one world - one period of abstention
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one world - one period of abstention
- a support of the great effort initiated by brother Ayman to find the right timing of the period of abstinence -
A setback in finding the perfect timing of the period of abstinence seems to be the assumption that there is not one but that there are two different Koranic timing-systems in the world one of the Northern- and one of the Southern Hemisphere.
This would create new forms of uncertainty about the timing of the period of abstention, in a may be more serious way than there are now uncertainties in the present mainstream system, in having arguments about the crescent moon, the -hilal-.In the article -Blind dating versus perfect timing- is proposed that the Northern- and Southern Hemisphere have their own period of abstinence because the summer-solstice in those parts of the world have a different timing - around June 21 and December 21.
This would mean that the community of believers would be divided into two parts and would have two timing-systems which would lead to two different sets of restricted months ?shahr haram- and to two different timings for the hadj-conference.This double timing-system has structural disadvantages
Nowadays many people are living around the equator and there is a lot of traffic across the equator.
There would be uncertainty if one would have to join the fast if one has already fasted during the period of abstinence of the other hemisphere.
Many people would be uncertain about which timing of the abstention to follow, the northern or southern system.
Families, communities and countries would be arbitrarily divided because the equator itself is not sufficient as an indicator for finding the ?shahr ramadan-
Probably the peoples would be led again by the often political motivated decisions of the religious and political leaders about when to abstain ? the northern or southern system.The system of the restricted months would be jeopardized seriously.
During these restricted months aggression as for instance war is utmost restricted according to the Koran.
In a double timing system caused by the acceptance of a northern and southern timing, many neighbouring countries around the equator would have a different timing of the restricted months ? it would be very tempting to a attack a country in its restricted period, the vigilance could be at a lower level then.
In modern times some countries which are thousands miles away from another can have conflicts, there could be a lot of politics involved in agreeing on which of the two timing-systems would be valid when the countries are separated by the equator.There would be a double timing of the hadj-conference which is during the restricted months.
Each hemisphere would have to organise a hadj of its own, because it has to take place within the restricted months.
The rulings of a hadj-conference would probably only be valid for one hemisphere since only the believers of one hemisphere would participate ? this is not appropriate in a globalized world.A double timing-system would lead to too much uncertainty about important Koranic subjects.
The complete and perfect Koran gives the believers guidance in this matter.
The Koran does prescribe one timing of the period of abstinence.
Verse 2185 gives two unambiguous relevant rulings
a during the ?shahr ramadan- the Koran has been sent down.
b the believers who witness the ?shahr ramadan- should abstain it.This leads to a clear conclusion
The period of abstention is linked to the timing of the arrival of the Koran.
The descending of the Koran happened on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know. So the timing of ?shahr ramadan- of the Northern Hemisphere is valid for the whole world.The principle of one timing-system would also solve the issues of the timing of the restricted months and the hadj-conference.
The period of abstention can be seen as a form of remembrance and celebration of the arrival of the light of the Koran.
During the night-time of the day there can be communal meals, Koran-study, family visits and so on. During the daytime the believers can sleep and rest as is needed and possible, the woosta-prayer has to be performed still.The Koran is valid for believers around the world but has in some aspects a restricted frame-work in a cultural, historical and geological-astronomical way.
This does not take away anything from the central general messages of the Koran.salaam,
Truthseeker171 -
Peace Truthseeker171,
1.Nowadays many people are living around the equator and there is a lot of traffic across the equator.
There would be uncertainty if one would have to join the fast if one has already fasted during the period of abstinence of the other hemisphere.
Many people would be uncertain about which timing of the abstention to follow, the northern or southern system.
Families, communities and countries would be arbitrarily divided because the equator itself is not sufficient as an indicator for finding the ?shahr ramadan-
Probably the peoples would be led again by the often political motivated decisions of the religious and political leaders about when to abstain ? the northern or southern system.Fasting at the same time has nothing to do with unity. The god never mentions "unity" as a result or an objective or fasting. Sectarians within the same country or group of countries fast together and yet they are not really united. I do understand that the whole concept of doing some "rituals" together resulting in unity is an idea that is hard to give up.
- The system of the restricted months would be jeopardized seriously.
During these restricted months aggression as for instance war is utmost restricted according to the Koran.
