[5:3] question

AK85

Transliteration Hurrimat AAalaykumu almaytatu waalddamu walahmu alkhinzeeri wama ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi waalmunkhaniqatu waalmawqoothatu waalmutaraddiyatu waalnnateehatu wama akala alssabuAAu illa ma thakkaytum wama thubiha AAala alnnusubi waan tastaqsimoo bial-azlami thalikum fisqun alyawma ya-isa allatheena kafaroo min deenikum fala takhshawhum waikhshawni alyawma akmaltu lakum deenakum waatmamtu AAalaykum niAAmatee waradeetu lakumu al-islama deenan famani idturra fee makhmasatin ghayra mutajanifin li-ithmin fa-inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

Literal Forbidden on you is the animal whose death was caused by suffocation or strangulation, and the blood, and the pig's/swine's flesh/meat, and what was declared/praised the name of whom the sacrifice was made for to other than God with it, and the strangled/choked to death, and the beaten to death/dead due to sickness, and the fallen/destroyed/perished (to death), and the animal whose death was caused by another's horns , and what the beast or bird of prey ate (from), except what you slaughtered, and what was slaughtered on the slaughter places, and that you seek oath with the featherless arrows , that (is) debauchery ; today those who disbelieved despair from your religion, so do not fear them, and fear Me, today I completed for you your religion, and I completed on you My blessing , and I accepted/approved for you the Islam (as) a religion, so who was forced in hunger, not deviating from righteousness/justice to a sin/crime, so that God was/is forgiving, merciful.

Yusuf Ali Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Pickthal Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Arberry Forbidden to you are carrion, blood, the flesh of swine, what has been hallowed to other than God, the beast strangled; the beast beaten down, the beast fallen to death, the beast gored, and that devoured by beasts of prey - excepting that you have sacrificed duly -- as also things sacrificed to idols, and partition by the divining arrows; that is ungodliness. Today the unbelievers have despaired of your religion; therefore fear them not, but fear you Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, and I have completed My blessing upon you, and I have approved Islam for your religion. But whosoever is constrained in emptiness and not inclining purposely to sin -- God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

Shakir Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Khalifa Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead.Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

Hilali/Khan Forbidden to you (for food) are Al-Maytatah (the dead animals - cattle-beast not slaughtered), blood, the flesh of swine, and the meat of that which has been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah, or has been slaughtered for idols, etc., or on which Allahs Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering, and that which has been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by the goring of horns - and that which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal - unless you are able to slaughter it (before its death) and that which is sacrificed (slaughtered) on AnNusub (stone altars). (Forbidden) also is to use arrows seeking luck or decision, (all) that is Fisqun (disobedience of Allah and sin). This day, those who disbelieved have given up all hope of your religion, so fear them not, but fear Me. This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But as for him who is forced by severe hunger, with no inclination to sin (such can eat these above-mentioned meats), then surely, Allah is OftForgiving, Most Merciful.

H/K/Saheeh Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah, and killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you slaughter , and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Malik You are forbidden to eat the meat of any animal that dies by itself (dead body), blood, the flesh of swine (pork) and that on which any name other than Allah's has been invoked; also that which is strangled to death , killed by a violent blow, killed by a headlong fall and of those beaten or gored to death; and that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal unless you are able to slaughter it before its death; also that which is sacrificed on altars or is divided by raffling of arrows. All these are sinful acts. Today the unbelievers have given up all their hope of vanquishing your religion. Have no fear of them, fear Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, completed my favor upon you and approved Al-Islam as a Deen (way of life for you). Anyone who is compelled by hunger to eat what is forbidden, not intending to commit sin, will find Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

