Quran vs quranists

Thereformer1

see above, Wisdom has a lot of meanings in English too. Seems you are not sure what the English word Wisdom actually means. It does not mean sunnah of muhammed and if you need to to apply to sunnah of anything then its the sunnah of Allah.

For the second time . We're talking about another kind of wisdom not existing in your english vocabulery or in you Oxford dictionary . The word wisdom is after the mentionning of word the book of Allah and it is from him to every prophet, but in the verses where God mentioned Muhammed peace be upon him was after his mentioning his book and for the other prophet was without mentioning the book .

unknownuser

So, Mr Reformer,

Would this "hikma" sent down by Allah the all-knowing, all-powerful contradict itself in any way?

Thereformer1

I know what it means. Doing a root search implies that you look up the various meanings.

So, what is your answer of the questions above ?

Thereformer1

I will say one thing, "hikma" is "hikma" and "sunnah of muhammad" is "sunnah of muhammed". Where they meet, you would be correct to assume they are equivalent.

First of all you admit that Hikma and sunnah of prophet are equivalent . let me ask you this question .

Is Good said that he will protect this HIKMA ? if Yes how ? if No how ?

However substituting a word for a different word in the quran is a lie against Allah and deserves a painful yet just retribution.

I think it is not a lie, and I didn't substitute any word for a different word in Quran . I gave you what I found from my opinion and what I found from other opinions and it was the same thing from old scholars to new scholars plus the arabic language, let me remind you that language can't lie neither I can use it for lie, maybe someone will use it to decept but this deception is just for the ignorant, someone with a little bit of knowledge will know this kind of deception and detecte it . I said look for yourself and you'll that the verses where the HIKMA is behind the book of Allah in verses that speak about the prophet .

Also, the ahadeeth are vastly lacking in any so called "hikma". It's like saying mouse means "cat", indeed if you put your so-called "cat" around other cats, your "cat" shall not survive very long D

I think ahadeeth have already classified and they have also their own science. About lacking in any so called "hikma" sorry I have to dispoint you , some ahadeeth are for ligeslation and some are with wisdom, great wisdom . You can look for the palm and the muslim and read some wisdom from the prophet, in addition to this you can look the wisdom of the prophet in calling Muslim and the way he describe a muslim .

And about you mous being a cat, just bring to me one hadith that can hold your signification "mouse being cat" and please it must be with sanad Sahih or the hadith is Sahih . not here you can make another Thread if you want

Any hikma taught by Allah is perfect in its consistency, utterly lacking contradiction in any way shape or form.

Just give me one proof that hadith Sahih or Isnaad sahih is utterly . In another thread please that if you want.

Thereformer1

So, Mr Reformer,

Would this "hikma" sent down by Allah the all-knowing, all-powerful contradict itself in any way?

I've asked you a question, is God said in Quran that he will protect this "HIKMA" ? if Yes how ? if No how?

Ayisha

We're talking about wisdom from God and it is always behind the word " the book=Quran" . And it came equal to the book and the Gospel and the Torah . and It is for all prophets . As we know Ibrahim has sunnah, Mussa has sunnah too, Aissa has sunnah as well, and the list is too long , this is the meaning of wisdom in Quran , there other parts in Quran where it stated that wisdom is just wisdom. But when it came equal to his book, sorry it means something else .

Yes I know what we are talking about. the Wisdom is IN the Book. Yes Moses had sunnah and there are verses warning you what the people of Moses did in following other than the book from God, there are also verses telling you what the people did in following Jesus and not the Book of God, they went as far as making Jesus God.

All prophets had wisdom, they were wise, and they got their wisdom from Allah and it came with the books and in the books. It is not a separate thing, it is the message, the books from Allah.

Ayisha

Hikma means everything that prophet did and said(every prophet has his own sunnah), whether it is Hadith or act, so it is wisdom. or if you're not agree with me ? please prove that wisdom means wisdom ? and what is wisdom for you ?
and why it is behind the book of Allah when the verses are about the prophet ?
that is the oddest thing to say, 'please prove that wisdom means wisdom' ???
Because Allah gave the prophet the Book and the wisdom IN the book.

Look, I've searched for all the words in Quran that mentioned "HIKMA" and I found that the verses that speaks about the prophet always the HIKMA came behind the book of Allah, and in some verses equal to the Gospel and the Torah. And is a verse, it came alone and the verse was about the prophet .
Allah did not give the prophets, ANY prophets the sunnah apart from the sunnah of ALLAH, this is in Quran, it tells you this. They all followed the sunnah of Allah. the wisdom is IN the books. the Torah and Gospel and Quran are all THE BOOK. one message, one God. Any verse that Allah mentions wisdom and prophet will be because all prophets had wisdom, they were wise.

