what do you say about this ?

savage_carrot

Hell no, I have had jaw surgery less painful than "debate" with Th1... Let aq have the second match and it's curtains.

abdalquran

Sure, i dont mind. Keep the topic very tight and simple.

Ayisha, the mods can delete anyone who posts there.

savage_carrot

Awesome. Let's pick a topic from Th1's rants on the forum. Any suggestions? aq and th1 can agree on a choice of a topic from the list.

Yes, we can delete anyone else posting in the thread and we can run a parallel thread for informal debate/comments.

Ayisha

Sure, i dont mind. Keep the topic very tight and simple.

Ayisha, the mods can delete anyone who posts there.

ok, so anything I have to say I will write in Word so I have got it out, you know I cant keep my gob shut when he starts &nbsp

I think Thereformer should name the topic of debate though yay

Thereformer1

267-71 is for what you are doing.

These are about the strain of Isreal, these are not about Sallat which an obligation not like a cow . You don't even understand this so how you'll understand the rest . are you comparing asking about sallat is like asking about cow ?

And (remember) when M?s? (Moses) said to his people "Verily, All?h commands you that you slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you make fun of us?" He said, "I take All?h?s Refuge from being among Al-J?hil?n (the ignorant or the foolish)."
They said, "Call upon your Lord for us that He may make plain to us what it is!" He said, "He says, ?Verily, it is a cow neither too old nor too young, but (it is) between the two conditions?, so do what you are commanded."
They said, "Call upon your Lord for us to make plain to us its colour." He said, "He says, ?It is a yellow cow, bright in its colour, pleasing to the beholders.? "
They said, "Call upon your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily, to us all cows are alike. And surely, if All?h wills, we will be guided."
He said, "He says, ?It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.? " They said, "Now you have brought the truth." So they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.

Are you kidding ? are this my questions ? well, I'm not an ignorance like you who wants to prove his false situation by any way. But let's see your verses one by one .

for prayer 22,

This is the Book (the Qur??n), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaq?n .

This is not about Sallat . so you didn't answer, you just throw a verse talks about something else.

243,

And perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t and bow down (or submit yourselves with obedience to All?h) along with Ar-Raki??n.

The question was how ? and how many Raka'at . Zakat, how ? all my money ? how much ?

so you didn't answer .

245,

And seek help in patience and As-Sal?t (the prayer) and truly it is extremely heavy and hard except for Al-Kh?shi??n .

How ? and say what exactely ? ...you didn't answer the questions .

283,

And (remember) when We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, (saying) Worship none but All?h (Alone) and be dutiful and good to parents, and to kindred, and to orphans and Al-Mas?k?n (the poor), and speak good to people , and perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t. Then you slid back, except a few of you, while you are backsliders. (Tafsir Al-Qurtub?).

The same questions above , and the verse is not any answer of any question of mines , so you don't even understand the verses .

How many prayers ? and how many times ? and how ?

2153,

O you who believe! Seek help in patience and As-Sal?t (the prayer). Truly! All?h is with As-S?bir?n (the patient).

where is the answer of my question ? I said what to say in prayers ? this is absolutely not about that . Seek help in patience >>>>>and >>>>>>>> the prayer . where is the answer ?

2177,

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to All?h, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in All?h, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Mas?k?n (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t ), and gives the Zak?t, and who fulfil their covenant when they make it, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaq?n (the pious - See V.22).

where is the answer ? how many prayers ? how to perform it ? how much of Zakat ? the time of Zakat ?

2238,

Guard strictly As-Salaw?t (the prayers) especially the middle Sal?t . And stand before All?h with obedience [and do not speak to others during the Sal?t (prayers).

you didn't answer my question , what God mans by middle prayer ? and how to perform sallat ? how many rakka't ? how many sajaddatte? what to say in every rakka'at ?

2277,

Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

how ? no answers here.

443,

O you who believe! Approach not As-Sal?t (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know of what you utter, nor when you are in a state of Jan?ba , except when travelling on the road , till you wash your whole body. And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands.Truly, All?h is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.

This is about the things that you shoudn't be when performing sallat .And for the ill and traveler that they can pray .

did any things there shows how ? how many ? what to say ? No , so you didn't answer .

