What about non-Muslims that believe in God?
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You are the one creating threads all over this board and insulting people. You have to avoid speaking to me and a few others because you are fighting a losing battle here and you will never win any argument against Quran Only. And if you think for one second that because you dont reply that I will stop finding holes in your arguments you are very very mistaken.
Yes , go ahead find mistakes, I'll learn from them . But are you going to learn from your ignorance ? No .
As for win, I already won .
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For that you need to reflect what that "creed" was (or can be), which the "Jews" and the "Christians" desired the addressee to follow in order to be appeased.
To me that creed seems to be "my way or the highway" or "either you are with us or against us"... i.e. enforcing on others one's own ego/demons/traditions/gods.
Dear abdalquran
Please explain the harmony of 262 and 385 and whilst you are at it, what would you say about this ayat
2135 AND THEY say, "Be jews" - or, "Christians" - "and you shall be on the right path." Say "Nay, but the creed of Abraham, who turned away from all that is false, and was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God."
Furthermore
2120 For, never will the jews be pleased with thee. nor yet the Christians, unless thou follow their own creeds. Say "Behold, God's guidance is the only true guidance." And, indeed, if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee. thou wouldst have none to protect thee from God, and none to bring thee succour.
Peace
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Its interesting to read everyone's opinions. I think that anyone who believes in God and only God will be saved. I don't think that a non-Muslim who believes in God only 'will burn in hell'. I believe this, because the Quran says, see below. It is as clear as day.
Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes*; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
I once had a converstation with a Muslim person, and when I asked if my family (who are non-Muslim but believe in God) would go to heaven, the person would not say yes. I was bewildered as how someone who believes in God and does good things as humanely as possible would not get accepted into heaven because they're not Muslim.
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Its interesting to read everyone's opinions. I think that anyone who believes in God and only God will be saved. I don't think that a non-Muslim who believes in God only 'will burn in hell'. I believe this, because the Quran says, see below. It is as clear as day.
Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes*; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
I once had a converstation with a Muslim person, and when I asked if my family (who are non-Muslim but believe in God) would go to heaven, the person would not say yes. I was bewildered as how someone who believes in God and does good things as humanely as possible would not get accepted into heaven because they're not Muslim.
By that translation itself then surely it is self-evident from the first couple of words that all who genuinely believe in/submit to the creator are going to be guided.
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I once had a converstation with a Muslim person, and when I asked if my family (who are non-Muslim but believe in God) would go to heaven, the person would not say yes. I was bewildered as how someone who believes in God and does good things as humanely as possible would not get accepted into heaven because they're not Muslim.
That person is probably a 'Muhammadan' insofar as he believes that one needs to follow and adhere to 'Muhammad's rules' in order to be saved.
You should've asked him, if a Muslim (dont say Muhammadan to him please) murders innocent people, can he still go to heaven? The answer may surprise you!
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Peace,
In Qur'an verses 262 and 569 we are told that 'Those who believe/protect', those that follow the Jewish faith, those that follow Jesus (al-Nazara) and those that are from other traditions (al-Saba'een those that shift as the stars), that all these who believe in God, in a Judgment of their deeds, and uphold and create Peace and Justice, that all these people will be accepted by God (they do not to have fear or grieve).
262 Surely those who acknowledge, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and those who follow other religions, any one of them who acknowledge God and the Last day, and uphold and create Peace and Justice (amilu saliha), they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
Many commentators say that verse 262 is abrogated by 319 and 385 which states that God will only accept al-Islam as a Din/obligation/religion/behaviour, but Qur'anic commentator al-Tabarsi correctly says that Divine promises cannot be abrogated (P. 282-283, volume 1, al-Tabarsi, Majma al-Bayan fi Tafsir al-Qur?an (1070)), the concept of abrogation in the Sunni theory can only be applied to laws, not promises. Also al-Tabari in his Jami al-bayan fi ta'wil al-Qur'an (P. 155-156, volume 2) says that excluding righteous non-Muslims from God's Mercy contradicts His Justice.
What is mostly forgotten is that verse 569, which is almost exactly the same as 262 was revealed AFTER verse 385, which shows that abrogation is not possible with these verses.
So the debate is about what does al-Islam entail, the name of a religion, or a universal behaviour that is based on a few basic concepts which can be done by almost all humans, regardless of their religious affiliation? The word Islam is formIV (aslama) of the Arabic root salama, which is connected to peace, wholeness, welfare, wellbeing, and in formIV has the connation of inclining, accepting and surrendering to these concepts. To understand if islam refers to a specific religion, we must look at how formIV of salama is used in the Qur'an.
