Why has been Western Civilization successful?
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I agree with Badar's interpretaton of 103/3 (though not the other verses).
I think the succinct answer to Badar's question is that Western Civilisation has , to some extent, followed values which are positive according to Quran. The development of western civilisation in terms of philosophy and governance itself, is enough proof of this.
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I agree with Badar's interpretaton of 103/3 (though not the other verses).
I think the succinct answer to Badar's question is that Western Civilisation has , to some extent, followed values which are positive according to Quran. The development of western civilisation in terms of philosophy and governance itself, is enough proof of this.
Thanks and peace. Reasons for not agreeing with 1031,2. Linguistic arguments only, please. A corrected version of whole Sura.
Surah 103 1
Most of the time -
Surah 103 2
- surely, those of you pretending to forget us, most certainly end up in diminution or total loss in the buiness of life.
Surah 103 3
Except those who have safeguarded and secured themselves with deeds free of corruption, full of justice, honesty, and by creating a state of order. So remember to enjoin one another in acts suitable for this, requiring wisdom, justice, reality and facts; as well as to continue to enjoin one another to be patient, and to endure in these attributes.
Peace,
Abdun Nur
Badar
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I think the succinct answer to Badar's question is that Western Civilisation has , to some extent, followed values which are positive according to Quran. The development of western civilisation in terms of philosophy and governance itself, is enough proof of this.
I think so too.
peace
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Badar,
...Singh, I bet he's sikh, no wonder the thick understanding, wherever your getting your sources from, Abdun Nur, I guess, who has his own agenda and motivation behind destroying the linguistic truth of the Quran.
Just another form of hadith, if they can attribute lies to the Prophet, I'll go one further and attribute lies to God, says people like Abdun Nur. If people from the lowlands of Pakistan can uphold every false lie concerning the Prophet, then what's stopping us from attributing lies to the Quran, the word of God?
Vile Muhammadans.
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Thanks and peace. Reasons for not agreeing with 1031,2. Linguistic arguments only, please. A corrected version of whole Sura.
Surah 103 2
- surely, those of you pretending to forget us, most certainly end up in diminution or total loss in the buiness of life.
I take the word 'insan' as man. Not 'those of you pretending to forget us'. The written text isn't my basis, the oral recitation is.
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Like it or not it is several factors. Off the top of my head they are
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separation of church and state (protects the church and the state. Something that I don't see Islam believing any time soon as true.)
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human rights (all are equal and no distinction between Muslim/non-Muslim in the law's eyes.)
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will of God vs word of God (is a natural event caused by God or can we trust that it is occurring because God is trustworthy? Depending on how you view an event will depend on the advancement of science in your culture)
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innumerable smaller issues. Diet, weather, surface resources, evangelism (really it is a Christian concept more than), protestant work ethic, colonial sense of destiny, invention, creation of the stock market and modern finance allowing for the pooling of wealth and new ways of funding big projects.
It is, in my opinion, jaw dropping the number of differences. Not all of them are rooted in religion, probably not most of them. I wish I knew more and how to weigh some of them.
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Diet?!
Are you serious?
Americans have the worst eating habits on the face of the globe.In fact, they use more grain to feed animals for meat than they do for food cereal.
The United States spends more money feeding pigs than do third world countries their own citizens.And what is a "surface resource"?
Is that a nice word for "strip mine"? -
Peace,
Qur?anic principles such as The Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom drafted by Thomas Jefferson, the basis for the Religion Clauses in the US Constitution?s Bill of Rights. Most of those who founded the US were learned, fluent in languages (Jefferson learned Arabic so he can read Qur?an), and thought themselves as being deists/monotheists.
http//religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html
"Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time...
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Why did the "West" become successful?
1.) Conquering the rest of the world, securing its resources and hence subjugating such territories
2.) The West is not morally successful and that is self-evident. Neither is the "East" for that matter although I would say the monks are doing a pretty good job of keeping the peace.