There is no such restriction in the great reading. In fact, it is the opposite if you read 2217.
In a double timing system caused by the acceptance of a northern and southern timing, many neighbouring countries around the equator would have a different timing of the restricted months ? it would be very tempting to a attack a country in its restricted period, the vigilance could be at a lower level then.
In modern times some countries which are thousands miles away from another can have conflicts, there could be a lot of politics involved in agreeing on which of the two timing-systems would be valid when the countries are separated by the equator.But the entire premise is false to begin with. The restriction period is ONLY about hunting wild life. Of course, the wild life cycle is different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres so the restriction period MUST also be different. Simple.
3.There would be a double timing of the hadj-conference which is during the restricted months.
Each hemisphere would have to organise a hadj of its own, because it has to take place within the restricted months.
The rulings of a hadj-conference would probably only be valid for one hemisphere since only the believers of one hemisphere would participate ? this is not appropriate in a globalized world.But "hagg" is essentially about food which is inherently related to seasons and that would be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres.
A double timing-system would lead to too much uncertainty about important Koranic subjects.
The complete and perfect Koran gives the believers guidance in this matter.
The Koran does prescribe one timing of the period of abstinence.
Verse 2185 gives two unambiguous relevant rulings
a during the ?shahr ramadan- the Koran has been sent down.
b the believers who witness the ?shahr ramadan- should abstain it.
This leads to a clear conclusion
The period of abstention is linked to the timing of the arrival of the Koran.
The descending of the Koran happened on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know. So the timing of ?shahr ramadan- of the Northern Hemisphere is valid for the whole world.
The principle of one timing-system would also solve the issues of the timing of the restricted months and the hadj-conference.
The period of abstention can be seen as a form of remembrance and celebration of the arrival of the light of the Koran.
During the night-time of the day there can be communal meals, Koran-study, family visits and so on. During the daytime the believers can sleep and rest as is needed and possible, the woosta-prayer has to be performed still.
The Koran is valid for believers around the world but has in some aspects a restricted frame-work in a cultural, historical and geological-astronomical way.
This does not take away anything from the central general messages of the Koran.Now this argument may have merit. However, in this case, you would have to separate the fasting from the restriction period.
Peace,
Ayman
- The system of the restricted months would be jeopardized seriously.
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Salaam Ayman
Fasting at the same time has nothing to do with unity. The god never mentions "unity" as a result or an objective or fasting. Sectarians within the same country or group of countries fast together and yet they are not really united. I do understand that the whole concept of doing some "rituals" together resulting in unity is an idea that is hard to give up.
The Quran prescribes certain communal-events the group-prayer on days of gathering, 629. The hadj?debate, 2227 and the communal period of abstinence, 2185. These events can be positive for the individual as for the community as well, depending on how they are performed. Not by definition a communal-event will result in more unity but without any communal-events probably some possible steps towards more unity would be absent.
There is no such restriction in the great reading. In fact, it is the opposite if you read 2217.
This is an important matter, the Koran states unambiguously that the restricted months regulate war and other forms of aggression. War and other forms of aggression are restricted during these months, the exception that confirms the general ruling of non-violence is self-defense.
Relevant rulings found in following verses
Verse 936 ? the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month ? the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.
Verse 2217 ? the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the ?masjid el haram- is worse.
Verse 2194 ? during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
Verse 95 ? when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.This proofs that the restricted month is about regulation of warfare.
Probably the period of 4 full moons is a kind of cooling down period, in which negotiations can be done to avoid any further warfare and to train the people to resolve matters in a non-violent way.
In the Koran there is no mentioning of wildlife-protection in connection to the restricted months.But the entire premise is false to begin with. The restriction period is ONLY about hunting wild life. Of course, the wild life cycle is different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres so the restriction period MUST also be different. Simple.
This seems to be a too narrow appreciation of the restricted months ? it is about regulation of warfare not about protecting wildlife.
There seems to be a misunderstanding about verse 51 and 52, in these verses is stated that hunting is prohibited for the people who are in a restricted state.
People who are in a restricted state are the participants of the hadj ? verse 2197 states that there is a number of regulations for the participants sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments are forbidden. Verse 51 states that the people in a restricted state are not allowed to hunt.
