Circumcision issue
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Peace
I did not accept anything but you can keep reading my words like it's a foreign tongue to you. Your post is dripping with frustration. I will say that I do disagree with you and your particular authorities. I leave you with this, that what convinces is not necessarily true.
Joe
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I don't understand the point of your post Joe. Who do you consider my particular authorities - scientists in general? And what do you mean by "what convinces is not necessarily true" -surely that is a criticism of argument based upon emotion, which is what the anti-circumcision ideology is based upon, describing circumcision is hugely emotional terms like "mutilation" and the way they use logical fallacies, conflating religious practises with medical practises, and adult with child circumcision, to falsely attempt to portray it as dangerous.
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In maldives all boys are circumsised. Very few girls are also circumcised.
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The anti-circumcision lobby is largely based upon anti-semiticim and systematically seeks to obcure evidence of how circumcision improves men's sexual health and genital hygine. Failure to practice circumcision is singly responsible for a large proportion of AIDs deaths in Africa over the past 2 decades.
I hate to be a dick about it (pun intended), but if you believe circumcision is a good thing, you're actually not even really Muslim, because you are calling God a liar.
You will freely admit that the Quran states that God created humans in the perfect form
We have created people in the best form.
But then you say that Humans should be circumsized! Obviously you don't believe that humans are in the perfect form!
It doesn't make a whole ton of sense that Allah would say that humans were created perfect, and then go on to say that you need to chop off bits of a baby boy or else he can't be a true Muslim. Either his creation was perfect, and doesn't need to be changed, or it needs to be changed, and it wasn't perfect. Ya can't have both ways.
And of course, the Quran actually goes against this logic
4119 "I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make change to God's creation." Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
Hey, you know what ELSE lowers the infection rate of STDs??? Oh yeah, a CONDOM. Even if STD infection rates were lower (slightly) in circumcised males, that doesn't mean that God didn't want it that way. Obviously you don't trust the Quran, and you go against God and call him a liar. An uncircumcised penis also has MANY benefits, not to mention that in this day and age where people regularly bath, the hygiene isn't a big issue.
I would never take a knife to my kid's dick unless he asks for it, and I'll pull a bigger knife on anybody who tries to knife to mine. voodoo
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That's a metaphor. God didn't actually fashion us from clay, he doesn't have hands, he isn't even a he. Our bodies actually evolved from lower life forms which needed a foreskin to protect their penis from abrasion because they hadn't invented underwear. He made our soul perfect, our body is only as good as our evolutionary environment.
Since compared with our ancestors, underwear is more common and so are STDs (not just HIV- most sex viruses like HPV and syphilis aren't stopped by a condom), it makes less sense to have a foreskin and more sense to get circumcised. I honestly don't think God cares whether or not we're circumcised. It's for our benefit, not God's. It makes us cleaner and less disease prone.
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That's a metaphor. God didn't actually fashion us from clay, he doesn't have hands, he isn't even a he. Our bodies actually evolved from lower life forms which needed a foreskin to protect their penis from abrasion because they hadn't invented underwear. He made our soul perfect, our body is only as good as our evolutionary environment.
Since compared with our ancestors, underwear is more common and so are STDs (not just HIV- most sex viruses like HPV and syphilis aren't stopped by a condom), it makes less sense to have a foreskin and more sense to get circumcised. I honestly don't think God cares whether or not we're circumcised. It's for our benefit, not God's. It makes us cleaner and less disease prone.
So when God says that we are created in the perfect form, you're saying we're not actually in the best form, we need changes, and he was just lying??
What exactly is this "metaphor" supposed to mean then, if we were intended to have bits of our bodies cut off to make us in a better form?
Hmm?
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God didn't say that, God doesn't have a mouth. It's in the Quran and the Quran says about itself that sections of it are symbolic, 37.
Of course our physical bodies are imperfect in many ways. Without deodorant our sweat turns into bad odour and we stink. We can get lice in our hair. If we don't brush our teeth we get toothache and have to pull them out. Lots of people have jaws too small so they need to get their wisdom teeth pulled out. Our bodies are very vulnerable to a wide range of diseases that we need vaccinations to avoid. Circumcision also protects us from some diseases and makes it easier to keep the penis clean. You know in some situations you can't wash every day, like if you're a soldier in a war, or if you are a refugee fleeing a war, you might have to go for weeks without access to water you can wash with. It's much better to not have to worry about mucus from your foreskin.
When we die our bodies really, really die. That's it for them. They don't continue. Death is final for our physical bodies. Only the soul survives with God's mercy.
