Peacemaking and Peacemakers in the Great Reading
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If it is so, then what about the claim of it being easiest book to understand
Uh, I don't think that is a valid claim. No one has said it is the easiest book to understand, only that everyone will draw their own understanding of it. Whether that understanding is valid or not is another question. There are layers of meaning to the Quran. Some people study it their entire lives and still keep learning. Others only achieve the most superficial understanding.
What about those who do not know a single word of Arabic? Why get out of the shackles of Mullah and at the same time become prisoners of ayman or any one else for that purpose?
Symbol ayman (Modernist) = Symbol Mullah (traditionalist)Those who do not know a single word of Arabic will not understand a single word of the Quran, unless they rely on translations, which of course were written by people who DO understand Arabic.
I am not a prisoner of Ayman. The Arabic language isn't a random hodgepodge of gibberish. It is a precise and pristine mathematical language, and it operates under those laws.
You cannot understand the world until you study physics and mathematics to understand the laws of nature.
You cannot understand the Quran until you study the grammar and understand the laws of Arabic.This argument is moot. Telling someone Arabic grammar is not important to the understanding of the Quran is pretty ludicrous in my opinion.
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Form-I Perfect
Plu Dual Sing
Imperfect Indicative
Imperfect Subjunctive
Imperfect Jussive
Long time back I had posted a thread giving link which provides on line verb conjugation, quite reliable.
http//acon.baykal.be/index.php?r3=%D9%85&r2=%D9%84&r1=%D8%B3&type=I&pvowel=a&ivowel=a
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Peace THS
I am not a prisoner of Ayman. The Arabic language isn't a random hodgepodge of gibberish. It is a precise and pristine mathematical language, and it operates under those laws.
You cannot understand the world until you study physics and mathematics to understand the laws of nature.
You cannot understand the Quran until you study the grammar and understand the laws of Arabic.
This argument is moot. Telling someone Arabic grammar is not important to the understanding of the Quran is pretty ludicrous in my opinion.I agree with everyting except the "mathematical" thing. It is impossible for the Arabic letters to have been used as numbers since the Arabic language wasn't used in teaching and therefore didn't have a systematic letter order. Conventional letter orders which simply have to be learnt by rote, are typical of school-taught literacy. Because the order is transmitted systematically and universally in formal teaching, it can then be used as a numbering system by giving the letters numerical values as in Greek and Hebrew. On the other hand, Arabic was an oral vernacular language that was not used in literacy. In fact, we have several pre-Islamic examples of Arabian (Musnad) alphabet abecedaries in each of which the letters have been arranged in a different order, none of them a conventional Abjad. In each, the letters have been grouped according to the similarities which the particular writer perceived in their shapes.
Arabic has 28 letters to Hebrew?s 22. What we notice is that the Arabic letters that don?t have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet have been relegated to the end of the numerals. This observation proves an artificial phonetic alignment with the Hebrew alphabet in Islamic times after the fact of Arabic becoming the religious lingua franca.
At any rate, back to our subject. As you know, my understanding is very simply that "muslim" means peacemaker and "islam" means "peacemaking". This is the meaning according to the Arabic vocabulary and morphology for the forms "muf3il" and "if3al". This is also the logical meaning that fits in all occurrences of those words in the great reading and is in line with the entire message of the great reading and our purpose since the god placed us as leaders on earth as evidenced by the objection of the controllers (?malaika?). Moreover, this concept of peacemakers/peacemaking was well known to the people of the book prior to the great reading.
As Mazhar kindly pointed, you can use this excellent tool to get the forms of any Arabic root
http//acon.baykal.be/
I would suggest that you try different words to see the relation between the Masdar form IV "IF3AL" (ISLAM) and the name of the Masdar which is of the form "Fa3AL" (SaLAM). Try words like - ? which all mean the making of success, plants, good, ... and by the same token ISLAM would be making of peace ie, peacemaking.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Uh, I don't think that is a valid claim. No one has said it is the easiest book to understand, only that everyone will draw their own understanding of it. Whether that understanding is valid or not is another question. There are layers of meaning to the Quran. Some people study it their entire lives and still keep learning. Others only achieve the most superficial understanding.