Verse 52 mentions the visit to the restricted house, so the context is that of the hadj.There is structural difference between a month that is restricted or an individual being in a restricted state.
The restricted state of an individual is described in verses 2197 and 51 ? this is linked to the participants of the hadj-debate.The hunting-prohibition for the hadj-participants is probably a form of wild-life protection for the surroundings of the restricted house.
Imagine when thousands of visitors would hunt to provide for the food of the participants, the rabbits, the deer and so on would be extinct within a short time ? probably that is why from the animal-world only the cattle and the food from the sea are allowed.But "hagg" is essentially about food which is inherently related to seasons and that would be different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres.
The Islamic hadj-debate rather seems to be a conference to benefit individuals and the communities ? the timing can be in harmony with the seasons of the Northern Hemisphere, so that there can be an abundance of food for the participants, also the people of the Southern Hemisphere are welcome to the hadj.
The Koran is complete and perfect and does not mention a second hadj in the same year at another place.The Koran states in verse 2197 - The hadj (singular, not in the dual plural) is in the known months.
Now this argument may have merit. However, in this case, you would have to separate the fasting from the restriction period.
The restriction period is valid for the whole world in the same time-frame, because in the Koran there is no mentioning of a second set of restricted months, so the period of abstinence is not separated from the restricted months.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 -
But the main argument still remain brother Ayman, depending on your geographical location the Quran has been revealed either the 21st of june or the 21st december? Which is a non-sens?
I do believe Quran came down in 1 night.Peace brother Herbman,
The coming down of the great reading happened to be during the scorching full-moon, wherever that location was. Even within the northern hemisphere, the night rotates and at the exact point in Arabia when the great reading came down, it wasn't even night yet in other parts of the same northern hemisphere. The fasting is not tied to the great reading coming down. It is tied to witnessing of the scorching full-moon regardless of which point in the Northern or Southern hemisphere you are on. The great reading is not even coming down anymore.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Truthseeker171,
The Quran prescribes certain communal-events the group-prayer on days of gathering, 629. The hadj?debate, 2227 and the communal period of abstinence, 2185. These events can be positive for the individual as for the community as well, depending on how they are performed. Not by definition a communal-event will result in more unity but without any communal-events probably some possible steps towards more unity would be absent.
The people of the book understood "hagg" to mean "feast" not "debate". If you read the passages about "hagg", the vast majority is about food.
This is an important matter, the Koran states unambiguously that the restricted months regulate war and other forms of aggression.
No it doesn't. Please provide one verse saying that fighting during the restricted period is forbidden. The ONLY thing unambiguously forbidden while under the restriction is hunting wild life.
War and other forms of aggression are restricted during these months, the exception that confirms the general ruling of non-violence is self-defense.
Relevant rulings found in following verses
Verse 936 ? the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month ? the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.936 wronging one self is about violating the only restriction, which is the hunting restriction.
Fighting is not an exception. Fighting in self-defense is the rule 100% of the time, regardless of the time of the year.
Verse 2217 ? the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the ?masjid el haram- is worse.
Fighting is always bad except in self-defense.
Verse 2194 ? during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
2194 makes it clear that retaliation is allowed all the time. 2194 corrects the wrong perception that waging war in retaliation is not allowed during the restriction period.
Verse 95 ? when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.
This is due to the treaty in 91, which the god and his messenger had nothing to do with. Not fighting during the restricted period is an Arab custom that has nothing to do with the god.
This proofs that the restricted month is about regulation of warfare.
Probably the period of 4 full moons is a kind of cooling down period, in which negotiations can be done to avoid any further warfare and to train the people to resolve matters in a non-violent way.
In the Koran there is no mentioning of wildlife-protection in connection to the restricted months.
This seems to be a too narrow appreciation of the restricted months ? it is about regulation of warfare not about protecting wildlife.51 and 594-96 makes is absolutely clear that hunting is restricted while people are under the restriction (during the restriction period). The passages even provide for a penalty for violating the restriction.
There seems to be a misunderstanding about verse 51 and 52, in these verses is stated that hunting is prohibited for the people who are in a restricted state.
People who are in a restricted state are the participants of the hadj ? verse 2197 states that there is a number of regulations for the participants sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments are forbidden.Nothing states that people who go to the "hagg" are in a "restricted state".
