what do you say about this ?
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And the wisdom that was given to the prophet (pbuh) was the wisdom to use the Qu'ran to mediate over disputes and answer life's questions...
And this is why we are told in many verses to use him as an example because he always relied on the Qu'ran and the Qu'ran only to give advice. When the people asked the prophet (pbuh) things, He was delivered a verse from the allmighty, was he not? And please tell me what happened when he tried to placate people without a direct revelation from God addressing their questions.
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Dear Ayisha
But the Islamic based governments and lawmakers would have and some still do implement sharia law and follow the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH which the PM's are totally against. Why would you then obey these people/institutions if they are lost for over 1400 years because they are followers of Hadith and Sunnah?
If you on the other hand are applying this to secular and non islamic states, then you are saying that Allah SWT has given us the Quran and Islam but has asked us to follow the non islamic route! The whole ayat then becomes contradictory and hypocritical by telling us to follow the right way in Allah SWT and the Prophet PBUH, but then follow those (non islamic governments and lawmakers) who are totally against Allah SWT and Prophet PBUH. Does this make any sense?
Dear Shadowpuppet
No one is disputing the authority lying with Allah SWT and the Prophet PBUH. The ayat in question specifically asks believers to obey Allah, and obey the Prophet PBUH and obey those in authority.
We know Who is being referred to when Allah SWT is mentioned and we know who is being referred to when the Prophet PBUH is mentioned. What I am asking is who is being referred to when 'those in authority' is mentioned.
Peace
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Dear Ayisha
But the Islamic based governments and lawmakers would have and some still do implement sharia law and follow the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH which the PM's are totally against. Why would you then obey these people/institutions if they are lost for over 1400 years because they are followers of Hadith and Sunnah?
If you on the other hand are applying this to secular and non islamic states, then you are saying that Allah SWT has given us the Quran and Islam but has asked us to follow the non islamic route! The whole ayat then becomes contradictory and hypocritical by telling us to follow the right way in Allah SWT and the Prophet PBUH, but then follow those (non islamic governments and lawmakers) who are totally against Allah SWT and Prophet PBUH. Does this make any sense?
Dear Shadowpuppet
No one is disputing the authority lying with Allah SWT and the Prophet PBUH. The ayat in question specifically asks believers to obey Allah, and obey the Prophet PBUH and obey those in authority.
We know Who is being referred to when Allah SWT is mentioned and we know who is being referred to when the Prophet PBUH is mentioned. What I am asking is who is being referred to when 'those in authority' is mentioned.
Peace
Those in authority who do not ask you to follow things which the Qu'ran forbids you from following. For example Is it against the Qu'ran to obey traffic laws/laws that govern driving? No, you must obey the authorities and follow these laws.
This is a very difficult question however and this is just an answer the above is just an answer that came to mind as of right now, I will have to give it some more thought, it is an intelligent question which cannot be answered immediately and in a simple way.
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Dear Ayisha
But the Islamic based governments and lawmakers would have and some still do implement sharia law and follow the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH which the PM's are totally against. Why would you then obey these people/institutions if they are lost for over 1400 years because they are followers of Hadith and Sunnah?
If you on the other hand are applying this to secular and non islamic states, then you are saying that Allah SWT has given us the Quran and Islam but has asked us to follow the non islamic route! The whole ayat then becomes contradictory and hypocritical by telling us to follow the right way in Allah SWT and the Prophet PBUH, but then follow those (non islamic governments and lawmakers) who are totally against Allah SWT and Prophet PBUH. Does this make any sense?
Salam Zulu
It says obey Allah so thats paramount of course. Now you say the 'Islamic based govts and lawmakers' implementing sharia law which PMs are against BUT I live in Egypt and although sharia Law is a bit hit and miss here, as in not 'quite' sharia Law, the Egyptian Law and Authorities ARE based on ISLAMIC LAW. Are you saying I shouldnt obey the traffic laws here or the theft laws here because they are 'based on sharia' slightly??ANYONE has to obey the laws of the country they LIVE in. Now I dont know but maybe in a fully sharia run country (of which there are NONE) it would be acceptable to kill your daughter for not being a virgin, but if you live in UK this is NOT acceptable and you would be punished by the law of UK, not of the law you may believe in but dont LIVE in the country of.
I dont know where you live but you HAVE NO CHOICE but to OBEY the laws of the country or you will be punished BY those authorities. How is THAT not Islamic? They are 'authorities charged over you'. If you dont AGREE with the laws of no murder no rape no theft then you MOVE but as far as I can see there are no countries that have LAWS that are NOT in line with Islam. There are certainly no LAWS in the UK authorities that say ' you MUST have sex before marriage, you MUST steal, lie, cheat you neighbour and you MUST murder 3 people a week', so saying that LAWS of a country are not Islamic is rather silly.