If you look careful about the verse that God metioned a prophet with HIKMA, you'll find that it is never came behind his message (of any prophet) and God in thoses verses was talking about another type of HIKMA not the same one that has been mentioned in the verses that speak about the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him .

wisdom is wisdom but if you are trying to raise one prophet higher than another you are going against Allahs book.

Ayisha

Hey, please I've done with insulting people or people insult me , keep the conversation clean . And by the way I'm not talking about any hadith , I've pointed out that HIKMA means sunnah which is by definition in Hadith , if you disagree with me proof why Wisdom in the verses that speak about the prophet came after the book of Allah and equal to Gospel and Torah ?

I said "I understand that in this verse He is saying people like YOU have to use hadith to understand the parable. This is not a good example for promoting hadith."
Please tell me what is insulting or unclean about that.
You are not talking about hadith but sunnah which is by definition in hadith, so you ARE talking about hadith. the wisdom spoken about is IN these books, thats why its spoken about after mentioning these books.

Is that really what came in the verse ? can you just give me a little proof that God said that people without wisdom searching in other books to explain ? is it forbidden to search about explanation from other books ?
You posted the verses yourself. read them

I didn't add anything, this is translation of a person and he translated the word HIKMA the same as I found it , is not that coincidence ?

you added the words in brackets, they are not ther in the original Arabic are they.

Thereformer1

Yes I know what we are talking about. the Wisdom is IN the Book. Yes Moses had sunnah and there are verses warning you what the people of Moses did in following other than the book from God, there are also verses telling you what the people did in following Jesus and not the Book of God, they went as far as making Jesus God.

Yes, you're right. They followed what satan told him, the sunnah of Mussa was fine and so the Torah, they distorted both of them and they have also the saheeh in their both books .

The Gospel is full of the wisdom of Jesus, and there are some are fine and some are not fine (wrong ) according to some purposes and discrimniation .

And both of them are deeds and reports and saying . So it is their sunnah and it is different from the sunnah of prophet that has came for all and it will banned a lot in both of the sunnah of Mussa and of Jesus and of Abarahm as well and of David too .

All prophets had wisdom, they were wise, and they got their wisdom from Allah and it came with the books and in the books. It is not a separate thing, it is the message, the books from Allah.

You said it came with books and in the books , can you explain how ? and why God said the book alone than after him the HIKMA ? if it is in the book as you claiming what the word is alone and Matoufa on book ?

why God didn't say for example " we sent the book that you can take HIKMA from it" ?

Ayisha

Yes, you're right. They followed what satan told him, the sunnah of Mussa was fine and so the Torah, they distorted both of them and they have also the saheeh in their both books .
they added the claimed hadith of moses to the religion which is how they went astray. Do some research.

The Gospel is full of the wisdom of Jesus, and there are some are fine and some are not fine (wrong ) according to some purposes and discrimniation .
You have read the Gospel have you? which one?

And both of them are deeds and reports and saying . So it is their sunnah and it is different from the sunnah of prophet that has came for all and it will banned a lot in both of the sunnah of Mussa and of Jesus and of Abarahm as well and of David too .
anything that bans anything from another prophet is NOT anything to do with God who gave all messages to all prophets.

You said it came with books and in the books , can you explain how ? and why God said the book alone than after him the HIKMA ? if it is in the book as you claiming what the word is alone and Matoufa on book ?

why God didn't say for example " we sent the book that you can take HIKMA from it" ?

how can you make wisdom? you cant. its like common sense, you either have it or you dont. it cant be made.

zulu12

But some would say that The Prophet PBUH's job was only to deliver the message. So why would he need Wisdom?

Delivering a message and explaining a message with wisdom are two different duties and responsibilities? No?

For people who are struggling with the topic, maybe you should counter with the following ayats

358 THIS MESSAGE do We convey unto thee, and this tiding full of wisdom

101 Alif Lam. Ra. THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom.

312 THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom,

362 Consider this Qur?an full of wisdom

But the problem arises when the Arabic term Book and Wisdom comes into the equation.

Thereformer1 is correct in asking, what is this magic word Wisdom in light of the Quran?

Finally, can someone please explain the following ayat explaining the differences or meanings if any, of revelation, wisdom and prophethood as 3 seperate entities as mentioned or does it mean one and the same thing?

4516 AND, INDEED, unto the children of Israel did We vouchsafe revelation, and wisdom, and prophethood; and We provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life, and favoured them above all other people .

Peace

Thereformer1

that is the oddest thing to say, 'please prove that wisdom means wisdom' ???
Because Allah gave the prophet the Book and the wisdom IN the book.