Nothing states that sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments are "forbidden" (haram). Regualtions are just like the regulations in 2189 "piety is not to enter the houses from the back door". This doesn't mean that entering a house from the back door is "forbidden" and those who don't enter the houses from the back door are in a "restricted state" .
Verse 51 states that the people in a restricted state are not allowed to hunt.
Verse 52 mentions the visit to the restricted house, so the context is that of the hadj.Clearly not. The passage talks about the safety of the inviolable house. Does this mean that it is safe only during a certain period and not safe otherwise? Is cooperating on good things and not bad things only during "hagg"?? In fact, "hagg" is not mentioned in the ENTIRE CHAPTER 5.
There is structural difference between a month that is restricted or an individual being in a restricted state.
The restricted state of an individual is described in verses 2197 and 51 ? this is linked to the participants of the hadj-debate.There is nothing in 2197 about a "restricted state" or a "restriction"/"haram" and as we saw there is nothing in the entire chapter 5 about "hagg".
The hunting-prohibition for the hadj-participants is probably a form of wild-life protection for the surroundings of the restricted house.
Imagine when thousands of visitors would hunt to provide for the food of the participants, the rabbits, the deer and so on would be extinct within a short time ? probably that is why from the animal-world only the cattle and the food from the sea are allowed.Please provide a verse saying that the restriction period is only observed by the "hagg" participants. Is this what you understood from 936 "For the "hagg" participants" the count of the full-moons is 12 out of which 4 are restricted?!
The Islamic hadj-debate rather seems to be a conference to benefit individuals and the communities ? the timing can be in harmony with the seasons of the Northern Hemisphere, so that there can be an abundance of food for the participants, also the people of the Southern Hemisphere are welcome to the hadj.
The Koran is complete and perfect and does not mention a second hadj in the same year at another place.The god mentions that the "hagg" is to the inviolable house and tells us that its location is where no partners are setup with the god? Do you think that there is only one place in the world capable of having no partners setup with the god?
The Koran states in verse 2197 - The hadj (singular, not in the dual plural) is in the known months.
The god also tells us about the "biggest" hagg (al-hagg al-akbar). There can only be a "biggest" one if there are others.
Also, the passage talks about "known full-moons (not months)", which is plural. The harvest full-moons are known all over the world, not just in the northern hemisphere.
The restriction period is valid for the whole world in the same time-frame, because in the Koran there is no mentioning of a second set of restricted months, so the period of abstinence is not separated from the restricted months.
As you can see, I clearly disagree, unless you can prove that 936 is specifically talking about the "hagg participants".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Khalil,
It says that fighting is ALLOWED during the restriction period in self defense like any other time.
Peace,
Ayman
2217, They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, "Fighting therein is great , but averting from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and al-Masjid al-Haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater in the sight of Allah . And fitnah is greater than killing." And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam Ayman
The double timing-system would create a serious problem for the millions of people on and around the equator. In those areas there is no special scorching moon, so there it is impossible to discern when to abstain - around June 21 of December 21 or any moment in between.
The Koran has no contradictions and is a message to the whole world - nobody where-ever one lives should be dependent on the authorities or religious leaders for knowing when to abstain.
The -shahr ramadan- is only an objective way of finding the timing of the abstention if one accepts one clear system, the system where these prescriptions of fasting came from, that is Arabia on the Northern Hemisphere
As said before, the Koran has in some matters a perspective from the Middle-East nevertheless its global message.
The Koran was sent down during -shahr ramadan- in the Arabian area, as far as we can know - 2185, the abstention is a form of remembrance of the -lailat el qadr-, the descending of the Koran.
This way of abstention was prescribed for the believers who first received it, the inhabitants of Arabia.
From Arabia this pure message was spread (unfortunately together with human innovations) - nowhere in the Koran a turning point is mentioned from where suddenly the restricted full moons and the abstention should be a half year later.Also on the Northern Hemisphere there can be a problem to discern the timing of the scorching moon if one does not follow the Arabian timing. In many regions there is no objectively recognisable scorching moon.
There can be several red moons in the summer and in regions which are more to the North a reddish full moon is very rare - depending on the dust-particles in the atmosphere.
