye make haste to bring on the judgment of your Lord?" He put down the Tablets seized his brother by (the hair of) his head, and dragged him To him. Aaron said "son of my mother! The people did indeed reckon me as naught, and went near to slaying me! Make not the enemies rejoice over my misfortune, nor count thou me amongst the people of sin."Mary mother of Issa, sister of Aaron
AQ 1927
At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). they said "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
AQ 1928
"O sister of Aaron! thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"ARE YOU STILL CONVINCED JESUS (CHRISTIAN) IS ISSA OF THE QURAN???????
Peace
interesting!
Also, there are many references in the Qur'an that speak about a/the book (kitab) given to Moses (253,87; 691,154; 1117,110; 172; 1951; 2349), or even about the "Books of Moses" (suhuf) (5336; 8719). None of those verses, however, identifies the book by name. Does Qur'an clarify the relationship between "the book(s) of Moses" and the Torah?
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Of course I think we are all guilty by the law. Jesus's most famous teaching the Beatitudes discusses this explicitly. "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." and more "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."
Bible verses on the Law and how we will all be guilty if we wish to be judged by it.
Matthew 5 http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5&version=NIV
Galatians 5 http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+5&version=NIV
We can abstain from the act but not the sin. Look at what Islam tries to do to avoid the potential of the sin of adultery and yet we all know that no matter how much we love our partner it is basically impossible to go through life without looking at, for a moment, another person lustfully and the truth is that there are more moments than we care to remember.Yes, Jesus's ethics don't really figure as practical morality or fairness. There're closer to a kind of personal health advice - it's unhealthy to fantasise about sex with unavailable people, its unhealthy to keep grudges or to get angry with your family.
These aren't the same things as moral laws though. In terms of 'anger' and 'lust' - there is a right time and a wrong time for these things. They say that if you ever feel psychopathic impulses overwhelming you, you should try doing some gardening, you'll be amazed how many weeds you manage to pull up. Same with lust - we sometimes need our lust otherwise there won't be a next generation.
So I think it is wrong to interpret the sermon on the mount as saying that it is impossible to behave morally. When it comes to "feelings" - yes it is impossible to always feel the right thing. But when it comes to actions, when it comes to murdering, robbing, fornicating - the opposite is the case. These are wholly and entirely within our power to avoid.
As we've discussed, my interpretation is that after we die, we punish ourselves for our own sins. My interpretation of forgiveness is that we can forgive ourselves for the wrongs we have put right and the wrongs which by God's grace have not had bad consequences. Our soul will not forgive us for the sins we have been too lazy to put right or for which we are too arrogant to make amends. Murder is a very, very difficult crime to to make amends for. Adultery is a very, very difficult transgression to get forgiveness for. Robbery is also a crime with very difficult, damaging and unpredictable consequences.
If we can't create a society which minimises and protects its inhabitants from these kinds of moral and actual crimes then I think we are failing in our human duty to apply our intelligence to improve our worldly lives and to recognise the working of God's guidance in our relationships with our society.
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Yes, Jesus's ethics don't really figure as practical morality or fairness. There're closer to a kind of personal health advice - it's unhealthy to fantasise about sex with unavailable people, its unhealthy to keep grudges or to get angry with your family.
It is hard to accept to see how your interpretation fits that reading.These aren't the same things as moral laws though. In terms of 'anger' and 'lust' - there is a right time and a wrong time for these things. They say that if you ever feel psychopathic impulses overwhelming you, you should try doing some gardening, you'll be amazed how many weeds you manage to pull up. Same with lust - we sometimes need our lust otherwise there won't be a next generation.
You are basically arguing that if it wasn't for gluttony we wouldn't eat at all.So I think it is wrong to interpret the sermon on the mount as saying that it is impossible to behave morally. When it comes to "feelings" - yes it is impossible to always feel the right thing. But when it comes to actions, when it comes to murdering, robbing, fornicating - the opposite is the case. These are wholly and entirely within our power to avoid.