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God didn't say that, God doesn't have a mouth.
Um, last time I checked, God wrote the Quran, so if God wrote something in the Quran, it was indeed himself saying that. The Quran is God's mouth. I thought I was debating a Muslim, not a kaffir. My mistake...
It's in the Quran and the Quran says about itself that sections of it are symbolic, 37.
Wow, you really need to re-read 37, if that's the interpretation you derived from it.
37 He is the One who sent down to you the book, from which there are definite signs; they are the essence of the book; and others, which are multiple-meaning. As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it. But none knows their meaning except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say, "We acknowledge it, all is from our Lord." None will remember except the people of intellect.
OK, first off let's look at what "multiple meaning" actually means It means that is has 2+ meanings, while having both simultaneously. You are claiming that God made a statement that DIDN'T MEAN WHAT HE CLEARLY SAID AT ALL, but meant something else entirely. Actually you are saying that when God made a clear statement, it actually meant the complete OPPOSITE of what he just said. That's not "multiple meaning", that's just a plain LIE.
You are in fact saying that God is lying.
Secondly, you are exactly this person being spoken about in the verse where it says "As for those who have disease in their hearts, eager to cause confusion and eager to derive their interpretation, they will follow what is multiple-meaning from it."
You are the one with disease in your heart, but I already knew that since you claim that God didn't even write the Quran.
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Peace,
I am getting married in a month to a beautiful, open-minded Sunni girl. She is moderate and reasonable. We have talked about religion and I stress to her all the time how the Quran has answers to everything. We talk about Solaa and I say the same thing. Everyone has their own personal understanding and that we should endeavor to do everything with a good heart. HOWEVER, I recently came across the barbaric practice of circumcision and can not let my son go through something like that when the time comes. Some solutions I was thinking of were to tell her parents/her/my parents that the boy can decide on his own when he reaches the 18 age. I am in the U.S. so it's not like they can force the issue. Did anyone else come across a similar situation?There was a similar question on another fourm, in this instance a man who had learned he was soon to father a son asked whether anyone could convince him not to go ahead with a circumcision as he was torn on the issue but was more in favour of doing it then he was against it, largely for cosmetic reasons. The post below which is copy and pasted from the responses offered, persuaded him not to do it (among others). Maybe if you could relate some of this information to them, it might persuade them against it. Though circumcision is ingrained in American culture, it seems more and more people are steering away from the practice.
Don't do it. I would rather lose a finger than my foreskin.
First up it's not yours. It's his. Bodily integrity is a human right. Imposing cosmetic surgery on non-consenting infants is not.
Second, foreskins are awesome. Let me count the ways
• Tens of thousands of nerve endings. That's an astounding amount of sensory bandwidth.
• Those nerve endings include a whole lot of sensitive stretch receptors - as the foreskin moves, it reports a whole lot of positional detail. That's a whole extra kind of sensation we're talking about.
• Frictionless gliding mechanism. The foreskin isn't just a "piece of skin", it's a toroidal linear bearing, providing completely frictionless movement, far superior to any amount of lubrication. Okay, break to explain this one
Take a stretchy satin shirt, with the sleeves too long, about a hand-length past your fingertips. Put it on, turn the end of the sleeve in on itself, and glue the cuff to your watch strap. You now have a functional model of an intact penis. Your hand is the glans, the sleeve is the foreskin, your arm is the shaft.
Now grasp your sleeve, and extend your arm to look at your watch. The fabric rolls over your hand - it doesn't slide. There's no friction against your hand at all, because nothing slides over it.Or take a pinch of eyelid/elbow/scrotum skin, and rub between thumb and finger. Again, no friction on your finger pads whatsoever, despite a firm grip. This is what we experience. We don't need lube to masturbate, because we have something far better built-in.
• Stimulation from friction sucks next to frictionless massaging. Intact guys have access to both - and while friction can be an interesting place to visit, none of us would ever want to live there.
• The frenulum is known by some as the 'male clitoris', and is exquisitely sensitive. Even if it's preserved (it usually isn't), one of the things it's most sensitive to is stretching as the foreskin retracts. No foreskin, no stretching, you've just lost a vast amount of sexual pleasure.
• The foreskin protects and moisturises the surface of the glans (which is an internal organ, and does not have skin), keeping it sensitive and supple. Men undergoing foreskin restoration report that the difference in sensation is akin to the difference between wearing a condom and going bareback.
• Because we don't rely on friction for stimulation, condoms don't suck nearly as much for us as they do for circumcised guys.
There are no good reasons to circumcise.