Another point is - in many areas with a sea-climate the hottest period of the year is August.
So the scorching moon cannot be found by the color of the full moon in most places and the temperature is neither an objective way for measurement.
So to avoid subjective measurements and politics the believers should follow the objective timing as found in the scorching moon after the summer-solstice in Arabia.
All the believers around the world can rely on the fact that the full moon of the scorching heat is on a certain moment in Arabia, this can objectively be witnessed by science and easily be communicated.Verse 2197 - Hadj shall be observed in the specified months. Whoever sets out to observe hadj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout hadj. Whatever good you do, God is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence-.
When our Creator prescribes that the participants of the hadj should avoid certain things, then that has to be accepted as a clear decision and not just as an advice. There are compelling rulings especially for the participants of the hadj, we should not suggest that it is -halal- to have sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments during the hadj.
If the believers should refrain form certain behaviour then this behaviour is not -halal- by definition then this behaviour is -haram- restricted, so the participants of the hadj should be in a restricted state.Of course misconduct and arguments are to be avoided in general by the believers, but for the hadj also the weaker persons who have for instance anger-management problems are summoned to behave in the best manner - misconduct and arguments are explicitly forbidden. When people can not behave or are not well-intended then they should leave the hadj or not come at all.
War is to be avoided in general, the same as misconduct.
In analogy with the hadj that forbids misconduct, the restricted moons are about regulation of warfare.
The reality shows that throughout the year still there can be misconduct and war, also amongst the believers.
The hadj and the restricted months forbid these forms of behaviour in an explicit way. Probably one of the reasons for this is to stimulate awareness of these forms of problematic human behaviour and to find ways to overcome it.Koranic proof for the fact that the restricted moons are about regulation of conflicts - relevant rulings
Verse 936 ? the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month ? the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.
Verse 2217 ? the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the ?masjid el haram- is worse.
Verse 2194 ? during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
Verse 95 ? when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.Verse 91 in which the cancelling of a treaty is mentioned seems to confirm that the restricted moons are about regulating warfare.
Verse 92 states that even when the treaty with the idol-worshippers is cancelled - during the four moons there are no attacks.
Verse 94 states that only the non-agressors of the idol-worshippers are not to be attacked by the army of the believers after the four moons are over.If the restricted moons were about wild-life protection probably there should be verses about regulating the hunt.
There is not a single verse that connects the concept of the restricted moons to a hunting prohibition, minding the structural difference between a restricted moon and a human being in a restricted state, as a participant of the hadj.
The restrictive moon is an objective fact, independent from human behaviour in respecting it or not.
Being in a restricted state is a subjective decision of a human being in participating in the hadj in the right way or not.Verse 52 is mainly about the hadj, several elements of the hadj are mentioned in it
- animals to be offered
- the garlands to mark the animals
- the people who visit the restricted house
This verse states that people, who are not anymore in the restricted state - as described in verse 2197 together with 51, which is connected to the hadj, are allowed to hunt.
Verse 52 mentions that the restricted moon is not to be violated..
Verse 52 mentions when you are in a unrestricted state then you may hunt.
These are different subjects, being in a unrestricted state refers to the believers who participated to the hadj, the restricted moon refers to a time-frame.
If the wording was when the restricted moon is over then you may hunt, then the assumption would be right that the restricted moons are just about regulations of the hunt.
The wording in reality is different.Regarded from a biological perspective a general prohibition of hunting during the same four moons on an entire hemisphere has no special protective value to animals with very young offspring as is suggested in the article Blind dating versus perfect timing.
The animals on and around the equator have no compatibility with this system of having offspring during the four moons after the summer-solstice.
Furthermore many species on the whole hemisphere have in general a timing of being with offspring outside the special moons concerned.
The biological reality is more complicated as probably was assumed.Verse 93 mentions the day of the greater hadj.
This does not suggest that there is another hadj somewhere else on another time.
But if one assumes that there is another Koranic hadj then this would imply that one of them is the greater and the other is the lesser hadj.
This would be very particular.
May be next explanation has some value
Compared to the hadj as a harvest-celebration as it probably was in pre-Koranic times, the Koranic hadj is greater, because the Koranic hadj is a form of worshipping God and remembrance of God and His guidance, according to verses 2196, 2198 and 2203.