QXP Forbidden for you (2173) for dietary consumption are Any Animal that dies of itself. Blood. The flesh of swine. And anything (not just meat) that has been dedicated to any other than Allah (such as an idol, grave or saint). Any Animal that has been strangled to death. Beaten to death. Dies by falling from height. Gored to death by horns. Animal eaten by a wild animal unless you are able to slaughter it while it is still alive. That which is sacrificed on altars (devotional stones or blocks in shrines considered sacred). Also forbidden is dividing the meat through raffling and games of chance (2219), (590). This Day, the rejecting opponents have given up the hope of eradicating your DEEN, System of Life. Clear distinction in matters of the Lawful and the Unlawful draws a tangible line between their ways and your way. Fear them not but fear Me. This Day, I have perfected your DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Islam as the System of Life. (There is no hardship in Islam (2185)). Therefore, if one is forced by hunger to consume the Unlawful, with no intention of exceeding the limits, Allah is indeed Forgiving, Merciful.

Maulana Ali Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal), and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall, and that killed by goring with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten -- except what you slaughter; and that which is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols), and that you seek to divide by arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour to you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. But whoever is compelled by hunger, not including wilfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, merciful.

Free Minds Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Qaribullah You are forbidden (to consume) the dead, blood and the flesh of swine; also flesh dedicated to any other than Allah, the flesh of strangled (animals) and of those beaten, that which is killed by falling, gored to death, mangled by beasts of prey, unless you find it (still alive) and slaughter it; also of animals sacrificed on stones (to idols). (You are forbidden) to seek division by the arrows, that is debauchery. Those who disbelieve have this day despaired of your religion. Do not fear them, but fear Me. This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed My favor to you. I have approved Islam to be your religion. (As for) he who does not intend to commit a sin but is constrained by hunger to eat of what is forbidden, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

George Sale Ye are forbidden to eat that which dieth of it self, and blood, and swine's flesh, and that on which the name of any besides God, hath been invocated; and that which hath been strangled, or killed by a blow, or by a fall, or by the horns of another beast, and that which hath been eaten by a wild beast, except what ye shall kill your selves; and that which hath been sacrificed unto idols. It is likewise unlawful for you to make division by casting lots with arrows. This is an impiety. On this day, wo be unto those who have apostatized from their religion; therefore fear not them, but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, and have completed my mercy upon you; and I have chosen for you Islam, to be your religion. But whosoever shall be driven by necessity through hunger, to eat of what we have forbidden, not designing to sin, surely God will be indulgent and merciful unto him.

JM Rodwell That which dieth of itself, and blood, and swine's flesh, and all that hath been sacrificed under the invocation of any other name than that of God, and the strangled, and the killed by a blow, or by a fall, or by goring, and that which hath been eaten by

Asad FORBIDDEN to you is carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked,' and the animal that has been strangled, or beaten to death, or killed by a fall, or gored to death, or savaged by a beast of prey, save that which you may have slaughtered while it was still alive; and all that has been slaughtered on idolatrous altars.8 And to seek to learn through divination what the future may hold in store for you' this is sinful conduct. Today, those who , are bent on denying the truth have lost all hope of your religion do not, then, hold them in awe, but stand in awe of Me! Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion.'? As for him, however, who is driven by dire necessity" and not by an inclination to sinning - behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

Most of these translations list death from a "violent blow" death from being beaten to death. My question is, what is the status of animals killed with firearms/arrowheads (from my understanding the verse does not mean kill with arrows, it says clearly divide with arrows, referring to a custom of gambling away the parts of the meat that involved arrows)? Especially hunting rifles? Most hunting rifle rounds have enough power to knock an animal off its feet and I am no physicist, but when comparing the energy contained by the traveling bullet launched by these firearms to the energy probably contained by the swing of a club, rock etc. I'd say the energy contained in the bullet is much more.

Can this then be considered killing an animal with a "violent blow" or "beating" it to death, with a very powerful bullet? The only difference between a bullet from a rifle and a club is that a bullet is a projectile being launched from something, shooting a club from something in other words, making it more accurate and powerful, and as such more violent

AK85

Also, it is the "violent" effect of the bullet that causes the animal to die, no different from the violent effect of a violent blow from a club, or any other instrument

Just got a flashback from that movie "Powder." Specifically the part where buddy touches the shot deer, and the hunter and makes him feel its pain. Man that was some powerful stuff

AK85

I've noticed that the Qu'ran does not state the method of slaughtering for animals, but states methods which are not permissible and does say that the food of the people of the book is lawful for you. . Are we then permitted to consult the laws of the Jews in regards to slaughtering animals since it says their food is lawful for us? Except for the restrictions they have which are not accounted for (I'm thinking of meat and dairy) in the Qu'ran?