Verse 320 says
320 If they debate with you, then say, "I have peacefully accepted myself to God (aslamtu wajhiyalillahi), as well as those who follow me." In addition, say to those who were given the book and the Gentiles "Have you accepted peace (aaslamtum)?" If they have incline to peace (aslamoo) then they are guided; but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver. God is watcher over the servants.
When we look at verse 383 we see that EVERYTHING that exists surrenders to God
383 Is it other than God's system/obligation (Deeni Allahi) that they desire, when those in the heavens and the earth have inclined to peace/acceptance (aslama) to Him voluntarily or by force? To Him they will be returned.
And thus explains that Aslama isn't about a religion, but about a behaviour which entails a few basic concepts.
This is why verse 2111-112 rejects that salvation is based on adhering to a specific religion
2111-112 And they claim, "None will enter Paradise unless he is a Jew or a Christian." This is nothing but their wishful thinking. Say, "Bring your proof if you are truthful." No, whosoever inclines to peace with his whole being for God (aslama wajhahu lillahi), while being a person who improves the state of mankind (muhsinun); he will have his reward with his Developer. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
We can see a direct relation of the above verses with verses 262 and 569, as they all reject the idea that following a specific religion will make you be accepted by God. The only way not to 'have fear or grief', is at the minimum following the basic concepts of pursuing Peace in the name of God and improve the state of mankind. Both 262, 569 and 2111-112 talk about accepting God, about doing good to mankind (saliha creating peace and justice in 262, 569 and being a person that does good, muhsinum, in 2112) and the understanding of a Judgment (2112 talks about reward, 262 and 569 about the Era of the Hereafter yaum al-Akhira), all of these will take away fear and grief.
We see the same in 4133
4133 Who is better in saying than one who invites to God, and perform deeds that create justice and peace (amilu saliha), and says "I am one of those who gives over to peace (al-Muslimin)."
This is why the Din of God is a natural instinct in mankind as it is not about specifics of any religion, but built in morality
3030 Therefore, devote yourself to the right behaviour/way of life (al-Dinu hanifan). Such is the natural aim (fitrat) of God's creation of humans. And God's law of creation never changes. This is the true way of life (al-Dinu al-Qayyimu) but most people do not know.
We see in 364 that God sees the People of the Book as Muslims if they accept these three basic concepts
- Only serve God.
- Do not associate anything with God.
- Do not take each other as a Rabb/Lord/Master, meaning ALL people are equal and cannot dominate the other based on following a certain religion.
364 Say, "O People of the Book , let us come to a common statement (kalimatin sawain) between us and between you; that we do not serve except God, and do not set up anything at all with Him, and that none of us takes each other as lords (arbaban) beside God." If they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we have given over to peace and wholeness (muslimun)."
Muhammad Shahrour correctly says
?The verse says ?O People of the Book!? because Jews and Christians were addressed like this during the time of the Prophet! It also contains the ?common terms? shared by them and Muhammad?s followers worship none but God, no shirk and no idolatry, that is, they all rejected rububiyya among themselves. It ends with the admission that if they are not happy about this, they ?at least? should bear witness that he (i.e. Muhammad) is a prophet and that they (i.e. his followers) are (still) al-Muslimeen. But why did Muhammad want to testify that he and his followers are al-Muslimeen? Because he believed that Jews and Christians were themselves Muslims and he saw himself as one of them, even though later on he wanted them to join al-Iman, while he allowed them to keep their faith in Allah?s tauhid (unicity).?
(Page 358, The Qur?an, Morality and Critical Reason; The Essential Muhammad Shahrur by Andreas Christmann and Muhammad Shahrur (2009))In the Qur'an, a clear difference is made between al-Islam and al-Iman. In verse 3335 there is a difference made between al-Muslimun and al-Muminoon, in 4914 we see how al-Islam (aslamna) precedes al-Iman (right after the universalistic verse 4913), showing Al-Iman is a higher stage of al-Islam, but not a separate field or framework.
There are people who will remain in stage 1 (al-Islam) without accepting directly each other's religion or specifics, while the people who believe in ALL Revelations, from the Veda's to the Bible to the Qur'an, these people are in the stage 2 (al-Iman) and have become al-Muninun, people who believe and create security.