Well this was a claim of many Quranists right here on this board, but as each Quranist has his own view on Quran, we cannot club all the Quranists under one roof.
Oh! if that is so How the Arabs of that time were able to understand that layers?Once there was a seminar held on a famous poets book of poetry, the speakers were analyzing the poetry with different angles, and each was claiming that this is what is actually said in his poetry, but the poet was telling his friend I never even thought of what they are assuming.
You can spend your whole life studying the poetry of Iqbal or any other great Philosopher or writer, each time you will study his wring or poetry a new angle will be disclosed.
Those who do not know a single word of Arabic will not understand a single word of the Quran, unless they rely on translations, which of course were written by people who DO understand Arabic
That is what I am trying to tell you! Ayman has the time skills, and Knowledge may be you too can spend hours and hours searching those senseless tables. People here are worried about what they will eat next time, how there kids can go to school, how can they save their house from rain, But they still believe in ONE ALLAH.
I don't know about Philosophers but I have seen people starving but saying this is from Allah a exam.
To rely on translations of others is same to rely on Grammar of Ayman, do you find any difference?You cannot understand the world until you study physics and mathematics to understand the laws of nature.
You cannot understand the Quran until you study the grammar and understand the laws of Arabic.Physics and Mathematics are Human try to understand Nature and Laws of nature, other wise the laws are there, neither Budha nor Muhammad peace is upon him neither Musa (AS) studied Physics or Mathematics.
The use of Grammar to understand Quran is a later invention.
Muhammad peace is upon him was not a Grammarian.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/054.%20Al%20Qamar/54.17.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/054.%20Al%20Qamar/54.15a.gif
Now if we need Grammarians and Tables to understand Quran, that Allah has made easy for Us, then it is something else and not Quran.
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Once there was a seminar held on a famous poets book of poetry, the speakers were analyzing the poetry with different angles, and each was claiming that this is what is actually said in his poetry, but the poet was telling his friend I never even thought of what they are assuming.
You can spend your whole life studying the poetry of Iqbal or any other great Philosopher or writer, each time you will study his wring or poetry a new angle will be disclosed.
A poet has no right to say what he intended to say once it is with public. People are at liberty to assume and ascribe anything they like about a poem. Poetry is not something meant for believing.
The point has been emphasized
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/069.%20Al%20Haqata/69.40a.gif
that undoubtedly that/Grand Qur'aan is certainly the Oral and written word/narration by the Exalted Messenger;http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/069.%20Al%20Haqata/69.41.gif
and the Grand Qur'aan is not the Oral and written word/narration of a poet.
Little is that which you people accept/believe/acknowledge.Since it is not the word of a poet, therefore, nothing can be attributed to it, except that which its word convey in simple and straight forward manner.
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Mazhar Sahib
The point has been emphasized
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/069.%20Al%20Haqata/69.40a.gifthat undoubtedly that/Grand Qur'aan is certainly the Oral and written word/narration by the Exalted Messenger;
No doubt it is! only if they believed.
Rajah
Oh! if that is so, How the Arabs of that time were able to understand that layers?
through the Exalted Messenger and not from Grammar!
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Mazhar sahib
Grammer is never the issue with the natives of any language. Grammer is needed only for non natives.
Please allow me to strongly disagree with your above statement. If you read the post of ths it is quite obvious how badly they are in need of Grammar despite being natives to understand Quran.
Technically speaking the above statement has a flaw too.
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Mazhar sahib
Please allow me to strongly disagree with your above statement. If you read the post of ths it is quite obvious how badly they are in need of Grammar despite being natives to understand Quran.Technically speaking the above statement has a flaw too.
However, this is the accepted principle. A non native cannot understand the speech even if has all the vacabalary of that language in his mind memorized from a dictionary. "ths" does not claim to be an Arab, he merely said grown up in Middle East.
A simple example
One may know the individual meanings of all the three words. But he can not understand what has been stated by the speaker unless he knows about the role of case endings which will enable him to identify as to who is the subject of verb and who is the object of verb. And this is grammer.
Understanding Qur'aan and believing in Qur'aan are two different things. Abu Jahl was otherwise very intelligent person fully appreciative of delicacies of the language of Qur'aan. He did not believe, it does not mean that he did not understand Qur'aan.