Of the methods described which are not lawful, may we deduce based on the way that Jews performed their slaughter that the only method remaining for slaughter is to sever the animal's neck/throat?

AK85

I've noticed that the Qu'ran does not state the method of slaughtering for animals, but states methods which are not permissible and does say that the food of the people of the book is lawful for you. . Are we then permitted to consult the laws of the Jews in regards to slaughtering animals since it says their food is lawful for us? Except for the restrictions they have which are not accounted for (I'm thinking of meat and dairy) in the Qu'ran?

Of the methods described which are not lawful, may we deduce based on the way that Jews performed their slaughter that the only method remaining for slaughter is to sever the animal's neck/throat?

You know, I've noticed the hadiths which go further in describing unlawful animals (for consumption) saying that carnivores, birds of prey (those with hooked beaks) are unlawful etc. even though they are not unlawful according to the Qu'ran.

However based on the prohibitions on methods of slaughter stated in can anyone tell me how they would kill a tiger, eagle, ostrich (those things can kill a lion with one kick, forget a human being http//clipmarks.com/clipmark/BD8DE6D4-55CB-4484-8F08-C6C0DD98C094/) monkey (a chimpanzee can kill a full grown man, smaller monkeys will probably simply not sit still and will react violently and increase their own suffering therefore making their slaughter unlawful I'm assuming) bear etc. lawfully?

Well I think when one is starving, and there is no vegetation near by which can sustain oneself, one would be permitted to kill unlawfully if they cannot kill lawfully without risking their own life, at least that is what I gain from Please correct me if I'm wrong with this understanding or state why you disagree.

I think this is God's way of saying ok you may eat them they are not technically illegal, but good luck being able to kill them in a lawful manner

So basically the hadith is wrong for making it unlawful since they are not explicitly stated as unlawful for consumption but I don't think it is easy to kill some of these animals in a lawful way. I have read that the Qu'ran does not mention rabbits as haraam (they are unlawful according to the Old Testamen) but these things can outrun even the fastest predators. I doubt they will sit still and allow their throats to be slit peacefully without reacting and jumping and squirming and cause suffering to themselves thus making their death unlawful. With Rabbits Unless it is a pet of yours and one day you find yourself starving and have to eat your pet rabbit, which will trust you I guess.

AK85

You know, I've noticed the hadiths which go further in describing unlawful animals (for consumption) saying that carnivores, birds of prey (those with hooked beaks) are unlawful etc. even though they are not unlawful according to the Qu'ran.

However based on the prohibitions on methods of slaughter stated in can anyone tell me how they would kill a tiger, eagle, ostrich (those things can kill a lion with one kick, forget a human being http//clipmarks.com/clipmark/BD8DE6D4-55CB-4484-8F08-C6C0DD98C094/) monkey (a chimpanzee can kill a full grown man, smaller monkeys will probably simply not sit still and will react violently and increase their own suffering therefore making their slaughter unlawful I'm assuming) bear etc. lawfully?

Well I think when one is starving, and there is no vegetation near by which can sustain oneself, one would be permitted to kill unlawfully if they cannot kill lawfully without risking their own life, at least that is what I gain from Please correct me if I'm wrong with this understanding or state why you disagree.