477, 4101-103, 4142, 4162, 56, 512, 555, 558, 591, 5106, 672, 692, 6162, 717, 83, 835, 95, 918, 954, 971, 9103, 1087, 1187, 11114, 1322, 1431, 1437, 1440, 1778, 17110, 1931, 1955, 1958-59, 2014, 20132, 2173, 2235, 2241, 2278, 232, 2437, 2441, 2456, 2458, 273, 2945, 3031, 314, 3117, 3215, 3333, 3518, 3529, 4238, 5813, 629, 6210, 7023, 7034, 7320, 985, 1071-7.

I know every verse in Quran , so no one of them is answering my questions , so you didn't answer my questions, so I will not answer your questions .

You don't even understand a verse , what a joke .

abdalquran

Ayisha, yeah, i know, its hard to keep shtum when this guy's mouthing off

I suggest 'abrogation in the quran'

Thereformer1

For example

http//free-minds.org/hajj

I've read the article before and it was really a hillarious joke, the verses even not in their context . what a joke .

In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (2227-2, gathering ???????????????? to do what ?

savage_carrot

Th1, you've been challenged to a formal debate with abdalquran.

Will you debate "abrogation in the quran" formally with him?

abdalquran

I've read the article before and it was really a hillarious joke, the verses even not in their context . what a joke .

In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (2227-2, gathering ???????????????? to do what ?

NOT to walk around a huge rock saying 'oh god, i am ready to obey'. THAT would be pointless.

Thereformer1

Th1, you've been challenged to a formal debate with abdalquran.

Will you debate "abrogation in the quran" formally with him?

hahahah, I've explained to him this subject and I did beat him before in it and he ran away a whole week, bringing this question "how many verses of the abrogates " ? and he always asked this question, hahaha .

I'll not waste my time in this subject because his knowledge of it is too pooooooooooooooooooooooorr. And he will ask one question and I'll not ask any question because I know the subject very well .

Plus I'm going to challenge the best in this Forum , so bring him . You and the members here are just a dummies, let's see the maker of these dummies .

savage_carrot

Awesome, so given your enthusiasm, we are to conclude that all systems are go.

I can create a new topic in the quran sec (would u guys prefer general?) and make it a sticky with the rules of the formal debate which till now are no other members, Rule 2 and er, logic which goes without saying.

abdalquran

Awesome. Don't worry, Th1. I'll be 'running away' in no time.

savage_carrot

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600480.0

Please start the debate, I can't wait.

Ayisha

These are about the strain of Isreal, these are not about Sallat which an obligation not like a cow . You don't even understand this so how you'll understand the rest . are you comparing asking about sallat is like asking about cow ?

And (remember) when M?s? (Moses) said to his people "Verily, All?h commands you that you slaughter a cow." They said, "Do you make fun of us?" He said, "I take All?h?s Refuge from being among Al-J?hil?n (the ignorant or the foolish)."
They said, "Call upon your Lord for us that He may make plain to us what it is!" He said, "He says, ?Verily, it is a cow neither too old nor too young, but (it is) between the two conditions?, so do what you are commanded."
They said, "Call upon your Lord for us to make plain to us its colour." He said, "He says, ?It is a yellow cow, bright in its colour, pleasing to the beholders.? "
They said, "Call upon your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily, to us all cows are alike. And surely, if All?h wills, we will be guided."
He said, "He says, ?It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.? " They said, "Now you have brought the truth." So they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.
the MEANING and WISDOM of this obviously went right over your head.
This is the Book (the Qur??n), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaq?n .

This is not about Sallat . so you didn't answer, you just throw a verse talks about something else.
yes sorry it was crossed off in my notepad and 243 should have been first. My apologies

And perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t and bow down (or submit yourselves with obedience to All?h) along with Ar-Raki??n.

The question was how ? and how many Raka'at . Zakat, how ? all my money ? how much ?

so you didn't answer .
yes I did, but you have no wisdom to see the answer. You are told bow down, you ask how many?, you do as they did with Moses in 267-71

And seek help in patience and As-Sal?t (the prayer) and truly it is extremely heavy and hard except for Al-Kh?shi??n .

How ? and say what exactely ? ...you didn't answer the questions .
Yes I did. you didnt get it.

And (remember) when We took a covenant from the Children of Israel, (saying) Worship none but All?h (Alone) and be dutiful and good to parents, and to kindred, and to orphans and Al-Mas?k?n (the poor), and speak good to people , and perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t. Then you slid back, except a few of you, while you are backsliders. (Tafsir Al-Qurtub?).

