Quran vs quranists
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Is that about Quran ? if Yes how, if No how ?
I can tell through this exchange that you are myopic to the extent that you cannot see beyond a sentence to the next and how they relate.Yes, sure. I didn't say the opposite. The question is simple in understanding is the book and wisdom are the same thing ? if yes how? if no why and how?
Let me remind you again that this kind of wisdom is from God .
Let's say the book is only as good as the reader.So, the answer is yes but Charlie the unicorn is not going to paradise. Let me introduce Islam to you sister ?
I suppose you see the end of days too? The wise thing to do, is to introduce something that you would be well acquainted with.Well, that's depend on you . Did you ?
I find such games tedious.You didn't answer my question (how did you take wisdom from it? )
Here we go again, re-read my post please. Now, how do you extract wisdom? Do you take everything as is? Do you question, understand, analyse and reason?If Yes, know that your post is talking about wisdom of Charlie the unicorn .
No. How did you manage to last so long on forums with this style of illogical debate is my question. -
Leyna , please if you have anything about the subject enlighten us ?
Sorry, that reply was so surreal, it just cracked me up! peace
Actually, I think you raised a very interesting subject. But this thread -- like most others -- is already going down the drain with insults, game playing etc., and I am just not in the mood for any sort of exchange along the lines of "I am right and you are wrong".
nope
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I can tell through this exchange that you are myopic to the extent that you cannot see beyond a sentence to the next and how they relate.
Let's say the book is only as good as the reader.
I suppose you see the end of days too? The wise thing to do, is to introduce something that you would be well acquainted with.
I find such games tedious.
Here we go again, re-read my post please. Now, how do you extract wisdom? Do you take everything as is? Do you question, understand, analyse and reason?
No. How did you manage to last so long on forums with this style of illogical debate is my question.You didn't answer my questions, so what is the purpose of speaking with you ? as it seems that you want to hide the real subject of the thread which is "The book and The wisdom" .
If you're going to speak about that you're welcome, if you are not please leave behind you a beautiful trace and God guides to his path .
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Actually, I think you raised a very interesting subject. But this thread -- like most others -- is already going down the drain with insults, game playing etc., and I am just not in the mood for any sort of exchange along the lines of "I am right and you are wrong".
No, I'll not leave the thread going down as you think. If people are going to speak about the subject, fine . If not, I'll stop them with respect . I think you can realise this from my posts .
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So, if it is not something tangible as you claimed why it comes after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah ? let me remind you that these things are tangible .
I know that there is another kind of wisdom that it is not tangible but it is not the one described in Quran after "the book" and God also told us about this kind of wisdom .Are you seriously saying that because Allah said hikma in a verse after he said the word Quran and hikma before he said torah and gospel in a verse that you think this is something different and tangible? Nothing came after the book. I cannot believe you are bending over backwards debating one word and trying to claim it means something totally different to what it does, in order to lead people away from Quran and onto something else!
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Are you seriously saying that because Allah said hikma in a verse after he said the word Quran and hikma before he said torah and gospel in a verse that you think this is something different and tangible?
Yes, because I've cited in my research every word in Quran where God mentioned "HIKMA" and I found it too different from the wisdom that all we know . And it is because my language sorry I can differ between the meaning of HIKMA and this verse and the meaning of the other in another verse .
There are two kind of wisdom in Quran The one that mind can extract and the one that God gave and it changes from prophet to prophet .
or why would God said "all the prophets were given the book ? is it the same book ?
Nothing came after the book. I cannot believe you are bending over backwards debating one word and trying to claim it means something totally different to what it does, in order to lead people away from Quran and onto something else!
I can not believe that you can noot understand the proofs from Quran itself and you're claiming that you're a follower of Quran . I'm not leading anyone away from Quran, as you see I'm using Quran , do you ?
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You didn't answer my questions, so what is the purpose of speaking with you ? as it seems that you want to hide the real subject of the thread which is "The book and The wisdom" .
If you're going to speak about that you're welcome, if you are not please leave behind you a beautiful trace and God guides to his path .
Not this time gadget, I'm not letting you get away with your games. You've already acknowledged that I've answered in your previous post, then you turn around and play the offended victim crying I didn't? What the heck? Adding to God's words won't change what's already therein. That's all you're doing, and this is why we have a protected book so that people through the ages can separate the bs from the truth.