This is why al-Salat (4103) and al-Zakat (4162, 231-4) and 'struggling in God's way' (2216) and believing in all the previous Revelations (24, 4136) is only demanded from al-Muminun (the believers/protectors), and not from Muslims who only need to accept God and Judgment and work for peace and righteousness as stated in 262 and 569. But the Qur'an does discuss with the people from other religions not to reject the Qur'an (241) and to believe in it. The Qur'an first acknowledges all the people who follow the basics of 262, and encourages them to uphold the basic values (6151-153) which makes them Muslims, and at the same time it then tries to convince them of the truthful origins of the Qur'an so that they become believers (al-Muminun).
Islam is thus a universal pluralistic concept, and Iman is a specific concept which entails more responsibilities. That God acknowledges and accepts two stages of mankind is logical and fits His Mercy.
For a detailed discussion, please see my essay State of Mankind Introduction to Qur'anic Universalism
http//www.deenresearchcenter.com/Portals/0/State%20of%20Mankind%20Quranic%20Universalism%20by%20AYMol%20(3).pdf
This essay is currently being updated and rewritten for publication at the end of this year.
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Salam and Peace!
When a non-Muslim declares to believe in Allah, he is no more a non-Muslim.
He is a Muslim.To be saved on The Judgement Day, one needs to believe in Allah, The Judgement Day, and do righteous deeds.
-----Certainly, those who believe (in the Quran), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteous deeds, shall then have their reward with their Lord, and there shall be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve. (262)
Believing in Allah---Or---Having Iman in Allah-----is the toughest thing.
Even the people of the last ummah don't have Iman in Allah,---that is why Allah mentioned in the above Verse about the people of the last ummah even.-----They only claim to have Iman in Allah, but they don't really have Iman in Allah. -
What about non-Muslims that believe in God?
What about Mushriks that believe in God?
We all know mushriks during the time of Mohammad also believed a certain Al-Elah (Allah). Considering this fact, I may easily take the following ayat, and claim salvation for all the mushriks who were against Mohammad
6511 A messenger who recites to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him an excellent reward.
Is there any difference between arab mushriks and christians & jews. Don't they both reject Quran to be the word of Allah ??
262ers do not respect the message of Quran, and they just believe what they want to believe.
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Salam and Peace!
What about Mushriks that believe in God?
We all know mushriks during the time of Mohammad also believed a certain Al-Elah (Allah). Considering this fact, I may easily take the following ayat, and claim salvation for all the mushriks who were against Mohammad
6511 A messenger who recites to you God's revelations, which are clear, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in God and does good works, He will admit him into paradises with rivers flowing beneath; they abide therein forever. God has granted for him an excellent reward.
Is there any difference between arab mushriks and christians & jews. Don't they both reject Quran to be the word of Allah ??
262ers do not respect the message of Quran, and they just believe what they want to believe.
One who is a mushrik, is a mushrik.
And he is a mushrik, because he does not have Iman in One Ilah.
He takes others also as Ilah.
He only claims to have Iman in Allah, but he ties up his hopes with ghairullahs.These Ilah could be the Prophet, the Sahaba, Sufees, religious scholars, one's own dirty desires, etc.
Allah has announced that He will not forgive Shirk, whatsoever!
Those in 262, if they have Iman in Allah as The Only Ilah, and The Judgement Day,---and then do the righteous deeds, they will be forgiven. And they will never be mushrikeen.
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salam rahenijaat1
my post is not about salvation of mushriks but about interpretition of 262.
a mushrik also has iman in god and in afterlife and apparently there are righteous mushriks having families,ethic values, responsibilities etc...people of far east or even majority of christians who associate Jesus to Allah are good examples of faithful mushriks.
on the other hand, in ayat 262, "not associating partners to Allah" is not mentioned as a minimum requirement for salvation. then one must choose one of the 2 suggestions below
1- either 262 alone is not giving minimum requirements for salvation
2- or faithful and righteous mushriks will also get salvation (which clearly contradicts with Quran)
if you 262ers took the whole message of Quran instead of a single ayat (262) you would easily see that for salvation one must believe in the book and follow the orders in it.
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Salam and Peace, ggg!
...people of far east or even majority of christians who associate Jesus to Allah are good examples of faithful mushriks.
Faithful!!!---to whom?
Faithful to Allah???-----No, not at all, since he is mushrik, so he is not faithful to Allah.
He is faithful,-----but to the partner he sets up with Allah.
He may even be faithful to himself.my post is not about salvation of mushriks but about interpretition of 262.
a mushrik also has iman in god and in afterlife and apparently there are righteous mushriks having families,ethic values, responsibilities etc...people of far east or even majority of christians who associate Jesus to Allah are good examples of faithful mushriks.
You say that a mushrik has Iman in Allah.
Do we know what is Iman in Allah in The Light of Al-Quran?