Moreover, understanding the language and perceiving the thought relating to hidden realities contained therein are also two different things, which will be understood according to the level of information of the reader.
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Mazhar sahib
Understanding Qur'aan and believing in Qur'aan are two different things. Abu Jahl was otherwise very intelligent person fully appreciative of delicacies of the language of Qur'aan. He did not believe, it does not mean that he did not understand Qur'aan.
Agreed!
Mazhar sahib
Moreover, understanding the language and perceiving the thought relating to hidden realities contained therein are also two different things, which will be understood according to the level of information of the reader.
Agreed!
Mazhar sahib
However, this is the accepted principle. A non native cannot understand the speech even if has all the vacabalary of that language in his mind memorized from a dictionary. "ths" does not claim to be an Arab, he merely said grown up in Middle East.
"ths" mentioned a friend who is Arabic poet in his post.
I have a word in front of me the most important one
"Allah" What does Grammar says about this word? How can Grammar help us in understanding this word, for example is this word Common noun or Proper noun? or for example how can Grammar help us to understand the following
Ma Malakat Aymanukum, that will really help. -
Rhanks, Raaajah sahib,
I have a word in front of me the most important one
"Allah" What does Grammar says about this word? How can Grammar help us in understanding this word, for example is this word Common noun or Proper noun? or for example how can Grammar help us to understand the following
Ma Malakat Aymanukum, that will really help.is and grammer has no role. Grammer will come into play when it is used in a sentence.
In its first occurrence it is part of Apodosis clause. is a Relative pronoun and being in apposition it is in accusative state there; it mostly refers to non rational-abstract objects; is a perfect verb, third person, singular; feminine. is a possessive phrase where both noun and possessive pronoun are plural. The first noun is the subject of preceding verb. "Kum" includes men and women of the society-group of people being addressed.
is firm resolve, oath, which also results undertaking of an obligation, liability and responsibility.
A financially poor man does not have such "hands" which possess "slave girl" or "maid servant"----see 425. -
Mazhar sahib
In its first occurrence it is part of Apodosis clause. is a Relative pronoun and being in apposition it is in accusative state there; it mostly refers to non rational-abstract objects; is a perfect verb, third person, singular; feminine. is a possessive phrase where both noun and possessive pronoun are plural. The first noun is the subject of preceding verb. "Kum" includes men and women of the society-group of people being addressed.
is firm resolve, oath, which also results undertaking of an obligation, liability and responsibility.
A financially poor man does not have such "hands" which possess "slave girl" or "maid servant"----see 425.Well plural but masculine
The word aymnuhum here is N ? nominative masculine plural noun
PRON ? 3rd person masculine plural possessive pronounany way
Now what I meant to say was that see for example your translation of 2306except seeking their mates or from the right which they possessed . In consequence indeed they are not the blamed ones.
How did Grammar alone helped you to arrive at this translation? or how can Grammar help any one to arrive at this conclusion/translation. Hope I have clarified what I am trying to ask.
Mazhar Sahib
One may know the individual meanings of all the three words. But he can not understand what has been stated by the speaker unless he knows about the role of case endings which will enable him to identify as to who is the subject of verb and who is the object of verb. And this is grammer.
In the above case from grammar we come to know who is subject of verb and what is the object of verb, but how do you come to know what is that the MEN possess their right over?
is and grammer has no role. Grammer will come into play when it is used in a sentence.
Using the word Allah as a common noun or proper noun is Grammar, may be I am wrong please correct me if I am.
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Using the word Allah as a common noun or proper noun is Grammar, may be I am wrong please correct me if I am.
A proper noun shall always remain a proper noun. And so is a common noun. Its visible or estimated state, i.e. case endings determine the role when it is an element of a sentence.
There is a detailed classification of women for the purposes of constituting a new family unit.
One sub group in the classification of women is
It includes women who are under the protection and command of persons who are not the family of those women, maid servants.
The other women that may happen to be present without their families are those believing women, already in marriage bond with non-believing men, who migrated to believing society. They are now under the protection and are obligation of the believing society, not to be allowed to be repatriated to their respective non believing husbands.
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A proper noun shall always remain a proper noun. And so is a common noun. Its visible or estimated state, i.e. case endings determine the role when it is an element of a sentence.