Hikmah mentioned in the quran (not your average lay person hikmah, no sir) is hadith (the real god given hikmah aka sayings of the prophet) that was made up/collected centuries after the revelation, that contradicts, adds, substracts and dances all over the original. Yeah.
So basically even though the quran says listen to the best hadith (itself), there is wisdom in it...that falls on deaf ears. When the quran says, here is a book and wisdom...ooOh, that must mean bukhari et al. Gosh, no wonder wisdom is so hard to come by.
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Yes, because I've cited in my research every word in Quran where God mentioned "HIKMA" and I found it too different from the wisdom that all we know . And it is because my language sorry I can differ between the meaning of HIKMA and this verse and the meaning of the other in another verse .
so you are claiming that when God says hikma AFTER He says Quran it means a different hikma to when He says it before He says Torah and Gospel? Please explain how you arrive at that conclusion because wisdom is wisdom.There are two kind of wisdom in Quran The one that mind can extract and the one that God gave and it changes from prophet to prophet .
God gave all prophets wisdom, they were wise. Wisdom means many things, if one is wise he understand many things, but wisdom is wisdom.or why would God said "all the prophets were given the book ? is it the same book ?
yes thats why he said he gave them all The Book ???I can not believe that you can noot understand the proofs from Quran itself and you're claiming that you're a follower of Quran . I'm not leading anyone away from Quran, as you see I'm using Quran , do you ?
I cannot believe you are trying to twist Quran and say it says something else by putting one word in front of another. You have been given proofs from Quran that the hadith to follow is Allahs hadith yet you ignore that. You have been given proofs from Quran that it is wrong to follow conjecture but here you are trying to convince us that is what we are to follow. I have had solid proof you have no knowledge of Quran Islam or hadith yet I still keep trying to make your blind eyes open along with others here.
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Not this time gadget, I'm not letting you get away with your games.
I don't need to play games when I use Quran(it is not for playing), as I see you can't answer the questions of my posts neither the answer of the thread.
You've already acknowledged that I've answered in your previous post, then you turn around and play the offended victim crying I didn't?
You didn't answer, I'm not lying. You're trying to avoid my answers, well let's rewrite them again
look at what God said " The book and the wisdom " are they the same thing ? if Yes how, if No how?
can you tell us how did you take wisdom from it (the book of God) and the book of Sun Tzu art of war?
Are you a christian ?
none of these questions have been answered neither the questions in the thread .....
What the heck? Adding to God's words won't change what's already therein. That's all you're doing, and this is why we have a protected book so that people through the ages can separate the bs from the truth.
I'm not asking the impossible agree with me why, and how / disgaree with me why, and how with proofs.
Hikmah mentioned in the quran (not your average lay person hikmah, no sir) is hadith (the real god given hikmah aka sayings of the prophet) that was made up/collected centuries after the revelation, that contradicts, adds, substracts and dances all over the original. Yeah.
HIKMA is mentioned in Quran and it is not the same as the HIKMA that came after the book of Allah, if you disagree with this please give me one single proof from Quran explaining every HIKMA and that all of them means wisdom , just wisdom. I can use Arabic and I'll make you lost .
So basically even though the quran says listen to the best hadith (itself), there is wisdom in it...that falls on deaf ears. When the quran says, here is a book and wisdom...ooOh, that must mean bukhari et al. Gosh, no wonder wisdom is so hard to come by.
Yes, I didn't deny that God's book contains wisdom, the answer is is it the same wisdom in all the verses ? especilay the one that mentioned in it the prophet .
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so you are claiming that when God says hikma AFTER He says Quran it means a different hikma to when He says it before He says Torah and Gospel? Please explain how you arrive at that conclusion because wisdom is wisdom.
I did explain in my thread. If you go to mark every word that talks about "HIKMA" with red pen, you'll find two different Hikma. the HIKMA that came after the book of Allah and it is in 12 verses, and the one that God mentioned that it is for all prophet and they are both different totally .
I can explain more but because of time . I don't just reply to you .
God gave all prophets wisdom, they were wise. Wisdom means many things, if one is wise he understand many things, but wisdom is wisdom.