The explosion in success came about as a direct result of the application of the command of THE God, to obey logic/free thinking and hence things that the quran has commanded us to do for a long time naturally follow (2920, a striking example); Similar explosions in success are observed in the early Arabs who contributed quite nicely to the corpus of science in that period.
The way I see it, islam = success. That is to say, there is a set of principles which applied will result in peace, prosperity and progression. If islam is the way of THE God and THE God tells us in his book that "follow islam and you will ASSUREDLY be of the successful" then that means merely that islam = that set of principles; if your modus operandi does not ASSURE success then it never was "islam" even if it has been called that for the last 1300 years. Of course the success of islamic principles is not merely material success and success in islam does not necessarily translate to phenomenal material success.
Yes, there are an innumerable number of factors but the main one, which applies on the scale of the individual and emergently on the global scale is merely that those in the West did not blind themselves to objective reality but rather submit to the creator and accept the reality chosen by the creator for what it was.
Such acceptance entails that one also fearlessly accepts that one can be incorrect in their belief of something, and I don't see why such a thing is difficult to grasp. People will hold so damn fast to the religion of their choice but they will readily admit that they made a mistake here in a trivial maths puzzle. I mean, on the one hand you have your eternal fate in which there is no room for any error and on the other hand you have trivialities, which is more deserving of an open minded analysis?
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Diet?! Are you serious? Americans have the worst eating habits on the face of the globe. In fact, they use more grain to feed animals for meat than they do for food cereal.
The United States spends more money feeding pigs than do third world countries their own citizens.
We are talking about Western Europe to America and not just the modern American diet. However even then I would argue that junk food is better for society than people pretend. Life is hard and sometimes an ice cream or a hamburger or high sugar/high fat treat is emotionally satisfying. Moderation is the key.And what is a "surface resource"?
Is that a nice word for "strip mine"?I think I mean to say access to forests, coal and other building material. For instance oil in the Middle East (and this is an entirely ignorant assumption) oil was not available as a resource because we didn't have the technology to get to it whereas, yes, coal was relatively easy to get in Europe. Strip mine is quite a loaded word, mining does affect the natural environment and there are better and worse ways to do it.
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Why did the "West" become successful?
1.) Conquering the rest of the world, securing its resources and hence subjugating such territories
2.) The West is not morally successful and that is self-evident. Neither is the "East" for that matter although I would say the monks are doing a pretty good job of keeping the peace.
The explosion in success came about as a direct result of the application of the command of THE God, to obey logic/free thinking and hence things that the quran has commanded us to do for a long time naturally follow (2920, a striking example); Similar explosions in success are observed in the early Arabs who contributed quite nicely to the corpus of science in that period.
The way I see it, islam = success. That is to say, there is a set of principles which applied will result in peace, prosperity and progression. If islam is the way of THE God and THE God tells us in his book that "follow islam and you will ASSUREDLY be of the successful" then that means merely that islam = that set of principles; if your modus operandi does not ASSURE success then it never was "islam" even if it has been called that for the last 1300 years. Of course the success of islamic principles is not merely material success and success in islam does not necessarily translate to phenomenal material success.
Yes, there are an innumerable number of factors but the main one, which applies on the scale of the individual and emergently on the global scale is merely that those in the West did not blind themselves to objective reality but rather submit to the creator and accept the reality chosen by the creator for what it was.
Such acceptance entails that one also fearlessly accepts that one can be incorrect in their belief of something, and I don't see why such a thing is difficult to grasp. People will hold so damn fast to the religion of their choice but they will readily admit that they made a mistake here in a trivial maths puzzle. I mean, on the one hand you have your eternal fate in which there is no room for any error and on the other hand you have trivialities, which is more deserving of an open minded analysis?
But with that view, Islam = success, you can never concede you might be wrong. Unless I have misread you you are in essence saying that Islam was practised better in the West. I don't think there is a belief I hold that I do not hold lightly, even my faith in Jesus is doubted daily and I think it and all beliefs should be. I would even suggest that doubt/skepticism is another attribute of Western Civilization that attributed to its success.