According to my understanding of Al-Quran,
Iman in Allah is to have Iman in The Tauheed (Oneness) of Allah.
To believe that no Messenger or any othere being is a partner of Allah in His Attrubutes.
To fear Allah. To have trust in Allah. To have full confidence in Allah.
And finally, to tie up all hopes with Allah alone, and with no one else.A mushrik sets up partner with Allah in His Attrubutes.
This shows that he does not fear Allah. He has no trust in Allah. He has no confidence in Allah.
That is why he ties up his hopes with someone else, other than Allah.
So, he calls upon the partner, along with Allah.-----"Allah is the Ever Living, there is no god except Him. So call upon Him, (being) sincere to Him in religion. All the praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds." (4065)
This clearly means that a Shirk-doer, even of the muslim ummah, has no Iman in Allah.
Such a shirk-doer will never be forgiven. This is Allah's Decision.There could be people in mushrikeen, doing good deeds.
But since he has no Iman in Allah, because of his shirk,-----therefore his good deeds are not for Allah, and not to please Allah.
For his good deeds, a mushrik will be rewarded in this worldly life. He will get nothing in The Hereafter.-----"Whoever should desire what hastens away (worldly life), We hasten for him therein what We will, for whom We intend. Then We have appointed for him Hell. He will (enter to) burn therein, condemned, rejected." (171
-----"And whoever desires the Hereafter and strives for it with the effort due to it, while he is a believer, then it is those whose effort shall be appreciated." (1719)
Contemplate, in this piece of the above Verse-----"while he is a believer"-----
He must be a believer, means a momin.-----A momin can never be a mushrik.-----And a mushrik can never ever be a momin.Because a mushrik has no trust in Allah, therefore his good deeds are for sure, for the partner he sets up with Allah, or to please himself.
Then how can he ever, or, why will he ever hope for his reward from Allah in Whom he has no Iman?Only a momin who believes in Allah, and has full trust and confidence in Him, will be rewarded, because he does good deeds only to please his Allah, and not to please the Prophet or dead pious people, or even himself.
-----"(Those) who fulfill (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil shall be wide spread.
-----And who feed with food, for the love of Him, the poor, and the orphan, and the captive.
-----(Saying) ?We feed you only for the sake of Allah, we neither seek from you any reward, nor thanks.?
-----?Indeed, we fear from our Lord a Day, frowning, distressful.?
-----So Allah shall save them from the evil of that Day and give them radiance and joy." (76 7-11))===================================================================
on the other hand, in ayat 262, "not associating partners to Allah" is not mentioned as a minimum requirement for salvation. then one must choose one of the 2 suggestions below
1- either 262 alone is not giving minimum requirements for salvation
2- or faithful and righteous mushriks will also get salvation (which clearly contradicts with Quran)
-----"Certainly, those who believe (in the Quran), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteous deeds, shall then have their reward with their Lord, and there shall be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve." (262)
Good brother!
The above Verse is giving full meaning without any flaw or contradictions.---All Priase be to Allah alone!!!Read this piece of the Verse---"whoever believed in Allah"---
This has already been discussed that whoever commits shirk, do not believe in Allah alone. He sets up partner with Allah, and so he has two or more gods.
How can such a person be a momin of Allah?Contemplate,-----Allah is not saying---"whoever believed in Allah and believed in the partners he sets up with Allah"---
No,---rather Allah has made it clear like daylight, that ---"whoever believed in Allah"---if you 262ers took the whole message of Quran instead of a single ayat (262) you would easily see that for salvation one must believe in the book and follow the orders in it.
Following Al-Quran is for the one who receives The Message and understands it. He will have to follow Al-Quran at all cost. e.g. The Muslim Ummah, and others who are given a call to Allah's Quran.
But the one who is unaware of Al-Quran, for him is 262.
Peace!
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You need to figure out what a Sabien is, in order to interpret that verse properly.
There are many different ways to see it.... to spell it, even.To see 'monotheism'.... and 'polytheism' correctly.... it's more than meets the eye.
And a Nazarene, for all that.Nazareth didn't even exist during the timeline given for Christianity.
They say.... out of 72 sects, one will be right.
It's not a game of math, it's a riddle for those seeking enlightenment.Dates all the way back to Babylon and the 72 seperate tongues.
There are several levels of "one".
Any number of dimensions which compose a single point.It can't be wrapped in a dogmatic world view.
A single ceremony.Peace.
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Salaam ggg and all,
if you 262ers took the whole message of Quran instead of a single ayat (262) you would easily see that for salvation one must believe in the book and follow the orders in it.