This seems to be greater than a harvest-celebration.
Of course food is a major issue during the hadj because large numbers of people have to be fed - probably that is why the offering of cattle is prescribed, verse 2236.
So the food is just a means to an end and not a means to itself.The relevant verses of the Koran seem to give a clear message one world - one period of abstention.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 -
Peace Khalil,
2217, They ask you about the sacred month - about fighting therein. Say, "Fighting therein is great , but averting from the way of Allah and disbelief in Him and al-Masjid al-Haram and the expulsion of its people therefrom are greater in the sight of Allah . And fitnah is greater than killing." And they will continue to fight you until they turn you back from your religion if they are able. And whoever of you reverts from his religion and dies while he is a disbeliever - for those, their deeds have become worthless in this world and the Hereafter, and those are the companions of the Fire, they will abide therein eternally.
Is there anytime where unjustified fiighting/killing is not a great ? What the god is clearly saying is that fighting/killing is allowed in self-defense (just like any other time of the year).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Truthseeker,
I had answered all your points in my previous post. You still can't show that 936 is only addressing those who participate in "hagg" and you still can't show a single verse in Chapter 5 where "hagg" is mentioned. On the other hand, hunting is clearly mentioned as forbidden while the person is restricted. Your lengthy argument is full of appeals to emotions (first it was "unity" and now it is "confusing people" around the equator). People close to the equator are free to follow either southern or northern hemisphere timing just like people in the extreme northern regions can use common sense for "salat" timing since they have no sunset or sunrise during summer. But according to your logic they can't do "salat".
God and remembrance of God and His guidance, according to verses 2196, 2198 and 2203.
This seems to be greater than a harvest-celebration.
Of course food is a major issue during the hadj because large numbers of people have to be fed - probably that is why the offering of cattle is prescribed, verse 2236.
So the food is just a means to an end and not a means to itself.Here is the clear purpose of "hagg".
- To witness benefits
- To remember the god ON WHAT HE PROVIDED FOR THEM FROM LIVESTOCK so they eat from it and feed the poor.
So even "remembering the god" is in the context of thanking him for the livestock that he provided us. Who do you think provided the harvest? People or the god? On the other hand, arguing/debating is a manmade and it would never bring different people together.
As for the greater "hagg", for the people of the book (and all people) this was the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the restricted full-moons) when the harvest was greatest and just before it winds down.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam Ayman
I had answered all your points in my previous post. You still can't show that 936 is only addressing those who participate in "hagg"
Verse 936 informs us that the believers in general should not disrespect the restricted month by fighting in it - the exception is self-defense.
I can not and do not want to show that 936 is only addressing the participants of the hadj, this was not suggested in any way.
The rulings of following verses are valid for the believers during the four moons, not only for the participants of the hadj.Verse 936 ? the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month ? the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.
Verse 2217 ? the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the ?masjid el haram- is worse.
Verse 2194 ? during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
Verse 95 ? when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.
Verse 91 in which the cancelling of a treaty is mentioned seems to confirm that the restricted moons are about regulating warfare.
Verse 92 states that even when the treaty with the idol-worshippers is cancelled - during the four moons there are no attacks.
Verse 94 states that only the non-aggressors of the idol-worshippers are not to be attacked by the army of the believers after the four moons are over.These verses seem to be conclusive Koranic evidence - the restricted moons are about regulation of conflicts.
and you still can't show a single verse in Chapter 5 where "hagg" is mentioned. On the other hand, hunting is clearly mentioned as forbidden while the person is restricted.
Verse 52 relates mainly to the hadj.
- animals to be offered
- the garlands to mark the animals
- the people who visit the restricted house
Is there another Koranic event where one sees those three elements together?
Another Koranic argument is verse 595, this verse has the following ruling if someone infringes the hunting-prohibition, this person has to bring the compensation to the Ka'ba.
Vers 595
- O ye who believe! kill not game while you are in a state of Pilgrimage. And whoso among you kills it intentionally, its compensation is a quadruped like unto that which he has killed, as determined by two just men from among you, the same to be bought as an offering to the Ka'bah; or as an expiation he shall feed a number of poor persons, or fast an equivalent number of days, so that he may taste the penalty of his deed.-
The Ka'ba is related to the hadj according to the Koran.