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We are talking about Western Europe to America and not just the modern American diet. However even then I would argue that junk food is better for society than people pretend. Life is hard and sometimes an ice cream or a hamburger or high sugar/high fat treat is emotionally satisfying. Moderation is the key.
I think I mean to say access to forests, coal and other building material. For instance oil in the Middle East (and this is an entirely ignorant assumption) oil was not available as a resource because we didn't have the technology to get to it whereas, yes, coal was relatively easy to get in Europe. Strip mine is quite a loaded word, mining does affect the natural environment and there are better and worse ways to do it.You forgot Australia... or are we East again?
Life is hard in the West?
I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer... -
But with that view, Islam = success, you can never concede you might be wrong. Unless I have misread you you are in essence saying that Islam was practised better in the West. I don't think there is a belief I hold that I do not hold lightly, even my faith in Jesus is doubted daily and I think it and all beliefs should be. I would even suggest that doubt/skepticism is another attribute of Western Civilization that attributed to its success.
We are taking about the almighty creator's path, keep that in mind. The creator creates a universe 96 billion lightyears in diameter, with everything working in perfect precision but then you expect that God can't write down a book to guide a bunch of insignificant specks on a small speck out of the whole thing?
"islam" is one of several possible models of this path, all that remains is to test which one is the correct model. Keep in mind there is a difference between "islam" and "Islam", the latter being a post-quranic construct. I am not talking about any kind of religion but rather a mode of thinking/approach to life. A religion such as "Islam" entails things like "worship" for some illogical reason whereas the "islam" in the quran explicitly promotes logical/free thinking and good behaviour patterns that are consistent.
As such, you NEVER will be wrong if you have the correct "islam", if you are obeying the true path of the almighty how can you go wrong? But when you serve other men in "Islam" who themselves are faulty, then there is much room for error.
One thing people must keep in mind is that objective reality (the reality supposedly created by "Allah" is invulnerable to any kind of tests you can throw at it. You will never find a flaw, all observers of reality, if they tell the truth, will see the exact same thing. For example, suppose there are 10 people in a room. They all leave and split in separate ways and you ask each of them, how many people were in the room? The answer will be "10" from every single one of them, there is no room to distort this. You check CCTV footage, there are indeed 10 people in the room. You look at the room with the people in it, from the outside, via an infrared heat camera, you will count ten heat signatures. You analyse the DNA traces on the floor of the room, you will find 10 distinct persons were in that room. You analyse the markings on the walls/floors and eventually yet again, you will count that there were 10 people in the room.
Now if such a simple example as this can be questioned from every single direction concievable then do you think the path of the Almighty cannot? If anything, it is flawless. If you are afraid of people questioning your faith, that implies you have made a massive idiotic emotional and eternal investment into something you have no idea about, irrespective of what that faith is. If I went to buy Enron stock and I said "kill the kafir who doesn't think Enron stock is good" against all reason, then do you think I am a smart one? Even if I have 1300/2000/3000 years of research and a massive amount of people to back me up?
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All civilisations have succeeded at one point or another. Wester civilization has not succeded till very, very recently and we do not know how long that is going to last. It doesn't look very good. Also it would have to be looked at criticlly how it has succeeded, upon a lot of damage to others and upong a lot of suffering ot the pople till very recently in historical terms, and even now its success is restricted to certain countries. And I understand success as the ability to bring prosperity to the people at large and well being. Well being for everybody only came very recently to western civilisation, and even then with a lot of wars all over the place imposd on other civilisations.
It is all according to th glass you look through. At any rate that kind of view of history is like saying we are at the end of the match and we hav won. But if we really are t the end of the match that means that the success of western civilisations has brought about that end of things, which of course is not such a success, or if we are not at the end of things, then still we cannot talk about such a success, success is when it lasts, and that we do not know that it will last more than a century. Again and unfortunately it dosn't look good, we are regressing at gigantic pace and we are accepting regression like sheep. Rather than get bloated about success, it would do us good to be far more self-critical.