Yes, I didn't say the opposite but it is another wisdom not the wisdom literally .
yes thats why he said he gave them all The Book ???
Is it the same book ? you said yes but you didn't justify . is that what Quran said that Quran is the Gospel and is the Torah and is the Zabour.
I cannot believe you are trying to twist Quran and say it says something else by putting one word in front of another.
I'm not try to twist you, you want to go and look for and understand and see, go. But denying this without knowledge is denying what came in Quran .
You have been given proofs from Quran that the hadith to follow is Allahs hadith yet you ignore that.
Did I say the opposite ? No >> I follow Quran and it is the first one for me, but Hadith is its little brother . This is not the subject, we are talking about "The book and The wisdom" .
You have been given proofs from Quran that it is wrong to follow conjecture but here you are trying to convince us that is what we are to follow. I have had solid proof you have no knowledge of Quran Islam or hadith yet I still keep trying to make your blind eyes open along with others here.
If you said so and that's will make you happy, fine . So be my guest .
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I don't need to play games when I use Quran(it is not for playing), as I see you can't answer the questions of my posts neither the answer of the thread.
You contradict yourself from post to post. It's tiresome but at least we have a written record on the forum as evidence.You didn't answer, I'm not lying. You're trying to avoid my answers, well let's rewrite them again
look at what God said " The book and the wisdom " are they the same thing ? if Yes how, if No how?
can you tell us how did you take wisdom from it (the book of God) and the book of Sun Tzu art of war?
Are you a christian ?
none of these questions have been answered neither the questions in the thread .....
You must be joking. At least we have a written record to verify. Obviously this is directed at others, not you since your myopia is well established at this point. Whether I am christian, jewish or a tap dancing mongoose is irrelevant.I'm not asking the impossible agree with me why, and how / disgaree with me why, and how with proofs.
I think I'm asking the impossible a logical discussion.HIKMA is mentioned in Quran and it is not the same as the HIKMA that came after the book of Allah, if you disagree with this please give me one single proof from Quran explaining every HIKMA and that all of them means wisdom , just wisdom. I can use Arabic and I'll make you lost .
So, according to what you write...Hikma mentioned in the quran is NOT the same Hikma that came after the quran...then you say Hikma in the quran are two "Hikma's" and one of them is different from all other "Hikma's" in the quran but you can't explain why without adding to the verses when the quran explains itself, when it calls itself complete and all we need for our salvation -\ You can know all the arabic in the world, it won't help you if you don't use reasoning/logic.Yes, I didn't deny that God's book contains wisdom, the answer is is it the same wisdom in all the verses ? especilay the one that mentioned in it the prophet .
Apparently from your posts on the subject that I've read...there is a different hikma present in the quran, which is not like the other hikma and this refers to hikma after the quran that is, the hadith, thus you quote here
- This is (part) of Al-Hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character) which your Lord has revealed to you (O Muhammad م. And set not up with All?h any other il?h (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected, (from All?h?s Mercy).
forth of all The things that have been mentioned before are part of Al-HIKMA and this HIKMA is not the same HIKMA that came after the book of Allah and God knows.
Why don't you take out the additions? It makes sense even then! Lo! How can this be? ...Why must you needlessly obfuscate simple concepts? I think most of us know why, but taking out the additions will not sit well with you, will it? God knows, that is why we have the quran, so that we too, can know. -
You contradict yourself from post to post. It's tiresome but at least we have a written record on the forum as evidence.
Ok, Prove that I'm contradicting myself .
You must be joking. At least we have a written record to verify. Obviously this is directed at others, not you since your myopia is well established at this point. Whether I am christian, jewish or a tap dancing mongoose is irrelevant.
You didn't answer
I think I'm asking the impossible a logical discussion.
You didn't answer .
So, according to what you write...Hikma mentioned in the quran is NOT the same Hikma that came after the quran...then you say Hikma in the quran are two "Hikma's" and one of them is different from all other "Hikma's" in the quran but you can't explain why without adding to the verses when the quran explains itself, when it calls itself complete and all we need for our salvation -\ You can know all the arabic in the world, it won't help you if you don't use reasoning/logic.