It is hardly imaginable that someone who is living thousands of miles from the Ka'ba and caught some wild game during the restricted moons, should travel all the way to bring the compensation to the Ka'ba. This is only possible if the believers are near to the Ka'ba and that is during the hadj.Your lengthy argument is full of appeals to emotions (first it was "unity" and now it is "confusing people" around the equator). People close to the equator are free to follow either southern or northern hemisphere timing just like people in the extreme northern regions can use common sense for "salat" timing since they have no sunset or sunrise during summer. But according to your logic they can't do "salat".
The arguments that where put forward were based on verses of the Koran and on basic geology and biology.
The scorching moon on many places of the world is not a reliable objective phenomena - as contrast to areas like Arabia, as far as we can know.
The assumed hunting-prohibition of four moons does not relate to protection of vulnerable animals with offspring in general.The double-timing system of the period of abstinence, the restricted moons and the hadj only leads to a lot of uncertainty and possible political manipulations.
This is contrary to the ruling of the Koran that the religion is not there to bring hardship, verse 2278.
Emotions or supposed logic about salat are not relevant until now, let us keep to the subject.Verse 2198
-You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord. When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate God at the restricted location. You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.-This verse proofs that the hadj not is not only about food, but to remember the guidance of God - the Koran is the guidance from God.
We can be grateful for the provision we get from our Creator, but we can not be guided by it.
Verse 2228 and 2236 state that during the hadj God has to be remembered as the Provider, this is an aspect of the hadj - the broader aim is the remembrance of God as the Giver of guidance this concerns more aspects than the provision of food.The greater hadj seems to have the purpose to remember God and to put the Koran into practice in the best manner - a form of convention towards justice and peace.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 -
Peace ayman,
The god also tells us about the "biggest" hagg (al-hagg al-akbar). There can only be a "biggest" one if there are others.
93 And proclamation from God and His messenger to the people day/time the hajj the greatest?
I believe referred to as greatest is day/time of the hajj not there is a little hajj and bigger hajj; they're equal.
Here is the clear purpose of "hagg".
- To witness benefits
- To remember the god ON WHAT HE PROVIDED FOR THEM FROM LIVESTOCK so they eat from it and feed the poor.
So even "remembering the god" is in the context of thanking him for the livestock that he provided us. Who do you think provided the harvest? People or the god? On the other hand, arguing/debating is a manmade and it would never bring different people together.
As for the greater "hagg", for the people of the book (and all people) this was the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the restricted full-moons) when the harvest was greatest and just before it winds down.
Sounds much like Thanksgiving Day holiday in America.
http//www.thanksgivingactivities.familyhomelifestyle.com/index_files/First-Thanksgiving-Pilgrims.jpg
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sun Dear All,
here is good news for all who dont understand the quranic ramadan, but now have it explained on this website, www.aastana.com, although the website is in urdu we have managed to translate the TRUTH ABOUT SAUM book by dr.Qamar Zaman who's great knowledge of the linguistics and arab grammer has made it possible to understand the Quran a bit more clearly..
p.s it is allowed to disagree and put your points forward on the blog
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Salaam MINI
The topic is the double timing-system.
Anyway the link that you gave was interesting, but the claim that the truth about the period of abstinence is to be found there is not proven.Some remarks and questions
On page 23 is claimed that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into daily life.
- Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
As long this is not done we have to assume that the command of abstaining from food and drink is to be taken in a non-symbolical way.
Verse 2183 ? O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.-
- Is the Jewish fast on -yom kippur- a mistake?
It would be very particular that the believers are only allowed to acquire knowledge and to apply this knowledge during the night and that this process is to be stopped at daytime.
Verse 2187 is clear about the time-frames of the abstention within a day.
If is not defensible to say that the process of acquiring knowledge of God?s decrees and to apply this knowledge, is bound by a time-frame of just a number of days.
Verse 2184 states that the -saum- is only for couple of days.
The believers should study the commands of God and apply them during the whole year, not a few days.The Koran mentions several ways of abstention, for instance
For the believers in general ? from food, drink and intercourse, verse 2187.
For Maryam ? not to speak, verse 1926, verse 1929 and 1930 confirm this.