There is a detailed classification of women for the purposes of constituting a new family unit.
One sub group in the classification of women is
It includes women who are under the protection and command of persons who are not the family of those women, maid servants.
The other women that may happen to be present without their families are those believing women, already in marriage bond with non-believing men, who migrated to believing society. They are now under the protection and are obligation of the believing society, not to be allowed to be repatriated to their respective non believing husbands.
Salam,
Please consider revising your knowledge about MMA, you seem to confine "MMA" as to be only a subcategory of women, when AlQuran consider "MMA" to be possessed either by men and women as per 2431.
ps why are you debating about MMA in a this thread? There are many already open thread about this subjetc.
Regards
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Using the word Allah as a common noun or proper noun is Grammar, may be I am wrong please correct me if I am.
Anything under the sun can be a proper name. A proper name is essentially a meaningless label and this is why it is not translated. So you call your friend Mazhar in any language and it doesn't mean that he is really an "appearance", which is what the word means in Arabic. So when you take the word "allah" as a proper name and not translate it you make it meaningless exactly like any name of any of your friends, which doesn't reflect the truth about them. If it reflects truth then it must be a common noun. This is a universal fact in all languages independent of culture and their rules of grammar.
The rules of grammar would help you understand that the word "allah" is actually an abbreviation of "al-ilah" and that the "al" is the definite article and thus means "the god" unlike what Mazhar and you are claiming. I am surprised that Mazhar who is arguing so strongly for grammar has ignored such a simple rule that ONLY when you add the "li" (to) proposition to a word with the definite article the letter Alif is removed in the definite article and this is why we get "lilah". This is something that every native speaker knows without having to learn it.
Another example that every native Arabic speaker knows is that when you use a calling device such as the Arabic "ya" with a word with a definite article you have to add a pointing device. So you say "ya ayoha alrajul" (O you the man) and not "ya alrajul" (O the man). However, using the pointing device "ayuha" is a disrespectful way of talking to someone. This is why the standard Arabic way of calling using "ya" is never used in the great reading with the word "allah"/"al-ilah". Instead with "allah" you say "allahum" to mean "O the god" to avoid using the disrespectful pointing device "ayuha". These are all nuances of language that cannot be easily appreciated by a non-native speaker. Yes a non-native can learn the grammar but unless they become fluent speakers and immersed in the linguistic culture it is hard to know that saying something, although grammatically correct, would sound disrespectful because of the presence of the definite article and therefore in the case of "the god"/"allah" it has to be said another way.
I hope this helps clarify things a little for you.
Peace,
Ayman
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Anything under the sun can be a proper name. A proper name is essentially a meaningless label and this is why it is not translated. So you call your friend Mazhar in any language and it doesn't mean that he is really an "appearance", which is what the word means in Arabic. So when you take the word "allah" as a proper name and not translate it you make it meaningless exactly like any name of any of your friends, which doesn't reflect the truth about them. If it reflects truth then it must be a common noun. This is a universal fact in all languages independent of culture and their rules of grammar.
Proper Name is not translated in any language because it refers and points towards a specific person. A person is not a commodity or a concept that may have different descriptions in different societies. Proper name is the truth of one's existence. Proper name is or , it signifies the essence of something or a meaning established in or of itself. We refer it as Concrete Noun.
"So you call your friend Mazhar in any language and it doesn't mean that he is really an "appearance", which is what the word means in Arabic."
This understanding converts a Concrete Noun into an Abstract noun which signifies the occurence of an action or a meaning established in other than the noun itself. When Mazhar is not a Propoer Noun, then it is a derived noun which may be translated in other languages but as Personal Name it cannot be translated otherwise it will not convey the perception of existence of a man by the name MAZHAR.
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Yes a non-native can learn the grammar but unless they become fluent speakers and immersed in the linguistic culture it is hard to know that saying something, although grammatically correct, would sound disrespectful because of the presence of the definite article and therefore in the case of "the god"/"allah" it has to be said another way.
I hope this helps clarify things a little for you.
Peace,
Ayman
Yes a Lot! only addition in my opinion is not only in linguistic culture but immerse in Culture of that time as whole.