I am NOT for sharia Law for the pure reason it is NOT based on the rock solid Quran and is based on a very UNSTABLE set of possibly fabricated hadith, we only have to look at a few totally ridiculous fatwa to see that. AND because I dont think LAW should have things like 'you have to wear a full burka' because that is taking away the CHOICE and is against 'there is no compulsion in religion'. Sharia Law IMHO is AGAINST Islam. It goes against everything Allah says.
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OT. ignore
The Quran, if you read it, think about it, reflect on its verses as a WHOLE as you should, is a book of GUIDELINES that God has set for mankind. In these GUIDELINES there is 'if you do A you will get to B, if you do C you will not get to B unless you repent and go back to doing A. BUT you can also do DEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUV and repent and go back to A to get to B.
What i am trying to say is there is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error. God is full of MERCY and LOVES US and KNOWS our faults better than we do. IMHO Quran guidelines are NOT STRICT in any way and there is heaps of room for our different ways and views, we are all different people and God made us that way. as long as we do A we get to B. When we start doing A+1 we have about buggered it and need to get back to A ALONE.
In the last few weeks I have been on this forum I have learnt a great deal, thank you ALL for that group especially Transformer brickwall Having seen the twisting of Quran verses, taking out of context, half verses and acrobats of hadithists I KNOW I am totally on the right path with Quran Alone and am even seeing Quran in a new SHINING light more than even before and more and more verse are becoming very clear. However, I am totally APPAULED that people who claim to follow ISLAM as given by ALLAH can twist His verses saying they mean something completely different to what they ACTUALLY say (Yes even in the Holy Arabic Language that was the only Language God spoke ) and come up with things like Hadith and sunnah of a MAN are what COMPLETE the complete Book. I pray these poeple will wipe the DUNG from their blind eyes and one day SEE again what Allah really said, and I PRAY they will make use of the God given faculties of BRAIN and make it THINK about what they read without the DUNG from words of MAN getting in the way. Satan clearly has done a great job so far.
The way Allah put together His words has made me more IN AWE of Him, if that was possible. They are put together in such a way that some people WILL follow a different meaning, this is done intentionally by Allah as can be seen from so many of His great Words and hence there will be many who follow a different path as they just wont GET IT and will go off in another direction thinking they are 'following the messenger' because they look elsewhere in HOW to follow the messenger. They cannot SEE its all there IN QURAN.
end of rant
peace
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Now for my rant and rave.
Fortunately for me, coming onto Free-Minds I have seen the light. At first I thought that the PM way was the 'correct' way and was about to abandon the way I had been taught from childhood, the way I studied and inspected Islam myself when I reached my teens and have been doing so ever since which I compared to other world Faiths and studied them in the process as comparative religion studies and the way Islam is practiced by over one billion Muslims worldwide.
The PM way to me is to abandon prayer, abandon saum, abandon zakat, abandon hajj and then abandon everything about the Islamic way of life which has been ongoing in it's current form for over 1400 years. There is absolutely no consensus, no unity in anything apart from slating the Prophet PBUH, the companions, the believers, the scholars, the men of knowledge and then the masses. The majority of the PM's worldwide do not even have a grasp of the Arabic language but they want to teach Arabic to the world and interperate the Quran. The PM way is 'each man for himself by any means necessary'. After abandoning everything, what else is there left?
The irony is that the masses around the world hold the Quran in the same if not more reverance as do the PM's and have studied the Quran deeper and understand the Quran deeper from word to word, memory to memory, but they also accept the teachings and judgements of the Prophet PBUH as instructed by the Quran. The Prophet PBUH was chosen by Allah SWT to deliver the Message for all mankind until the Day of Judgement. Not anybody can take on this duty or be chosen for this duty. Allah SWT who is the All Knowing, All Wise, Best of Judges knew who to choose in His infinate Wisdom. I have said it before and will say it again and again, if Allah SWT wanted every Tom, Dick and Harry to interperate the Quran as they wish, then the Quran would have been revealed in one go, placed on a rock on neutral ground where everyone can grab a copy and off they go.
I pray hard to be kept on the straight path and have done so all my life, and for me the straight path is exactly the way I was taught. The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH.
Peace
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Now for my rant and rave.
Fortunately for me, coming onto Free-Minds I have seen the light. At first I thought that the PM way was the 'correct' way and was about to abandon the way I had been taught from childhood, the way I studied and inspected Islam myself when I reached my teens and have been doing so ever since which I compared to other world Faiths and studied them in the process as comparative religion studies and the way Islam is practiced by over one billion Muslims worldwide.