I'll use your logic can you answer this question " why God didn't say this word like this way " and we sent the book to take wisdom from it" ? you have to know that the word wisdom came after "Waw" which waw al atf and it means that there is a difference between the first word and the second one

Allah did not give the prophets, ANY prophets the sunnah apart from the sunnah of ALLAH, this is in Quran, it tells you this. They all followed the sunnah of Allah. the wisdom is IN the books. the Torah and Gospel and Quran are all THE BOOK. one message, one God. Any verse that Allah mentions wisdom and prophet will be because all prophets had wisdom, they were wise.
wisdom is wisdom but if you are trying to raise one prophet higher than another you are going against Allahs book.

The Sunnah of Allah is the same sunnah of prophet or why would God said "obey the prophet is obeying him" ? are this "obey" means just take Quran ? if Yes show me where in Quran ? and I think you know that obey the prophet can be physically, and it physically and it is an order .

Thereformer1

If the word wisdom that came in Quran is not what prophet did and said and reported(by definition sunnah in hadith), why would God said " 2151. Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you), We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad &#1605 of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Qur??n) and purifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Qur??n) and the Hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Isl?mic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.

look at what God said " we have sent among you(the believers) a messanger of your own, for what ? >> for reciting to you(th believers ) Our verses .., and teaching you (the believers the book (Quran) and then God said and Al-HIKMA .

why would God mentioned that teaching " the book and Hikma" if they are the same ?

Thereformer1

But some would say that The Prophet PBUH's job was only to deliver the message. So why would he need Wisdom?
Delivering a message and explaining a message with wisdom are two different duties and responsibilities? No?
For people who are struggling with the topic, maybe you should counter with the following ayats
358 THIS MESSAGE do We convey unto thee, and this tiding full of wisdom
101 Alif Lam. Ra. THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom.
312 THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom,
362 Consider this Qur?an full of wisdom
But the problem arises when the Arabic term Book and Wisdom comes into the equation.
Thereformer1 is correct in asking, what is this magic word Wisdom in light of the Quran?
Finally, can someone please explain the following ayat explaining the differences or meanings if any, of revelation, wisdom and prophethood as 3 seperate entities as mentioned or does it mean one and the same thing?
4516 AND, INDEED, unto the children of Israel did We vouchsafe revelation, and wisdom, and prophethood; and We provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life, and favoured them above all other people .
Peace

Thanks Zulu12 for the adds, I've worked about the subject and I've took it from a lot of point of views and then I wrote this topic, I've compared yesterday a lot of verses and interpretations and I have took even the interpretation of some quranists to be neutral and then I come up with the conclusion that the word wisdom is not about wisdom literally .

Ayisha

I'll use your logic can you answer this question " why God didn't say this word like this way " and we sent the book to take wisdom from it" ? you have to know that the word wisdom came after "Waw" which waw al atf and it means that there is a difference between the first word and the second one
you are questioning God on why He said things in a certain way? o

Your question shows that you do not understand what WISDOM really means, so there is no point in me answering and the other poster was right. You claim wisdom doesnt mean wisdom and want proof that it does? ??? sorry not wasting my time banging my head on another brick wall. Wisdom is NOT a book and it is not sunnah or hadith and it never will be no matter how you twist it.

The Sunnah of Allah is the same sunnah of prophet or why would God said "obey the prophet is obeying him" ? are this "obey" means just take Quran ? if Yes show me where in Quran ? and I think you know that obey the prophet can be physically, and it physically and it is an order .

The prophet followed the sunnah of Allah which is in Quran. The hadith is the hadith of Allah in Quran. Are you telling me that Allah did everything as is in the HADITH of Bukhari?

Ayisha

If the word wisdom that came in Quran is not what prophet did and said and reported(by definition sunnah in hadith), why would God said " 2151. Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you), We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad &#1605 of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Qur??n) and purifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Qur??n) and the Hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Isl?mic laws and Fiqh - jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know.

look at what God said " we have sent among you(the believers) a messanger of your own, for what ? >> for reciting to you(th believers ) Our verses .., and teaching you (the believers the book (Quran) and then God said and Al-HIKMA .

why would God mentioned that teaching " the book and Hikma" if they are the same ?

I have made bold everything you have added to Gods words that are not in the Arabic Quran.

As the verse says the prophet is to RECITE the verses from QURAN and in doing that it will teach them the wisdom of what they didnt know, like jesus was not crucified, like not worshipping others besides Allah etc etc. There is much wisdom IN the book that the prophet was to RECITE. unfortunately God also said there will be those that just dont 'get it'

Thereformer1

you are questioning God on why He said things in a certain way? o

No, I'm questioning you not God because you said that wisdom is Quran whic they are separated in more than 20 verses.