The same questions above , and the verse is not any answer of any question of mines , so you don't even understand the verses .
Does it mention salat in the verse? YES. It also says that they slid back, as you have. It tells you to worship none but Allah, dutiful to parents and kindred, orphans and the poor and speak good to the people and perform salat and give zakat. HOW MANY RAKA is OBVIOULSY NOT IMPORTANT but the other things mentioned ARE.

How many prayers ? and how many times ? and how ?
you keep asking how, does someone have to tell you how to breath too?

O you who believe! Seek help in patience and As-Sal?t (the prayer). Truly! All?h is with As-S?bir?n (the patient).

where is the answer of my question ? I said what to say in prayers ? this is absolutely not about that . Seek help in patience >>>>>and >>>>>>>> the prayer . where is the answer ?
Alhamdulillah Allah is with ME! What to say in prayers, look for the verse that tells you what to recite, it is in there. ;D try 2945, 3529, 7320. In those verses is wudu, bowing, protrating, standing, reciting Quran, call to prayer, not to speak too loud or too low but in between, (you take that as some loud and some quiet ;D) everything is in those verses and I suggest you try looking without the blinkers in your mind of trying to find something WRONG in them so you can fight me. There is nothing you can fight with me over in these verses and if you use your brain and a bit of wisdom you will see thats all you need to know is in there. Anything that you have ADDED is NOT part of Islam.

It is not Al-Birr (piety, righteousness, and each and every act of obedience to All?h, etc.) that you turn your faces towards east and (or) west (in prayers); but Al-Birr is (the quality of) the one who believes in All?h, the Last Day, the Angels, the Book, the Prophets and gives his wealth, in spite of love for it, to the kinsfolk, to the orphans, and to Al-Mas?k?n (the poor), and to the wayfarer, and to those who ask, and to set slaves free, performs As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t ), and gives the Zak?t, and who fulfil their covenant when they make it, and who are patient in extreme poverty and ailment (disease) and at the time of fighting (during the battles). Such are the people of the truth and they are Al-Muttaq?n (the pious - See V.22).

where is the answer ? how many prayers ? how to perform it ? how much of Zakat ? the time of Zakat ?
ok I had it. Forget all the verses, the most important thing is how many and how much right? Nothing in the verse strikes you as advice on WHO YOU ARE TO BE? Do you not notice that it says in thos verse it doesnt MATTER that you turn your face to east or west but YOU would say that wouldnt be a valid prayer if I didnt right?

Guard strictly (five obligatory) As-Salaw?t (the prayers) especially the middle Sal?t . And stand before All?h with obedience .

you didn't answer my question , what God mans by middle prayer ? and how to perform sallat ? how many rakka't ? how many sajaddatte? what to say in every rakka'at ?
the middle prayer is the one in the middle

Do you need details of every small step when mummy sends you to the shop? ??? You OBVIOUSLY have no mind to USE in thinking for yourself.

Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and give Zak?t they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

how ? no answers here.
thats right, it doesn't say HOW does it. Maybe HOW is not as important as YOU think it is. The IMPORTANT DETAILS that GOD has asked are IN THERE if you only had eyes to SEE, sadly you dont.

O you who believe! Approach not As-Sal?t (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know of what you utter, nor when you are in a state of Jan?ba , except when travelling on the road , till you wash your whole body. And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women and you find no water, perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands.Truly, All?h is Ever Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.

This is about the things that you shoudn't be when performing sallat .And for the ill and traveler that they can pray .

did any things there shows how ? how many ? what to say ? No , so you didn't answer .
All these verses are telling you about the salat ALLAH wants you to do and WHY. The only important thing for you is 'how do I bow and how many times' rotfl

I know every verse in Quran , so no one of them is answering my questions , so you didn't answer my questions, so I will not answer your questions .
Oh stop stropping and being childish. I asked that question long before youasked these, we ALL know you are avoiding it and WHY you are avoiding it.

The answer is that it doesnt matter how you bow and how many times and if you read the verses you MIGHT see what I mean. These are verses from ALLAH in his FULLY DETAILED BOOK, so any DETAILS that YOU consider NOT there are NOT RELEVANT TO ALLAH and INVENTED BY SOMEONE ELSE.

You don't even understand a verse , what a joke .

The only joke here is you and we have all seen that, DAILY.