I said why , read my thread , and if you disgaree bring proof from Quran as you claiming that it explains itself, use Quran , are you afraid of scandal you .
Apparently from your posts on the subject that I've read...there is a different hikma present in the quran, which is not like the other hikma and this refers to hikma after the quran that is, the hadith, thus you quote here
Why don't you take out the additions?what additions ? the real important word here is "HIkma" after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah and God said that it is for teaching .
It makes sense even then! Lo! How can this be?
what do you mean ? am I giving you something not in Quran ? you follow Quran then answer by Quran and stop playing, I know what do you want, is to insult and be rude , so that you can banned me, sorry to disappoint you I'll not lose my temper . You did it before let alone you have tried to restrict me talking about hadith.
...Why must you needlessly obfuscate simple concepts?
This is not the subject and I don't know what do you mean by simple concepts
I think most of us know why,
OK , why ? and bring those (most of us) , the whole Quranist will not be more than 80.000 and goos knows.And I already defeat some of them.
but taking out the additions will not sit well with you, will it? God knows, that is why we have the quran, so that we too, can know.
you tell me .
Ah you have the Quran , well let me just greet you by this verse
( . ) .
the name of the surah is "At-tawba" the verses are 124-125 . Go look for the translators and what they said.
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By cut and paste?
Ah, I know that you don't believe that I'm Arab. Be my guest , I'm offering you to come and visit me and we will debate about anything you want (Arabic, Quran, science, ..etc) .
P.S Please keep on-Topic
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I said why , read my thread , and if you disgaree bring proof from Quran as you claiming that it explains itself, use Quran , are you afraid of scandal you .
I hope you wont add after the red word "through the courtesy of Bukhari and company", or "secretively".
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I hope you wont add after the red word "through the courtesy of Bukhari and company", or "secretively".
(16) (17) (1 (19)
Oh you have revealed my second weapon, if you really do understand this verse, hahah, sorry this shows your ignorance , even the verses you can't understand them, what a shame .
Please can you speak about the subject, I'll make another Thread about this surah(Al-Qiyama) and the verses in it .
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So , not only do you not have the courtesy to re-read previous posts as you've been asked time and time again or the capacity to understand what a person is saying (deducing/comprehending from sentence to sentence and then as a whole) as you've been asked time and time again...you have the gall and audacity to cry no answer? Pal, you make the average "sunni" look good by contrast. We've had some decent discussions here, sunni, shia, sufi what not, but you are of a different ilk. Now that I've experienced this first-hand, I truly know what the others have been going through when they've entered into "discussions" with you.
I said why , read my thread , and if you disgaree bring proof from Quran as you claiming that it explains itself, use Quran , are you afraid of scandal you .
As I've been saying all along, the quran doesn't need your additions, it reads fine without it and there is no proof/evidence for "hikma outside the quran/after the quran in the quran pointing to the "sayings of the prophet" as part and parcel of some god given package deal that must be accepted or else" without you adding your own words to it. End of.what additions ? the real important word here is "HIkma" after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah and God said that it is for teaching .
Wise people can try to teach what they know, it doesn't follow that those they try to teach absorb the wisdom magically just by repeating stuff like a pirate parrot. It is a process of using one's god-given faculties...for the rest, read above.what do you mean ? am I giving you something not in Quran ? you follow Quran then answer by Quran and stop playing, I know what do you want, is to insult and be rude , so that you can banned me, sorry to disappoint you I'll not lose my temper . You did it before let alone you have tried to restrict me talking about hadith.
You've already lost the plot, you can keep your temper, s'okay.This is not the subject and I don't know what do you mean by simple concepts
It is the subject...there is no need for additions. The quran is easy to learn, complete and fully detailed and all we need for our spiritual salvation.OK , why ? and bring those (most of us) , the whole Quranist will not be more than 80.000 and goos knows.And I already defeat some of them.
Er, whatever.you tell me .
Ah you have the Quran , well let me just greet you by this verse
( . ) .
the name of the surah is "At-tawba" the verses are 124-125 . Go look for the translators and what they said.