• Hygiene is not an issue. Five seconds in the shower, just pull back, wash, release, done. Washing your ears is harder work than that, but you don't go cutting those off.
• I daresay that there are lots of guys in the world that find intact female genitalia 'weird', too - but if someone suggested you should cut up your daughter to suit them, you'd punch them in the face. Think about that.
• In some places, the majority of girls are circumcised, too. If you went to live there, would you have your daughter circumcised so she would be "normal"?
Even if you wanted to, there's no good reason to do it early.
• It's his body, it ought to be his competent adult choice. You wouldn't give him a tattoo - or even let him get one himself - until he was an adult, so why this?
• Done as an adult (assuming he wanted to), there's vastly more margin for error, plus he could actually choose exactly how he wanted it done.
• In infancy, the foreskin is fused to the glans, like your nails are fused to the nail bed - and needs to be forcibly stripped free. Why deliberately choose the extra-traumatic option?
• Infants cannot be given sufficient pain relief, either during the operation or during the healing process. There's research to indicate that the trauma has permanent effects on neural development, including permanently lowering their pain tolerance. Why would you do that to your own kid?
• A diaper environment is a terrible place for a wound to heal. Just think about that.
And that's not even covering stuff that can go wrong. Google for 'botched circumcision' sometime, along with 'necrotizing fasciitis'.
In short there's lots of inherent downsides, lots of risks, no benefits, and no all-fired hurry to do it as a child.
Just leave it alone. Your kid does not need bits cut off him.source
Also, here is an excruciating documentary detailing the worst case scenario for a botched circumcision. It is called Dr. Money and the boy with no penis
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Um, last time I checked, God wrote the Quran, so if God wrote something in the Quran, it was indeed himself saying that. The Quran is God's mouth.
That's double meaning again. There is the "Quran" which is the completeness of God's wisdom for the universe, and there are the verses narrated by Muhammad, messenger of God, which other human beings wrote down. They aren't the same thing. God doesn't have a mouth, but if he did, the universe would not be large enough to encapsulate it, and no book can encapsulate fullness of the wisdom of God.
It's really silly to be a fundamentalist and try to interpret the Quran to mean black is white and white is black. Do you completely abstain from cutting your hair and nails, as well as refusing to wash or use deodorant? Because that's the nonsense conclusion from your line of thinking.
And stop trying to be a sectarian thug. If you want to call people who disagree with you kaffir you should go live with bin laden in a cave in the hindu kush.
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That's double meaning again. There is the "Quran" which is the completeness of God's wisdom for the universe, and there are the verses narrated by Muhammad, messenger of God, which other human beings wrote down.
So you think the Quran is corrupted now? Hmm, I seem to recall a verse in the Quran which says that Allah would protect it from any falsehood entering it, before or after.
Again you call God a liar, show your disbelief in the verses of the Quran, and prove that you are a kaffir.
They aren't the same thing. God doesn't have a mouth, but if he did, the universe would not be large enough to encapsulate it, and no book can encapsulate fullness of the wisdom of God.
I didn't mean a physical mouth with muscles, I meant a mouth in the context that He is using it as His method for speaking to humans and jinn. Really I overestimated your intelligence because I thought you would be able to understand simple concepts like that. Sorry, it won't happen again.
It's really silly to be a fundamentalist and try to interpret the Quran to mean black is white and white is black.
It's not fundamentalist when GOD HIMSELF says that the majority of the quran consists of straight-forward verses, and some of the other ones are MULTIPLE MEANING. This, by definition implies that there are 2 or more meanings simultaneously! That DOESN'T mean that when the quran says one thing, it actually means the complete opposite of it. You are in fact saying that NOTHING in the Quran can be taken to mean ANYTHING, because it all could mean completely the opposite of what God actually said.
Do you completely abstain from cutting your hair and nails, as well as refusing to wash or use deodorant? Because that's the nonsense conclusion from your line of thinking.
Hardly. Nails and hair are meant to grow. When you cut your foreskin, it doesn't grow back. Growing is a nature part of regeneration, to keep your hair and nails healthy. If foreskin grew back it might not be a problem to cut it, because you are not "altering God's creation" by cutting something that grows back, because it will come right back. Furthermore I don't see a problem if you want to let your hair grow, and nails will end up breaking themselves with normal work. Deodorant is a laughable issue, not hygienic but superficial.
And stop trying to be a sectarian thug. If you want to call people who disagree with you kaffir you should go live with bin laden in a cave in the hindu kush.