262
Believing in Allah could be understood easily, but believing in means also believing in THE BOOK. Please see 692
692
692 And this is a Book which We have sent down, blessed and confirming what is between his hands, that you may warn the Mother of Cities and those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are maintaining their prayers.
Besides this one more thing is there in 262 " ", how is it possible without The Book?
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
I think that God is forgiving. If one believes slightly wrong, God may forgive some of that error. And not punish by hell-fire. But I don`t believe it will be a high rank in heaven either.
Association is wrong. And while I do not completely understand jinn yet, I believe they are related to thought processes. The mind is alive, so if one has a concept of a God, in ones mind that is wrong, that will take the form of jinn (atleast that is how it seems to me atm) and these will eventually delude you, by thought or impulses. If you do enough error, your own mind will degrade you, and you will have a low opinion of yourself. The logical extreme of this is completely mindlessness, going against one own nature, in favour of the jinn. In probably what is a complete state of confusion, and wrong belief. Association is of Satan. Satan follows his desire. So at this stage, there is probably promiscuity, and no particular preference for whatever might be in that of following ones desire.
Most sane people will probably stop long before this. However it is only those, with belief in a wrong faith, that will continue. These are the dwellers of hell-fire.
edit well, either take the form, or summon.
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^^^
Oh, so is that what it's all about--"a high rank in heaven"?
(By the way, why give Satan the credit for what we are responsible for?)
Actually, what is most interesting is... in this scenario you guys are pulling, the "non-Muslims" are not of your responsibility, are they? Not in this life. Not in the next. So, why are you so concerned... Could it be the "L" word?
@Truestar, has it ever crossed your mind that if you could love them the way you do (with pure love), what would the love of the Most Loving be for them?
Our human minds are very limited, yet how could we be so sure in determining the future of others, judging lives as we see fit. So the question is for those who would quote the Quran verses after verses to justify the "burning in hell In The Name Of God", or "a lower rank in heaven" etc etc ...
Will you leave this matter to the person him/herself and the Creator? Are you yourself in "heaven" already?
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Heaven is the supreme achievement (Quran).
Your comment on Satan, I dont understand.
I don`t understand your comment on "L" word either.
Love is an ambiguous term. I suggest you use compassion, or desire, wherever appropriate.
I believe the human mind has infinite potential. And what you call determining the future of others, is exactly what God does in the Quran, with good news for the believers and a warning to the associators. This is on a level, that even children can understand. What severe limitation are you talking about?
You refer back to your question, and I have answered that. Since you qoute me, I guess the question was for me.
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@Paradox Uncreated
Oh no, not everything i said is directed at you, just the first two sentences, actually. Forgive me for any confusion.
Regarding "high rank" or "low rank", i have an idea why not look closer into their lives right now, see the works they (the so-called "non-Muslims" are doing, their energy, the people whose lives are being affected/influenced by them etc (and therefore look closer into their lives too and so on and so on)... that should give us a better sense of how they would 'fit into' this heaven we are talking about, don't you think so? )
Regarding satan, well, metaphorically speaking, a "satan" is a potential that exists in every human. So, Human is the one who could potentially follow his desire (not that i label 'desire' as an absolute negative word, but just to keep it in sync with your wording). This is just my opinion, see if it rings with you or leave it. In other words, angelic or satanic. Metaphors.
Love is an ambiguous term. I suggest you use compassion, or desire, wherever appropriate.
Yes, i have made it specific to "pure love" in the following point being addressed to the topic starter who set out the context (i.e. family) )
The rest was not addressed to you specifically. However, you bring a very interesting point
I believe the human mind has infinite potential.
Yes. Very agreeable. Potential being the keyword. That is, not all is known at once.
And what you call determining the future of others, is exactly what God does in the Quran.
Exactly. Should we use this information to judge others with? I think you already know what i'm saying though.
What severe limitation are you talking about?
The limitation of not knowing perfectly the exact nature of the chosen path of any specific human, that is.
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It`s a bit difficult, because being completely non-muslim, is impossible. One is born muslim, and many carry with them natural belief in their life, regardless of what they label themselves. That is why, I believe, the Quran uses the word "associator", because they associate with God, rather than completely disbelieve.
About Satan, I believe in the Quranic statement, that satan is a jinn. I think you should really accept this Quranic logic, because it is very central to Islamic teachings.
"Pure Love" .. ) I am reading your signature, and realizing you are a romantic. Is not God the best? Why worship/love anything else?
About judging.. in the Quran are guidelines.