)
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So , not only do you not have the courtesy to re-read previous posts as you've been asked time and time again or the capacity to understand what a person is saying (deducing/comprehending from sentence to sentence and then as a whole) as you've been asked time and time again...you have the gall and audacity to cry no answer? Pal, you make the average "sunni" look good by contrast. We've had some decent discussions here, sunni, shia, sufi what not, but you are of a different ilk. Now that I've experienced this first-hand, I truly know what the others have been going through when they've entered into "discussions" with you.
As I've been saying all along, the quran doesn't need your additions, it reads fine without it and there is no proof/evidence for "hikma outside the quran/after the quran in the quran pointing to the "sayings of the prophet" as part and parcel of some god given package deal that must be accepted or else" without you adding your own words to it. End of.
Wise people can try to teach what they know, it doesn't follow that those they try to teach absorb the wisdom magically just by repeating stuff like a pirate parrot. It is a process of using one's god-given faculties...for the rest, read above.
You've already lost the plot, you can keep your temper, s'okay.
It is the subject...there is no need for additions. The quran is easy to learn, complete and fully detailed and all we need for our spiritual salvation.
Er, whatever.You don't answer neither in your hand to bring a verse proving what you said, as I see you never use a verse . ok I'm going to forget the old questions but I want just one to answer if Quran explain itself can you tell me about what God is talking about in this verse (17. It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad م the ability to recite it (the Qur??n).) what God means by collect it ? and what he means by the ability to recite it? .
If it explain itself, I challenge you, just give me one opinion of you with justifying from Quran . And make it in another topic and be sure I'll scandal you .
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very interesting thread!
God sent down Al-Hikma i.e. the sunnah of the Prophet? and I thought that the book belonged to God and sunna to the prophet! confused
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You don't answer neither in your hand to bring a verse proving what you said, as I see you never use a verse . ok I'm going to forget the old questions but I want just one to answer if Quran explain itself can you tell me about what God is talking about in this verse (17. It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad م the ability to recite it (the Qur??n).) what God means by collect it ? and what he means by the ability to recite it? .
If it explain itself, I challenge you, just give me one opinion of you with justifying from Quran . And make it in another topic and be sure I'll scandal you .
Oooh you'll... scandal me? Okay then, bring it on. I'm not making another topic for this, let this be a record of where your "discussions" go.
7516 MOVE NOT thy tongue in haste,
Muhammad Asad - End Note 6 (7516)
Lit., "Move not thy tongue therewith so that thou might hasten if" - the pronoun undoubtedly referring to the contents of revelation. In order to understand this parenthetic passage (verses 16-19) more fully, one should read it side by side with the related passage in 20114, together with the corresponding note 101. Both these passages are in the first instance addressed to the Prophet, who is said to have been afraid that he might forget some of the revealed words unless he repeated them at the very moment of revelation; but both have also a wider import inasmuch as they apply to every believer who reads, listens to or studies the Qur'an. In 20114 we are told not to draw hasty - and therefore potentially erroneous - conclusions from isolated verses or statements of the Qur'an, since only the study of the whole of its message can give us a correct insight. The present passage, on the other hand, lays stress on the need to imbibe the divine writ slowly, patiently, to give full thought to the meaning of every word and phrase, and to avoid the kind of haste which is indistinguishable from mechanical glibness, and which, moreover, induces the person who reads, recites or listens to it to remain satisfied with the mere beautiful sound of the Qur'anic language without understanding - or even paying adequate attention to - its message.7517 for, behold, it is for Us to gather it and to cause it to be read .7
Muhammad Asad - End Note 7 (7517)
I.e., "it is for Us to make thee remember it and to cause it to be read with mind and heart". As pointed out in the preceding note, the Qur'an can be understood only if it is read thoughtfully, as one integral whole, and not as a mere collection of moral maxims, stories or disjointed laws.7518 Thus, when We recite it, follow thou its wording 8
Muhammad Asad - End Note 8 (751
Lit., "follow thou its recitation", i.e., its message as expressed in words. Since it is God who reveals the Qur'an and bestows upon man the ability to understand it, He attributes its "recitation" to Himself.7519 and then, behold, it will be for Us to make its meaning clear.9
Muhammad Asad - End Note 9 (7519)
I.e., if the Qur'an is read ''as it ought to be read" (see note 7 above), it becomes - as stressed by Muhammad Abduh - "its own best commentary".I await the scandal me with much trepidation.