Saying that God wrote the Quran, and that God will protect the Quran is not "sectarian". Saying that God said in 954 that God created human in the perfect form is not sectarian either, that's QUOTING THE QURAN, word for word. I'm not even sectarian, I'm a Quranist.
I don't call people who disagree with me a kaffir, I call people who say that God didn't write the Quran, God won't protect the Quran, and nothing the Quran said can be taken as truth is a kaffir, because that is truly the definition of kaffir; one who rejects. You reject all these things, and in reality YOU are the one being spoken of at the end of 37.
Please don't claim that you are muslim, because you already know that you are no longer muslim, you have fallen into disbelief. You reject that anything in the Quran is true, you reject that God wrote it, and you reject that God protected it. I really have no shame in calling you a kaffir, for there is no better word to describe you, except maybe munafiq.
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The ahadeeth are not verses.
and the verses are qaul-e-rasool!
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat69_files/69_40.gif
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The ahadeeth are not verses.
I wasn't talking about hadiths.
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So you think the Quran is corrupted now? Hmm, I seem to recall a verse in the Quran which says that Allah would protect it from any falsehood entering it, before or after.
That's circular reasoning, and you are a sectarian fundamentalist. It's okay, you can live in a cave with your extremist buddies, but don't try and intimidate people here with your thuggish language.
I am more concerned with the reality of what things represent rather than with scriptural dogma. I'm not criticising the Quran at all, I do believe in represents truth and God's guidance, however it is mostly symbolism, and you can't take something saying human beings are prefect literally, because obviously we're not. We get sick and die early deaths quite often. Circumcision prevents many of these.
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That's circular reasoning, and you are a sectarian fundamentalist. It's okay, you can live in a cave with your extremist buddies, but don't try and intimidate people here with your thuggish language.
I am more concerned with the reality of what things represent rather than with scriptural dogma. I'm not criticising the Quran at all, I do believe in represents truth and God's guidance, however it is mostly symbolism, and you can't take something saying human beings are prefect literally, because obviously we're not. We get sick and die early deaths quite often. Circumcision prevents many of these.
We're supposed to get sick and die early deaths, the Quran even says that. So yes, we are perfect.
No, you don't need to cut off part of your dick to be healthy.
It's rather rich that you call me a "sectarian" thug for simply pointing out the fact that you don't even believe in the divinity of the Quran, making you a kaffir (rejector) by definition. You're the one that says you should chop off pieces of flesh from unwilling humans, as you strap them down to restraining board with straps.
Sounds like you're the only thug here!
Furthermore you claim that the Quran can't really mean anything, because none of it makes any sense. When God says humans were perfect, it means the exact opposite. The Quran says it's a "book of guidance", but how can it guide of if none of it can even be accepted as truth, because every single sentence could actually mean the exact opposite?
You're truly lost, but that's not my problem.
Believing in the Quran does not make me "sectarian", it makes me Muslim... And that's nothing to be ashamed of. ;D
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I wasn't talking about hadiths.
Then what were you talking about? ??? Could you kindly clarify? You were referring to the Qur'an and to "other verses", so I assumed you were referring to ahadeeth
There is the "Quran" which is the completeness of God's wisdom for the universe, and there are the verses narrated by Muhammad, messenger of God, which other human beings wrote down.
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Meaning the entirety of the wisdom of God for human beings is much more vast than the verses of the book we call the Quran. It's the difference between the Quran as a spiritual concept and the material book which, however enlightened it maybe, is limited by its physical nature. No book can encompass the entirety of God's wisdom for human beings.
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It's rather rich that you call me a "sectarian" thug for simply pointing out the fact that you don't even believe in the divinity of the Quran, making you a kaffir (rejector) by definition.
Believing in the Quran does not make me "sectarian", it makes me Muslim...
Pitty you ignore the Quran then. God does not favour the hypocrites.
494 And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!"
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Pitty you ignore the Quran then. God does not favour the hypocrites.
494 And do not say to those who greet you with peace "You are not a believer!"
I wouldn't say that calling someone a "sectarian thug" is "greeting them with peace". I wouldn't say that chopping off a piece of a child's penis is coming at them with peace either.
And I would NEVER call somebody who believes the Quran isn't divine a believer. Nobody in their right might would. Furthermore you say that EVEN IF the Quran was written by God, none of it could actually be understood to mean anything. If one thing says one thing, it might actually mean the exact opposite of what was said. Blue might mean green. Up might mean down.
Yes, you believe that the Quran was sent to us to provide confusion, instead of guidance.. Sounds a lot like the Christian rejectors who say that the Quran WAS an inspiration, but an inspiration from the devil himself....