Salaam
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Thanks all, for your views. There are many reasons for success of Western civilization. However, the fact is that this civilization for which prototype today is USA. It,s success can not and should not only be considered as having just only the financial well being; although it is a by product of the real success. The real success is in.
- Leadership in knowledge,
- Leadership in social justice. Granted not perfect, by any measures; but still the best in the rest.
Please see my post real pillars of Islam.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600493.0Combined this with 1033
Surah 103 3
Except those, who have safeguarded and secured themselves with deeds free of corruption, full of justice, honesty, and by creating a state of order. So remember, to enjoin one another in acts suitable to requirements of wisdom, justice, reality and facts; as well as to continue to enjoin one another to be patient, and to endure in these attributes.
Be honest without prejudice and see, who is at top.
Additionally, it points out that worship is not the means of success nor required by our Rabb. Otherwise Muslim would have been at top in knowledge and social justice, streaming out of these rituals. But unfortunately reality speaks louder than words. Please wake up, before it is too late.
Peace,
Badar
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However, the fact is that this civilization for which prototype today is USA.
Mh, sorry, but I don't see the USA as the prototype of Western civilization.
The term "Western culture" is used very broadly to refer to a heritage of social norms, ethical values, traditional customs, religious beliefs, political systems, and specific artifacts and technologies. Specifically, Western culture may imply
a Graeco-Roman Classical and Renaissance cultural influence, concerning artistic, philosophic, literary, and legal themes and traditions, the cultural social effects of migration period and the heritages of Celtic, Germanic, Romanic, Slavic and other ethnic groups, as well as a tradition of rationalism in various spheres of life, developed by Hellenistic philosophy, Scholasticism, Humanisms, the Scientific Revolution and Enlightenment, and including, in political thought, widespread rational arguments in favour of free thought, human rights, equality and democratic values averse to irrationality and theocracy.
a Biblical-Christian cultural influence in spiritual thinking, customs and either ethic or moral traditions, around Post-Classical Era.
Western European cultural influences concerning artistic, musical, folkloric, ethic and oral traditions, whose themes have been further developed by Romanticism.The concept of western culture is generally linked to the classical definition of the Western world. In this definition, Western culture is the set of literary, scientific, political, artistic and philosophical principles which set it apart from other civilizations. Much of this set of traditions and knowledge is collected in the Western canon.
The term has come to apply to countries whose history is strongly marked by European immigration or settlement, such as the Americas, and Australasia, and is not restricted to Western Europe. Central Europe is also regarded as an original constituent of Western culture.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture
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We are taking about the almighty creator's path, keep that in mind. The creator creates a universe 96 billion lightyears in diameter, with everything working in perfect precision but then you expect that God can't write down a book to guide a bunch of insignificant specks on a small speck out of the whole thing?
I am talking about your ability to doubt and its essential function in human life. I don't think God needs to doubt.
"islam" is one of several possible models of this path, all that remains is to test which one is the correct model. Keep in mind there is a difference between "islam" and "Islam", the latter being a post-quranic construct. I am not talking about any kind of religion but rather a mode of thinking/approach to life. A religion such as "Islam" entails things like "worship" for some illogical reason whereas the "islam" in the quran explicitly promotes logical/free thinking and good behaviour patterns that are consistent.
What test would you propose or agree to? I am not yet adept to differentiate the two I/i slams I suspect that that is not a general view but your specific view. Your islam seems to be rational thought, if that is what you mean by it then let's call it rational thought because unfortunately it is to easy to confuse two words such as Islam and islam.As such, you NEVER will be wrong if you have the correct "islam", if you are obeying the true path of the almighty how can you go wrong? But when you serve other men in "Islam" who themselves are faulty, then there is much room for error.