Your question shows that you do not understand what WISDOM really means, so there is no point in me answering and the other poster was right.

If I don't understand the word wisdom, what about the famous interpreters of Quran. Are they also don't understand the word ? or do you have another meaning of the word, care to enlighten us from Quran ? Denying this fact is denying Quran as it is from it, nothing from my mind.

As I said before you're afraid of living the same nightmares of your first fallacies .This is the only reason I see for you.

You claim wisdom doesnt mean wisdom and want proof that it does? ???

I already proved that, and it is not just me alone . If you are correct that correct us with proof ? don't just say it is.

let me remind you what God said about claiming something must be with proof " 2111. And they say, "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad &#1605, "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

sorry not wasting my time banging my head on another brick wall. Wisdom is NOT a book and it is not sunnah or hadith and it never will be no matter how you twist it.

Is that too hard to understand ? you said it is not, so tell us why and how ?

The prophet followed the sunnah of Allah which is in Quran. The hadith is the hadith of Allah in Quran. Are you telling me that Allah did everything as is in the HADITH of Bukhari?

No, this is your answer . until you answer this question you'll get more details " is God said that he will protect this HIKMA ? as it seems it came before the Torah and the Gospel who they already had been distorted .

Thereformer1

I have made bold everything you have added to Gods words that are not in the Arabic Quran.

Sorry to dispoint you, the translator is the one who add these things and it is not an add because he gave you the meaning and it is correct, if it is Arabic you'll guess these things yourself .

As the verse says the prophet is to RECITE the verses from QURAN

Are you sure ? God said " reciting our verses" and he didn't say Quran because he mentioned Quran alone and the same verse after "and" , go look for the original text in arabic . But you take the meaning from a translator that he means by verses (Quran) . Well let me remind you that the verses of Allah are not just Quran .

and in doing that it will teach them the wisdom of what they didnt know, like jesus was not crucified, like not worshipping others besides Allah etc etc. There is much wisdom IN the book that the prophet was to RECITE. unfortunately God also said there will be those that just dont 'get it'

is telling people Jesus not crucified wisdom ??? are you sure ? you said before that it is correcting some fallacies . Are you aware what does wisdom mean ? . No the prophet was to recite and to teach and to warn .

Ayisha

Sorry to dispoint you, the translator is the one who add these things and it is not an add because he gave you the meaning and it is correct, if it is Arabic you'll guess these things yourself .
I know who the translator is and I know he adds words to Allah because he adds hadith to Allahs words too. You are as much a criminal in this as he is because you use this translation with added hadith.

Are you sure ? God said " reciting our verses" and he didn't say Quran because he mentioned Quran alone and the same verse after "and" , go look for the original text in arabic .

So are you saying that 'reciting to you Our verses' means Allah recited the hadith and then Quran? 'The verses' are the verses of Quran. ???

But you take the meaning from a translator that he means by verses (Quran) . Well let me remind you that the verses of Allah are not just Quran .
so what other 'verses' did Allah recite?

is telling people Jesus not crucified wisdom ??? are you sure ? you said before that it is correcting some fallacies . Are you aware what does wisdom mean ? . No the prophet was to recite and to teach and to warn .

yes I am aware what wisdom means but I really dont think you are. The prophet was to recite Quran verses, this IS teaching and IN the Quran verses there ARE warnings against doing what you are doing!

savage_carrot

No, I'm questioning you not God because you said that wisdom is Quran whic they are separated in more than 20 verses.
So if I was to say, here is a book and it is full of wisdom...you'd think that wisdom just can't be the book because they are "separated"? Jeez.

Wisdom is, for example, a course of action that is tested by experience etc as being right in certain circumstances (in hindsight for example) that one can use in similar situations as a tried and tested method of success for any particular endeavour...so if I say Sun Tzu's Art of War has some wisdom in it...it means I would read it, match it with experience, external situations if I must, correlate the two and decide, wow...that guy was quite brilliant for his time. I don't need Sun Tzu alive and kicking because I have the book he wrote, I don't need a series of people over the ages telling me what they thought Sun Tzu meant, as long as I have the book and my wits I can whip any army and make them beg, so to say.

Why not just use the original source then and dump the extraneous bs when it is in such bad shape that it contradicts, adds, substracts and dances a jig all over the dead body? When the source itself says to do so? It's human nature to add useless things to something simple... to set themselves apart, to form numerous little pockets of resistance to something that needs no addition/complication because that's how they think they'll get one over the others.