I and We
-
Peace Jack
<When we 'communicate' with The God, it goes through a frequency, which to me is Jibreel/The spirit hence 'We'. I drew this from 297 & 26193-94 and as previously mentioned 4251. Even the prophet was incapable of communicating with God 'face to face'.>
But what?s it got to do with our imploring God Alone? The verse 2190 specifically says ?us? and we?re not allowed to implore God along others with Him.
-
When you understand who ALLAH is, you see, feel and hear ALLAH everywhere, the truth of ALLAH is inescapable. ALLAH pervades every blade of grass on every field, every speck of sand on every single beach, every particle of existence, every ray of light - ALLAH is EVERYTHING (one) but not "every thing" (many).
When you read the quran, "we" refers to the (illusorily) divided whole as a unity - "every thing" as "EVERYTHING".
Reality is seamless. Our perception of it is that this is a book, that is a tissue - NO! Rather, everything IS, and that is all.
The We/I in the quran is not a "royal we" actually, nor is it any contradiction but rather, it is carefully used in exactly the right places to make it clear that your ALLAH is ONE, just as reality is ONE.
Communication TO the I is instantaneous, there are no messengers required, this is why every prayer is indeed heard, in the collective mind of God. Communication FROM the I is different and this is why messengers have been sent down - how CAN the entire universe communicate with a bunch of small entities on a planet named Earth?
God is not an abstract conception of some invisible guy in the sky - God is THE force that channels THE energy of reality. There is no dividing this force into subcomponents, this force is I. The energy however is easily divided into subcomponents but these exist in name only (still, names are powerful!), this energy is Us.
-
Salaam OPF,
You said, Quote-"At each moment in time, "We" gets bigger. "We" always submits to ALLAH and it can do nothing else; this is the divine balance. "We" is relative to the observer; your "We" is not my "We" and it will not be until the day when "We" becomes "I"."
My question is how can the thought become the thinker?
You say a day will arrive when 'we' becomes 'I', this would mean the thought the 'we' transforms into the 'I' the thinker, please explain the logic of your statement.
The conceptual problem lies in the assumption most people operate under a formal distinction between observer and observed.
Like OPF, I have slowly come to think in more panentheistic terms (or monistic terms, if you like). My thoughts on this have changed semi-drastically over the past year or so.
When one thinks in terms of existence = Consciousness merely experiencing Itself, it all starts to make sense.
And yes I realize that sounds like new age talk.
I'd recommend The Self-Aware Universe by Amit Goswami.
-
Peace OPF
I believe some Sufis think/believe as you do?.What you say basically is that the whole universe is the body of God?..Am I right? If that?s what you saying when I think deep down I can?t accept it because the ?I? is the Creator of the universe and can not be creator of His own Body.
Are you familiar with Bahaullah?s concept the prophet of Bahai faith? -
Peace Jack
<When we 'communicate' with The God, it goes through a frequency, which to me is Jibreel/The spirit hence 'We'. I drew this from 297 & 26193-94 and as previously mentioned 4251. Even the prophet was incapable of communicating with God 'face to face'.>
But what?s it got to do with our imploring God Alone? The verse 2190 specifically says ?us? and we?re not allowed to implore God along others with Him.
It has everything to do with our imploring 'God alone'. Call it as angels/jibreel bearers of the message sent If you will.
No one is claiming It's okay to implore others etc. We're not imploring others alongside him. It's just how our e-mails goes through--in this instance 'sent back'--the system.
HE responded, but it became WE because others were involved e.g. 1177 where messengers were sent to Lot.When you understand who ALLAH is, you see, feel and hear ALLAH everywhere, the truth of ALLAH is inescapable. ALLAH pervades every blade of grass on every field, every speck of sand on every single beach, every particle of existence, every ray of light - ALLAH is EVERYTHING (one) but not "every thing" (many).
When you read the quran, "we" refers to the (illusorily) divided whole as a unity - "every thing" as "EVERYTHING".
Reality is seamless. Our perception of it is that this is a book, that is a tissue - NO! Rather, everything IS, and that is all.
The We/I in the quran is not a "royal we" actually, nor is it any contradiction but rather, it is carefully used in exactly the right places to make it clear that your ALLAH is ONE, just as reality is ONE.
Communication TO the I is instantaneous, there are no messengers required, this is why every prayer is indeed heard, in the collective mind of God. Communication FROM the I is different and this is why messengers have been sent down - how CAN the entire universe communicate with a bunch of small entities on a planet named Earth?
God is not an abstract conception of some invisible guy in the sky - God is THE force that channels THE energy of reality. There is no dividing this force into subcomponents, this force is I. The energy however is easily divided into subcomponents but these exist in name only (still, names are powerful!), this energy is Us.
Well said.
-
Peace OPF
I believe some Sufis think/believe as you do.What you say basically is that the whole universe is the body of God..Am I right? If thats what you saying when I think deep down I cant accept it because the I is the Creator of the universe and can not be creator of His own Body.