No I think we can interpret the sermon on the mount as it is intended A full explanation of how we will be judged and found wanting according to the law.As we've discussed, my interpretation is that after we die, we punish ourselves for our own sins. My interpretation of forgiveness is that we can forgive ourselves for the wrongs we have put right and the wrongs which by God's grace have not had bad consequences. Our soul will not forgive us for the sins we have been too lazy to put right or for which we are too arrogant to make amends. Murder is a very, very difficult crime to to make amends for. Adultery is a very, very difficult transgression to get forgiveness for. Robbery is also a crime with very difficult, damaging and unpredictable consequences.
One can only hope that one gets to punish themselves for their own sins. I don't think we will be that lucky.If we can't create a society which minimises and protects its inhabitants from these kinds of moral and actual crimes then I think we are failing in our human duty to apply our intelligence to improve our worldly lives and to recognise the working of God's guidance in our relationships with our society.
Worse awaits when we legislate morality. It is the death of the individual, of free will and ultimately of love and our ability to love God of our own accord. -
Does the Koran say Torah and Gospel corrupted?
Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say "Islam" says so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. Indeed some Sunni/Shia scholars claim that any follower of islam who does not believe that the Jews and Christians are infidels is an infidel himself! However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6
If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)
2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
2.91 When it is said to them, ?Believe in what God Hath sent down, ?they say, ?We believe in what was sent down to us? yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say ?Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe??
Here the Koran clearly states the Koran confirms what is with them, meaning the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Clearly this is not stating scriptures of the past but what they have possession of at the time the Koran was revealed. These scriptures are identical in every way to the scriptures these religions still have today known as the Old Testament and New Testament or the Bible as some call it. As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption of the Bible is mentioned in the Koran as claimed by the Sunni/Shia sectarianist. How can God say the previous scriptures are corrupted then order them to follow them? It even attacks those who refuse to follow it and says its a path to salvation and mentions them in an equal footing as the Koran.
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48
It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran
And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)
Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way they are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about other than the current Bible? They then point to this verse as evidence of the corruption and tampering of the previous scriptures(ie the Bible).
2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.
2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book and the follow up verses brings light to a religious scripture followed by the Judaic faith thats not the Old Testament.
2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"
This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them. The Talmud are the collections of the traditions of the so called Pharisees talked about in the Gospel who were fierce opponents of Jesus the Messiah.
The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come. Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAlso in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean" the wages owed him for work.
The Koran condemned this
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.
4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also
The Schindler's List Quote
The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.
In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.
In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.
The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land
"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.
"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...
The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books" will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.
The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113
?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)
The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek".See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288The Koran then says
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward.
Truth About the Talmud Judaism's Holiest Book
As for the Gospel
Jesus is reported to have said ?he that hath seen me hath seen the Father? and ?I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (John 149-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add ?At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.? (John 1420) Again, while Jesus does proclaim ?I and my Father are one? (John 1030), he also prays for his followers, ?that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.? (John 1721) Whatever the nature of the ?oneness? Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians ? in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.
Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as ?equal with God? ? John 518 and Philippians 26 ? the Greek word translated ?equal? is isos, which means ?on the same level? or ?of the same rank,? never ?identical.? The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what ?everybody knows? about Jesus? claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.
An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the ?Logos? with God (John 11) and the ?Logos made flesh? with Jesus (John 114). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like ?the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was? ? an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term ?Logos? is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing?s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is ?with? God and is what God is, is not God but God?s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God?s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God?s spirit (Genesis 27) and in God?s image and likeness (Genesis 126-27).
Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God?s nature
?But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.? (John 112-13)
?For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.? (Romans 814-17)
?Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.? (1 John 32)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus? message, being the ?Son of God? is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;In a Blog's Stead - February 2004
Clearly this has no basis in the Gospel, the Koran reiterates this
People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)
"And they say, The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant" (Maryam 1988-93)
There is nothing, absolutely nothing about corruption or tampering of previous scriptures. The Koran states that the Talmud is NOT the word of God and says the Christian priests are NOT following the Gospel but indeed they hide and conceal and take things out of context and following vain desires
"They (i.e. Jews and Christians) changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them -except a few among them- bent on new deceits?" (513)
There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from God,' but it is not from God It is they who tell a lie against God and (well) they know it! (3,7
The Koran came to Confirm and not abrogate the previous scriptures as the Sunni/Shia sects claim. And like Jesus it condemned the Talmudic traditions. The Islamic sects created the exact type of oral traditions that they believe "explains" the Koran and indeed abrogates it. These oral traditions were compiled by Muslim jurist two centuries after Muhammad and these traditions dominate the teachings of these sects.