NOW GO ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION

Thereformer1

the MEANING and WISDOM of this obviously went right over your head.

whatever yeah

yes sorry it was crossed off in my notepad and 243 should have been first. My apologies

You must be sorry . Because ignorance is your life .

yes I did, but you have no wisdom to see the answer. You are told bow down, you ask how many?, you do as they did with Moses in 267-71

No, the cow wasn't an obligation and wasn't a way of connecting with God . So you didn't answer .

Yes I did. you didnt get it.

yeah whatever

Does it mention salat in the verse? YES. It also says that they slid back, as you have. It tells you to worship none but Allah, dutiful to parents and kindred, orphans and the poor and speak good to the people and perform salat and give zakat. HOW MANY RAKA is OBVIOULSY NOT IMPORTANT but the other things mentioned ARE.

Yes , Sallat mentioned , how ? and how many ? sorry not mentioned . You know what I can bring verses about how but you'll not find them, stuck with your ignorance . It is not abvious and it is important how ? until you know why ? you can back up your claims .

you keep asking how, does someone have to tell you how to breath too?

The same question for you that everything in Quran, proof it that there is how to breath ?

Alhamdulillah Allah is with ME! What to say in prayers, look for the verse that tells you what to recite, it is in there. ;D try 2945, 3529, 7320. In those verses is wudu, bowing, protrating, standing, reciting Quran, call to prayer, not to speak too loud or too low but in between, (you take that as some loud and some quiet ;D) everything is in those verses and I suggest you try looking without the blinkers in your mind of trying to find something WRONG in them so you can fight me. There is nothing you can fight with me over in these verses and if you use your brain and a bit of wisdom you will see thats all you need to know is in there. Anything that you have ADDED is NOT part of Islam.

Yes, But there is no how ? and how many ? God is with us all even the non-believers, so cut this thing of. About fighting yes, I'm fighting with your ignorance .

ok I had it. Forget all the verses, the most important thing is how many and how much right? Nothing in the verse strikes you as advice on WHO YOU ARE TO BE? Do you not notice that it says in thos verse it doesnt MATTER that you turn your face to east or west but YOU would say that wouldnt be a valid prayer if I didnt right?

This is about something else ( the matter that you turn your face to east .....).

the middle prayer is the one in the middle &nbsp

Yes, what is the name of this middle prayer ? and how many prayers ?

Do you need details of every small step when mummy sends you to the shop? ??? You OBVIOUSLY have no mind to USE in thinking for yourself.

This is what you said when I said you need an explanation , now this post is for you . You said before that Quran is detailed and it is but how ? you didn't answer .

thats right, it doesn't say HOW does it. Maybe HOW is not as important as YOU think it is. The IMPORTANT DETAILS that GOD has asked are IN THERE if you only had eyes to SEE, sadly you dont.

You admitted , done . You don't have eyes to speak about someone does have eyes .

When God said pray, he taught the prophet how ? how many ?

All these verses are telling you about the salat ALLAH wants you to do and WHY. The only important thing for you is 'how do I bow and how many times' rotfl

You don't know how much these things are imporant in Sallat . Don't ask me about this , the answer is in Hadith .

Oh stop stropping and being childish. I asked that question long before youasked these, we ALL know you are avoiding it and WHY you are avoiding it.

You have avoided before my questions who they are in the threads, dd I avoid yours , some yes and some no ( a lot I've answered ) .
But avoiding not because no answers , but because you didn't answer mine .

The answer is that it doesnt matter how you bow and how many times and if you read the verses you MIGHT see what I mean.

I know very well the verses, I don't need you to show me, but you need me to show you .

These are verses from ALLAH in his FULLY DETAILED BOOK, so any DETAILS that YOU consider NOT there are NOT RELEVANT TO ALLAH and INVENTED BY SOMEONE ELSE.

Well, the same questions , how it is detailed and what God means by detailed ?

The only joke here is you and we have all seen that, DAILY.

You ddidn't answer any questio, the verses are just about sallat only and Zakat only, ,no mentioning of how and how much and how many, you don't understand the verses, you don't put verses in their subject , the words are twisted , so you're he only joke I see .

NOW GO ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION

Answer mines , I answer yours .

Leyna

Ayisha, yeah, i know, its hard to keep shtum

What does that mean? Is it the same as "stumm" in German, i.e. silent etc.?