I am afraid for the world that there are so many that are confident in this way. Humans are faulty, conceiving of God accurately is impossible and as such we fall into heresies now and then and necessarily and inevitably stray from the path unless God guides us back. As such, doubt and cautious behaviour should rule our temperament and often times when we doubt and check our path we find the right way to go again.One thing people must keep in mind is that objective reality (the reality supposedly created by "Allah" is invulnerable to any kind of tests you can throw at it. You will never find a flaw, all observers of reality, if they tell the truth, will see the exact same thing. For example, suppose there are 10 people in a room. They all leave and split in separate ways and you ask each of them, how many people were in the room? The answer will be "10" from every single one of them, there is no room to distort this. You check CCTV footage, there are indeed 10 people in the room. You look at the room with the people in it, from the outside, via an infrared heat camera, you will count ten heat signatures. You analyse the DNA traces on the floor of the room, you will find 10 distinct persons were in that room. You analyse the markings on the walls/floors and eventually yet again, you will count that there were 10 people in the room.
Unless one person shook the hands of another 11th person and then touched the wall or whatever.... Over confidence has been the downfall of so many in history. Pride comes before the fall.Now if such a simple example as this can be questioned from every single direction concievable then do you think the path of the Almighty cannot? If anything, it is flawless. If you are afraid of people questioning your faith, that implies you have made a massive idiotic emotional and eternal investment into something you have no idea about, irrespective of what that faith is. If I went to buy Enron stock and I said "kill the kafir who doesn't think Enron stock is good" against all reason, then do you think I am a smart one? Even if I have 1300/2000/3000 years of research and a massive amount of people to back me up?
I agree that people should not be afraid to have their faith questioned. I think you are saying that since you have bought Enron stock then you should promote Enron stock? I didn't understand this and what your exact point was. Sorry. -
All civilisations have succeeded at one point or another. Wester civilization has not succeded till very, very recently and we do not know how long that is going to last. It doesn't look very good. Also it would have to be looked at criticlly how it has succeeded, upon a lot of damage to others and upong a lot of suffering ot the pople till very recently in historical terms, and even now its success is restricted to certain countries. And I understand success as the ability to bring prosperity to the people at large and well being. Well being for everybody only came very recently to western civilisation, and even then with a lot of wars all over the place imposd on other civilisations.
It is all according to th glass you look through. At any rate that kind of view of history is like saying we are at the end of the match and we hav won. But if we really are t the end of the match that means that the success of western civilisations has brought about that end of things, which of course is not such a success, or if we are not at the end of things, then still we cannot talk about such a success, success is when it lasts, and that we do not know that it will last more than a century. Again and unfortunately it dosn't look good, we are regressing at gigantic pace and we are accepting regression like sheep. Rather than get bloated about success, it would do us good to be far more self-critical.
Salaam
I think we are at the end of a match but we can still regress. If you read the news today the Dalai Lama declares himself a Marxist. http//www.smh.com.au/world/dalai-lama-leaves-his-marx-on-the-worlds-financial-capital-20100521-w1ux.html
I note this because there are still so, so, so, so many that believe that socialism and utopias are possible to achieve on Earth. Paradise/Heaven are concepts for after this life. If we are right then we all here believe that such paradises only occur and exist because God is in control and not man. Ultimately Jesus was correct in his parable of the good Samaritan, it is up to us as individuals to help each other, to choose to cross the street and pick our fellow man up.
Everyone thinks if only we were all Muslim there would be no more problems, but the history of the caliphates and the intrigue there shows what happens. Or all Christian there would be no more problems, but the history of the Roman Catholic Church and its abuses shows what happens. Everyone thinks if only we had a good king then there would be no more problems but the history of European monarchies shows the awful abuse of that system. Everyone thinks if only we were communist and shared resources equitably there would be no more problems but the 20th century is a history of atheist communism and fascism devastating the world.
So what is left? Democracy, freedom of speech and morality. Popular elections that limit any one person's ruler-ship. Doing the right thing day by day, moment by moment and making a choice to be an individual is the only system that works. The rest are pipe dreams and yes we can regress back to them as it appears we are to me.