The PM way to me is to abandon prayer, abandon saum, abandon zakat, abandon hajj and then abandon everything about the Islamic way of life which has been ongoing in it's current form for over 1400 years. There is absolutely no consensus, no unity in anything apart from slating the Prophet PBUH, the companions, the believers, the scholars, the men of knowledge and then the masses. The majority of the PM's worldwide do not even have a grasp of the Arabic language but they want to teach Arabic to the world and interperate the Quran. The PM way is 'each man for himself by any means necessary'. After abandoning everything, what else is there left?
The irony is that the masses around the world hold the Quran in the same if not more reverance as do the PM's and have studied the Quran deeper and understand the Quran deeper from word to word, memory to memory, but they also accept the teachings and judgements of the Prophet PBUH as instructed by the Quran. The Prophet PBUH was chosen by Allah SWT to deliver the Message for all mankind until the Day of Judgement. Not anybody can take on this duty or be chosen for this duty. Allah SWT who is the All Knowing, All Wise, Best of Judges knew who to choose in His infinate Wisdom. I have said it before and will say it again and again, if Allah SWT wanted every Tom, Dick and Harry to interperate the Quran as they wish, then the Quran would have been revealed in one go, placed on a rock on neutral ground where everyone can grab a copy and off they go.
I pray hard to be kept on the straight path and have done so all my life, and for me the straight path is exactly the way I was taught. The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH.
Peace
Are you familiar with the hadith which says not to try to be like anyone except he who spends righteously, and he who God has blessed with wisdom of the Qu'ran it to others? Why would such a hadith be in place if only the prophet and the scholars are allowed to teach the Qu'ran and interpret it and not any Tom, Dick & Harry?
Allah?s Apostle said, ?Do not wish to be like anyone, except in two cases (1) A man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it righteously. (2) A man whom Allah has given wisdom (knowledge of the Quran and the Hadith) and he acts according to it and teaches it to others.?
Notice how the author adds the Qu'ran (which I agree with) and hadith on his own in the brackets. I believe that this was his own addition, and the prophet meant the Qu'ran only but that is just my opinion.
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if Allah SWT wanted every Tom, Dick and Harry to interperate the Quran as they wish, then the Quran would have been revealed in one go, placed on a rock on neutral ground where everyone can grab a copy and off they go.
I pray hard to be kept on the straight path and have done so all my life, and for me the straight path is exactly the way I was taught. The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH.
Were they not Tom, Dick and Harry who taught you this?
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Are you familiar with the hadith which says not to try to be like anyone except he who spends righteously, and he who God has blessed with wisdom of the Qu'ran it to others? Why would such a hadith be in place if only the prophet and the scholars are allowed to teach the Qu'ran and interpret it and not any Tom, Dick & Harry?
Allah?s Apostle said, ?Do not wish to be like anyone, except in two cases (1) A man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it righteously. (2) A man whom Allah has given wisdom (knowledge of the Quran and the Hadith) and he acts according to it and teaches it to others.?
Notice how the author adds the Qu'ran (which I agree with) and hadith on his own in the brackets. I believe that this was his own addition, and the prophet meant the Qu'ran only but that is just my opinion.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the prophet said I am just a warner did he not? Even he himself did not offer any interpretations but simply gave the commands which were revealed to him when people asked him questions. And those who were wise studied the answer for themselves and took heed, and those who aren't did not. (Like we have seen on this forum) Once again please correct me if I'm wrong.
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well not just any Tom, Dick & Harry right Tom, Dick & Harry Hadith studies Ph. D. so who are we to question them. Even though the Qu'ran says not to accept anything you can't verify on your own.
I think this is a good example of the "flowery discourse" we are told to be aware of. Like the other person who kept saying the truth is unavoidable when I showed him the verse that said "Everything (which is pertinent to your salvation) is explained in this book." And he kept avoiding it himself while telling me at the same time the truth is unavoidable...
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Salaam zulu,
Each to their own. If you find peace and become a peaceful person by practicing ahlussunnah wal jama'ah, then I guess, do it. I have no problem in anyone who has different religious beliefs than I do, as long as they're peaceful. You can be a Christian, A Jew, a Sunni, a Shi'a, a Hindu, whatever you may be, and I will respect you as long as you perform righteous deeds for the sake of God, and do not harm/hurt others in your way.
Personally, I do not 'abandon' zakat, salat, hajj, etc, but I have different understanding of what they are. Instead of paying 2.5% zakat every year, I do it whenever I earn my income and however much I can afford to spend. Same goes with salat and hajj. Just because I have different interpretation from the majority, it does not mean I abandon them altogether. I hope you can see the difference.