The Koran is here to support and confirm the previous scriptures. A reminder to many not to abandon the scriptures and follow men. The scriptures must be read as a WHOLE and not in isolation.
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. ( 2,85)
"Say We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " 2136
"The messenger believeth in that which hath been revealed unto him from his Lord and (so do) believers. Each one believeth in Allah and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying. " 2285
{4152}
"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and do not make a distinction between any of them-- Allah will grant them their rewards; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."No distiction between the scriptures and no distinction between the prophets. Koran is peace!
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Peace, Bigmo, all,
Let's do it short
OT is about 40 books, NT is about 24 books. My understanding is the following, not ALL OT is the word of God, regarding NT is another discussion.
I do recognize the words of God when I read for example Isaiah book. But I do not recognize words of God when I read Kings book for example, words are clearly from humans.
e.g. example, Solomon case
in the Bible
According to 1 Kings 114 Solomon's "wives turned his heart after other gods", their own national deities, to whom Solomon built temples, thus incurring divine anger and retribution in the form of the division of the kingdom after Solomon's death. (1 Kings 119-13)
1 Kings 11 describes Solomon's descent into idolatry, particularly his turning after Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom, the abomination of the Ammonites. In Deuteronomy 1716-17, a king is commanded not to multiply horses, wives or gold. Solomon sins in all three of these areas. Solomon collects 666 talents of gold each year, (1 Kings 1014) a huge amount of money for a small nation like Israel. Solomon gathers a large number of horses and chariots and even brings in horses from Egypt. Just as Deuteronomy 17 warns, collecting horses and chariots takes Israel back to Egypt. Finally, Solomon marries foreign women, and these women turn Solomon to other gods.
According to 1 Kings 119-13, it was because of these sins that "the Lord punishes Solomon by tearing the kingdom in two"
And the Lord was angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods. But he did not keep what the LORD commanded. Therefore the Lord said to Solomon, "Since this has been your practice and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes that I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you and will give it to your servant. Yet for the sake of David your father I will not do it in your days, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son, for the sake of David my servant and for the sake of Jerusalem that I have chosen.
(source wiki)
In the Quran
And they followed what the Shayatin(devils) chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shayatin(devils) disbelieved, they teach people sorcery and such things that came down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet they(the two Angels) taught no person until they had said to them, "Surely, we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever." So they learn from them(the two Angels) that by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah's permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this. (Holy Quran, chapter 2.102)
Peace
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No I think we can interpret the sermon on the mount as it is intended A full explanation of how we will be judged and found wanting according to the law.
The question is, why? Why would God judge people for what turns them on? Why would God judge us on the basis of our thoughts, which we do not control, instead of our actions, which we do control? It's totally random.
I consider myself a muslim but I don't like any branch of theology or philosophy which is random or unreasonable. Many teachings have a side of them which makes good sense but the mainstream interpretations insists you ignore the common sense aspect and have faith in it as arbitrary and unknowable. Like circumcision - many doctors say there are health benefits to it, but religious teachers, be they Jewish or Muslim - demand you ignore this and only do it for the sake of faith and tradition. This really annoys me. I saw a comedy sketch about it
Abraham God, I'm so happy to be your Prophet, you're so good to me, you've made my life so happy and special, what can I give you in return? Ask anything, I'll give you anything at all, just ask.
God I want the foreskin of your penis.
Abraham Huh?
God I want the foreskin of your penis.
Abraham What?
God I want the foreskin of your penis.
Abraham Excuse me?
God I want the foreskin of your penis.
Abraham I heard what you said, but why?
God <pause> ...I'm starting a collection.
Seeing things in this way is really not good enough. God doesn't keep some freakish museum full of Jewish and Muslim foreskins. The justification for such traditions must be that it benefits human beings. Likewise the teachings of Jesus, that it is a sin to think bad thoughts, must also be for human benefit, because dwelling on bad thoughts makes it more likely you do bad things.