Are you familiar with Bahaullahs concept the prophet of Bahai faith?I realise that this is the true form of reality, the choice to think/believe any other way is illusory. Sure you may believe or disbelieve in THE reality but "at the end of the day" when one "sleeps", one is a puppet of the divine I and nothing more - how true is this, alive or "dead"!
Each human being is crafted & shaped instantaneously in the womb as exactly the right egg meets the right sperm to keep the balance and harmony of nature to within divinely ordained limits; our personalities are mere imprints of our brains.
Those that accept that they are puppets can then see the puppet strings and speak to the puppetmaster (so to speak) but those who never look up/in never see the puppet strings.
I would say that the whole universe is the body of God, the rules of physical reality are the mind of God. Together, they make up the soul of God, THE Self.
Also new age talk is a distraction, that's something I've never understood. There are zillions of sites plastered with pure dribble (evident by the fact that much information is claimed without source) that speak in this vein but they never do guide to the truth.
Which is strange because language itself directs one to understand the truths of reality in the most innate way possible - one driven by instinct/feeling or to put it better, the collective understandings of a hundred million more/less divinely ordained orgasms preceding you, once guided by the hand of God alone but now in the human brain there is an "I" and THE I to contend with.
For instance, when one says "you" - there is only ever one "you" that it is directed at yet there are many "I"s to recieve it (even when there are no humans around to hear, some ONE does hear!). Yet YOU experience words directed at your Self.
Regarding Bahaullah, no I'm not very familiar with that concept, can you explain?
And as for your paradox - "If thats what you saying when I think deep down I cant accept it because the I is the Creator of the universe and can not be creator of His own Body."
The creation of the universe is easy and takes 3 steps
1.) Start from pure nothingness
2.) Think/see, hear/feel, all things around "YOU" in the present moment then sing your own melody perfectly in tune with the divine rhythm (whether you are a particle or a human being)
3.) Make sure there aren't any unawares around at the time (easily done hehe) to declare that since they once didn't exist, you couldn't possibly exist despite the fact that you are the LORD OF POSSIBILITY.When one speaks, one speaks for themselves. When one speaks truth, one speaks for one while one speaks for all.
-
@OPF
Quote<I would say that the whole universe is the body of God, the rules of physical reality are the mind of God. Together, they make up the soul of God, THE Self.>
Based on what you believe/say when God says that He punishes the disbelievers actually He punishes part of His own body?.In that case what happened to the God of Mighty , Wise, Just and Merciful?It looks like He doesn?t care about His own body while He?s asking us to look after ourselves??..What you?re saying is that God is asking/communicating with His own body(us) and then if one part goes wrong He would punish/eliminate that part(sending to hell)?..Now the question is that the God you believe in what?re His Qualities?........Because the god I know/believe in is Most Wise and can fix things before it goes wrong if He wills therefore your belief doesn?t match with Him.
Do you believe in Quran?
Quote< The creation of the universe is easy and takes 3 steps
1.) Start from pure nothingness
2.) Think/see, hear/feel, all things around "YOU" in the present moment then sing your own melody perfectly in tune with the divine rhythm (whether you are a particle or a human being)
3.) Make sure there aren't any unawares around at the time (easily done hehe) to declare that since they once didn't exist, you couldn't possibly exist despite the fact that you are the LORD OF POSSIBILITY.>>You?re talking about the creation/creating after when it?s established Who God is?.You should take me one step back and tell me what was that nothingness that God came out of it and started creating His own body?.??Because the god you?re talking about has a body and should have started creating His own body from some point/nothingness ??..I?m asking this question because once you establish who God is/how came out to existence then we can talk about His body as you believe/perceive.
Regarding Bahaullah I think it?s better to leave it out because discussing his perception make this discussion complicated .I just thought you might know about his view.
peace
-
Quote<<It has everything to do with our imploring 'God alone'. Call it as angels/jibreel bearers of the message sent If you will.
No one is claiming It's okay to implore others etc. We're not imploring others alongside him. It's just how our e-mails goes through--in this instance 'sent back'--the system. >>4251 is talking about how God communicates /contacting with human beings??No where in the Quran God says that the same thing applies to human when he wants to contact Him?.The following verse reminds us the direct communication without any body between
That is when Zachariah implored his Lord "My Lord, grant me such a good child; You are the Hearer of the prayers."
In the above verse Zachariah says that God is the Hearer of the prayer?.As you can see it?s a direct communication with God ?..God can hear us wherever we?re without needing of any kind of agent/i.e. Gabriel takes the prayer to Him?.Be Him Glorified; He?s above that in needing of Gabriel to take the prayer to Him.
Quote<<HE responded, but it became WE because others were involved e.g. 1177 where messengers were sent to Lot.>>
I agree with you, for running the universe God uses His Creatures to do the job for Him but not for His Hearing and Watching. I hope you understand what I?m trying to say.