Ayisha

whatever yeah

You must be sorry . Because ignorance is your life .
whatever

No, the cow wasn't an obligation and wasn't a way of connecting with God . So you didn't answer .
yes, went so high over your head its gone into orbit

yeah whatever

Yes , Sallat mentioned , how ? and how many ? sorry not mentioned . You know what I can bring verses about how but you'll not find them, stuck with your ignorance . It is not abvious and it is important how ? until you know why ? you can back up your claims .
i have yet to see back up one claim and here you make another boastful claim you cant back up. Satan must have lodged firmly up your nose hypno

The same question for you that everything in Quran, proof it that there is how to breath ?
no its in the appendix, Book 8 chapter 11 number 1A2RS3

Yes, But there is no how ? and how many ? God is with us all even the non-believers, so cut this thing of. About fighting yes, I'm fighting with your ignorance .
no you fight with yours and very badly.

This is about something else ( the matter that you turn your face to east .....).
but do you do that and is it important to your salat?

Yes, what is the name of this middle prayer ? and how many prayers ?
Fred, 365

This is what you said when I said you need an explanation , now this post is for you . You said before that Quran is detailed and it is but how ? you didn't answer .
It is detailed in WHAT ALLAH SAYS WE NEED TO KNOW.

You admitted , done .
admitted nothing you think I admitted.
The details of what Allah WANTS US TO KNOW are IN QURAN and on THAT it is FULLY DETAILED. How to paint a picture is not in there so its not important for our salvation. How to perform the Military twostep is not in there as its not important for our salvation, HOW to pray IS IN THERE with ALL the DETAILS that ARE important for our salvation.

You don't have eyes to speak about someone does have eyes .
right thats why I can answer ALL your questions but you cant answer ANY and dont understand the answers anyone gives anyway. CIRCLE.

When God said pray, he taught the prophet how ? how many ?
Did he come and kneal beside the prophet and say 'you go like this'? NO. he TAUGHT him from Quran, its IN Quran in ALL the verses I gave. Fortunately the prophet had MUCH more WISDOM than you have.

Give me hadith which say how many and for which prayer please.

You don't know how much these things are imporant in Sallat . Don't ask me about this , the answer is in Hadith .
I do know whats important in salat, the salat from Allah, I dont care how important these details are in your sect of sunni islam that use added details.

You have avoided before my questions who they are in the threads, dd I avoid yours , some yes and some no ( a lot I've answered ) .
But avoiding not because no answers , but because you didn't answer mine .
I have answered each question you have asked of me and its there in black and white for all to see. It is not my problem if you dont accept or understand those answers. You on the other hand have avoided answering questions all over the board and will continue to do so.

I know very well the verses, I don't need you to show me, but you need me to show you .
but you refuse to show me the verses you claim show how many and you refuse to answer any questions. One can only assume from that display that your claims are false and you have no knowledge of things you claim to have more knowledge than anyone here on.

Well, the same questions , how it is detailed and what God means by detailed ?
Allah says its fully detailed, I dont question Him on how. Detailed means detailed look it up in a dictionary.

You ddidn't answer any questio, the verses are just about sallat only and Zakat only, ,no mentioning of how and how much and how many, you don't understand the verses, you don't put verses in their subject , the words are twisted , so you're he only joke I see .

I didnt post ANY verses, I posted the numbers of the verses, so any twisting and taking out of subject are by YOU when you looked up the NUMBERS I gave you.

Answer mines , I answer yours .

you did not answer mine yet

Ayisha

What does that mean? Is it the same as "stumm" in German, i.e. silent etc.?

yes leyna, I think it may come from German or maybe Yiddish.

kgwithnob

Dear savage_carrot and All,

It seems to me that Thereformer 1 is on a MISSION. I think his mission is to create confusion and chaos on the community. So far, he has been relatively successful on his mission.

I suggest that putting a restraining order on him through the moderators of the forum is good for the community as a whole. We all know why he and a few colleagues of him are here for. They very well know what they are doing. Their aim is to prevent the growth of the community of Monotheists, i.e., the believers in GOD ALONE, QUR?AAN ALONE, The true MUSLIMS.

Thereformer1 guy routinely starts new topics with the same exact theme, 1st to run away from answering the multitude of questions that are being put to him, leaving them unanswered, 2nd and like I said before, to create chaos and confusion.

So I strongly suggest enforcing the rules of the forum and do not allow someone like him to get away so easy.

Peace,
Khalil

savage_carrot

Peace Khalil,

I agree, I've mentioned this previously as well. His relative success so far however has been to litter the forum with nonsensical posts and to get me to start posting again. He now has some time to rethink, but somehow I don't believe he'll be using the time wisely cough.