Do whatever your heart tells you to do. My way can be wrong, and so can anyone else's. What matters is that we practice what we truly believe, and not what others believe just because they say so, and that we dedicate our actions to God alone. May God lead all of us to the straight Path .
Salaam.
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salam Zulu, cool rant peace
You seem to be under the misconception that 'PM's' are another sect group all following the same thing, like sunni and other sects. this is not the case. Take your mind out of 'the box' mode for a bit.
I do not reject prayer, fasting, hajj or anything else you mention and I pay zakat whenever I can, regularly as Quran says, = I follow Quran and what is in it, nor do I think khalifa is a 'messenger', ok you didnt say that but it seems to be what hadithist think, because they cant get out of the 'follow a leader and be in a box' mode.
I have never slated the prophet and I have never seen that from any other person on here apart from certain hadithists who claim he said things that a prophet of God wouldnt say, IMHO. Again this is a problem for the 'box' mentality because you think rejecting the hadith and picking out those that clearly contradict each other and Quran means slating the messenger, it doesn't at all, it is slating those people that attributed to the prophet all these contradictions! You slate him more by believing he said them, IMHO!
The prophet was a chosen man, chosen by Allah to give us this message of Quran and thats ALL he was to do, what YOU and ME do with that message is up to US as individuals and if YOU chose to look elsewhere in how to follow what the prophet taught that is your problem OR your gain as none of us will know till later, I prefer to stick to the textbook he was teaching FROM, because it is clear and detailed as it SAYS it is.
I DO follow the messenger IMO in the message he was giving. Allah said nothing should be added to HIS Words, which is what hadith (words of muhammed) does do. It gives a different meaning altogether and that is where the proplem lies in todays Islam, NOT by people like me who choose to look ONLY at Gods words because when I do that only I am responsible for the errors in MY interpretation of the message between Allah-Quran_me. By following 'scholars OPINIONS and not MY opinions derived from MY research (which WILL include reading and listening TO those scholars) I am IGNORING what Allah tells ME to use of my thoughts, reflections and God given brain. By following something that MUSLIMS, men and women, human beings, TELL me THIS IS ISLAM as you and 'the majority' do then I am NOT following what God TELLS me to follow I am following what God tells (insert name) to follow and they have used THEIR brain to arrive at that decision.
Does that make any sense?
What YOU follow is
Allah-Quran-'messenger'-Bukhari-scholars of various numbers and opinions-mosque imam opinion-family (forefathers)-other muslims-YOUWhat I follow is
Allah-Quran-ME -
Wasn't that obvious?
No, It was .
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I think you've got the verse numbers in the above quotation wrong. I gave you verses 3531,32, but you've translated verses 3532,33 instead, putting the translation of verse 3532 for 3531, and 3533 for 3532!
I'm not blind, stop trying to avoid the truth. The verses that I gave you are the ones that you pointed out and the subject was the book , in the verse 33 there is no book.
Anyways, you seem to have been pretty confused. I recommend that you take some time off and try to meditate a little, then come back fresh and relaxed. GOD'S business is a very serious one. Just remember we are all responsible before GOD(SWT). Try not sell what belongs to GOD for a cheap price. Remember, the life of this world is nothing but an illusion, 3185, then sooner than latter we will all be standing before Him to answer.
I think you should accept your ignorance of Quran and don't claim that you follow it as Hypocrises people . And by the way as I see you know just the numbers .
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So the prophet (pbuh) was a human being, was he not? The only time we are allowed to obey his commands is when it is the Qu'ran that he is delivering...
the verse is not about the prophet .
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Each to their own. If you find peace and become a peaceful person by practicing ahlussunnah wal jama'ah, then I guess, do it. I have no problem in anyone who has different religious beliefs than I do, as long as they're peaceful. You can be a Christian, A Jew, a Sunni, a Shi'a, a Hindu, whatever you may be, and I will respect you as long as you perform righteous deeds for the sake of God, and do not harm/hurt others in your way.
Personally, I do not 'abandon' zakat, salat, hajj, etc, but I have different understanding of what they are. Instead of paying 2.5% zakat every year, I do it whenever I earn my income and however much I can afford to spend. Same goes with salat and hajj. Just because I have different interpretation from the majority, it does not mean I abandon them altogether. I hope you can see the difference.
Do whatever your heart tells you to do. My way can be wrong, and so can anyone else's. What matters is that we practice what we truly believe, and not what others believe just because they say so, and that we dedicate our actions to God alone. May God lead all of us to the straight Path .
Well said. peace