Here is another verse in that context of 2190Those who incurred the judgment will say, "Our Lord, these are the ones we misled; we misled them only because we ourselves had gone astray. We now devote ourselves totally to You. They were not really worshipping us."
peace
-
@OPF
Quote<I would say that the whole universe is the body of God, the rules of physical reality are the mind of God. Together, they make up the soul of God, THE Self.>
Based on what you believe/say when God says that He punishes the disbelievers actually He punishes part of His own body.In that case what happened to the God of Mighty , Wise, Just and Merciful?It looks like He doesnt care about His own body while Hes asking us to look after ourselves..What youre saying is that God is asking/communicating with His own body(us) and then if one part goes wrong He would punish/eliminate that part(sending to hell)..Now the question is that the God you believe in whatre His Qualities?........Because the god I know/believe in is Most Wise and can fix things before it goes wrong if He wills therefore your belief doesnt match with Him.
Do you believe in Quran?
Youre talking about the creation/creating after when its established Who God is.You should take me one step back and tell me what was that nothingness that God came out of it and started creating His own body.Because the god youre talking about has a body and should have started creating His own body from some point/nothingness ..Im asking this question because once you establish who God is/how came out to existence then we can talk about His body as you believe/perceive.
Regarding Bahaullah I think its better to leave it out because discussing his perception make this discussion complicated .I just thought you might know about his view.
peace
Yes I believe in quran, the quran is what lead me to choose this way of looking at it in the first place.
It is not appropriate to say "nothingness" unless you grasp what that nothingness is. It is pure possibility with the exception that nothing has occured, that's what I mean by nothingness. The way I see it, everything started from this timeless/eternal infinite possibility - before anything else exists, the only thing that "exists" is the fact that it is possible for things to exist (evidence reality).
"God" is the infinite, in the beginning just pure undifferentiated unity of all things, now it has branched off into many threads of intricate complexity. Due to energy conservation, we can only say that there is a single moment, the time of "now". Time itself is an illusion; on the smallest scale it is used to give most likely points for observables and on the largest scales, the passage of time between points is deformed by gravity, keeping the universe constant in producing the picture of Earth. Both small and large scale interactions are mediated by one main culprit - light.
This is all to do with light; imagine a white light source that is not merely visually white but emitting the entire spectrum, this kind of light corresponds to a source of infinite temperature, energy, information. This is the "nothingness" that I am talking about - there is no such thing as "colour" in this oneness and thus this infinity is indistinguishable from total darkness - indeed, pure nothingness is infinite in every way concievable and no concept can be compared to it - it is one and one alone. How did it split into the myriad components we observe? According to big bang theorists, it can be blamed on "quantum fluctuations" but this is merely stating that "God realised that God exists".
As for God most wise, this follows from the undifferentiated source of possibility suddenly choosing paths to delve through. Although God knows "everything", God evidently does not have "everything" in the right order which is why everything exists. God always has a clue but God never knows for certain until God makes things certain - and this God does, each and every moment in time. Yes there are people destined for hell, but on the other hand look at what the God has created - innumerable beautiful things of all kinds, of which a vanishingly small fraction smells iffy and will soon go out of date.
God is free from all wants and desires. To God, a human is "stuff" and a rock is "stuff" except that God has rules for what "stuff" is allowed and not allowed to do. God does however let the stuff do as it pleases, within limits. It is like rolling dice, when you make them cubes you limit their numbers from 1-6 but you still cannot ever predict with 100% certainty what the dice will land on.
The universe is God taking a long hard look in the mirror and seeing the reflection of himself. Of course, He is God on both sides, and this is what makes existence so infinitely powerful. Indeed a mirror is a perfect depiction of the sheer might of God - you must exert energy to change the picture but you can never change the picture on the other side because that is a product of the light work itself - effortless, effectively instantaneous and powerful to an exactly defined measure which allows it to be powerful to an exactly defined measure in the first place.
God is the one thing in between all things, this is why God is untouchable. ALLAH is asleep at home right now but tomorrow, God/ALLAH/ONE will be wide awake and experiencing all that the life that he has created has to offer - all at once (just to let that life that he created experience itself eternally with God). And God does wish to wake up tomorrow just like all of us - all who are awake are awake and all who are dead or asleep are soon to be awake again. Not just us as humans but every particle of existence. One might look at the birds and think they are bored to their skulls but indeed their minds reflect those of the creator and the creator is never bored with flying to and fro between places and pecking away at arbitrary objects, putting them in their pecking order. ALLAH is ONE who lives in the eternal present moment alone.
-
God is the one thing in between all things, this is why God is untouchable. ALLAH is asleep at home right now but tomorrow, God/ALLAH/ONE will be wide awake and experiencing all that the life that he has created has to offer - all at once (just to let that life that he created experience itself eternally with God). And God does wish to wake up tomorrow just like all of us
I don't know what's taking so long but 2255 easily refutes this. Have you evaluated your view regarding this very serious matter?
-
You're right, I had this in mind when I wrote that
3967 - And they have not honored Allah with the honor that is due to Him; and the whole earth shall be in His grip on the day of resurrection and the heavens rolled up in His right hand; glory be to Him, and may He be exalted above what they associate (with Him).
Of course the creator never sleeps, a very bad wording indeed. What I mean to convey is that clearly we are not experiencing the full power of the lord just yet.