Verse 1929 ? she pointed to him (without words)
Verse 1930 ? the infant Jesus speaks in stead of Maryam
If you suggest that the only aim of -saum- is to attain righteousness, then your suggest that Maryam had not attained righteousness, before her -saum-.
It is adviced to take care in saying these matters.The -shahr ramadan- lasts actually 3 days, the duration of the full moon not the disruptive 29 or 30 days.
The timing is linked to -lailat el qadr-, the arrival of the Koran, verse 971.
The believers can experience this period of abstinence as a form of remembrance of this important event and can hereby, in realising in a deeper sense the value of the Koran, attain more -taqwa-, respect for the Creator.On page 35 is claimed that -shahr ramadan- means to witness a serious condition.
Verse 2185 states that the Koran was sent down -anzila- during -shahr ramadan-, that is different from being there as a guidance for solving a problem as suggested on page 35.
The Koran is not sent down -anzila- whenever a serious condition occurs.
The Koran was sent down during lailat el qadr - vers 971.
We can not name every night in which a serious problem occurs a -lailat el qadr-.
Serious problems also can occur during daytime.Verses 2285 states further that the ill people and travellers can postpone the moment of fasting to other days that have to be counted.
- How can one suggest that -saum- means only to prevent a form of injustice, when verse 2185 states that the ill people and travellers are allowed to refrain form the -saum-?
This would imply that the ill people and travellers are allowed to join the injustice when it occurs and by choice could try to stop it later on.
This approach is hardly defensible.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 - Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
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Salaam Arista,
As said above an interesting article, but before you truly can claim that this approach makes much more sense you might consider following
On page 23 is claimed that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into daily life.
- Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
As long this is not done we have to assume that the command of abstaining from food and drink is to be taken in a non-symbolical way.
Verse 2183 ? O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.-
- Is the Jewish fast on -yom kippur- a mistake?
It would be very particular that the believers are only allowed to acquire knowledge and to apply this knowledge during the night and that this process is to be stopped at daytime.
Verse 2187 is clear about the time-frames of the abstention within a day.
If is not defensible to say that the process of acquiring knowledge of God?s decrees and to apply this knowledge, is bound by a time-frame of just a number of days.
Verse 2184 states that the -saum- is only for couple of days.
The believers should study the commands of God and apply them during the whole year, not a few days.The Koran mentions several ways of abstention, for instance
For the believers in general ? from food, drink and intercourse, verse 2187.
For Maryam ? not to speak, verse 1926, verse 1929 and 1930 confirm this.
Verse 1929 ? she pointed to him (without words)
Verse 1930 ? the infant Jesus speaks in stead of Maryam
If you suggest that the only aim of -saum- is to attain righteousness, then your suggest that Maryam had not attained righteousness, before her -saum-.
It is adviced to take care in saying these matters.The -shahr ramadan- lasts actually 3 days, the duration of the full moon not the disruptive 29 or 30 days.
The timing is linked to -lailat el qadr-, the arrival of the Koran, verse 971.
The believers can experience this period of abstinence as a form of remembrance of this important event and can hereby, in realising in a deeper sense the value of the Koran, attain more -taqwa-, respect for the Creator.On page 35 is claimed that -shahr ramadan- means to witness a serious condition.
Verse 2185 states that the Koran was sent down -anzila- during -shahr ramadan-, that is different from being there as a guidance for solving a problem as suggested on page 35.
The Koran is not sent down -anzila- whenever a serious condition occurs.
The Koran was sent down during lailat el qadr - vers 971.
We can not name every night in which a serious problem occurs a -lailat el qadr-.
Serious problems also can occur during daytime.Verses 2285 states further that the ill people and travellers can postpone the moment of fasting to other days that have to be counted.
- How can one suggest that -saum- means only to prevent a form of injustice, when verse 2185 states that the ill people and travellers are allowed to refrain form the -saum-?
This would imply that the ill people and travellers are allowed to join the injustice when it occurs and by choice could try to stop it later on.
This approach is hardly defensible.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 - Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
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The -shahr ramadan- lasts actually 3 days, the duration of the full moon not the disruptive 29 or 30 days.
Dear truthseeker171,
Are you saying that the length of the MONTH of RAMADZAN is only 3 days? If so, please explain a bit more how you've come up with that.
Peace,
Khalil