I think this is God's way of saying ok you may eat them they are not technically illegal, but good luck being able to kill them in a lawful manner

So basically the hadith is wrong for making it unlawful since they are not explicitly stated as unlawful for consumption but I don't think it is easy to kill some of these animals in a lawful way. I have read that the Qu'ran does not mention rabbits as haraam (they are unlawful according to the Old Testament) but these things can outrun even the fastest predators. I doubt they will sit still and peacefully and allow their throats to be slit quickly without reacting and jumping and squirming when you try to get them in the slaughter position and cause suffering to themselves thus making their death unlawful. With Rabbits Unless it is a pet of yours and one day you find yourself starving and have to eat your pet rabbit, which will trust you I guess.

AK85

deleted post, error in modification

Ayisha

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from ;D

Mazhar

Have you studied the difference beween the three
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/035.%20Fatir/35.28.gif
And like wise amongst people, and animals and herbivore mammals their colours are different.

Chapter 35

AK85

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from ;D

See I thought of this at first and was going to ask if we should rely on the Torah for what we can and cannot eat, but don't we not need other books for guidance? And the Qu'ran doesn't mention that shellfish are haraam to my knowledge, nor does it ban meat mixed with dairy products. Correct me if the following is wrong, I am not being sarcastic with what I'm about to say, but some of the restrictions God placed on the Jews were lifted with the Qu'ran correct? Could this apply to shellfish and meat with dairy for example, if the previous is correct?

Although personally I don't like seafood, I just can't stand the smell or the taste lol

AK85

See I thought of this at first and was going to ask if we should rely on the Torah for what we can and cannot eat, but don't we not need other books for guidance? And the Qu'ran doesn't mention that shellfish are haraam to my knowledge, nor does it ban meat mixed with dairy products. Correct me if the following is wrong, I am not being sarcastic with what I'm about to say, but some of the restrictions God placed on the Jews were lifted with the Qu'ran correct? Could this apply to shellfish and meat with dairy for example, if the previous is correct?

Although personally I don't like seafood, I just can't stand the smell or the taste lol

Also that is why I asked are we supposed to deduce from the ways in which you cannot kill an animal, that the only way possible after these restrictions is by slitting its throat? It would be pretty hard to successfuly slit a tiger, eagle, ostrich or bear's throat. God doesn't ban it outright, but from my understanding He is saying, "Hey its not illegal to eat them, but good luck killing them in a lawful way"

AK85

Have you studied the difference beween the three
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/035.%20Fatir/35.28.gif
And like wise amongst people, and animals and herbivore mammals their colours are different.

Chapter 35

I just read the previous verses before that one, and from my understanding that verse is in context with explaining the differences between creatures, plants, mountains etc. What is your understanding of that verse in context with halaal food?

AK85

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from ;D

Also, in regards to confirming the Torah. The word Torah means The Lifestyle/The Law. My understanding is that God confirmed the Laws of the Torah, not the stories. Not everything in the Torah is confirmed from my understanding, God did not rest after the 6th day, God was not convinced by Satan to test Job. How could Satan convince and give suggestions to the All Knowing? And in the Torah Satan is the one who is sent to bring adversity to Job. All things are from God, Satan is only a deceiver/seducer/tempter. God would personally destroy Sodom and Gommorrha, the debased people in these cities, and he would give Satan (who is described in the Bible as a liar, thief and murderer) a free hand against his most blameless and upright servant? (This description of Job is verbatim from the Bible, in fact the book of Job says that Satan just randomly shows up in Heaven and after a brief awkward moment God starts to brag about Job to Satan, who then replies yeah well guess what, if you take everything away from him he will curse you to your face.) And then God says oh really...ok, go and do what you want to him, but don't kill him. And then Job after losing a lot of things, according to the book of Job curses the day he was born, and questions God about certain things, and when God finally replies, he says something along the lines of "Who is the person who speaks with no knowledge?" And this is confirmed as a rebuke of Job and not his three friends who come to comfort him in the end of the book of Job.

Mazhar

I just read the previous verses before that one, and from my understanding that verse is in context with explaining the differences between creatures, plants, mountains etc. What is your understanding of that verse in context with halaal food?

I drew the attention to see the classification of Animal kingdom to find difference between lion and herbivore mammals the meat of some of which can become the part of meal. Food includes only two things, produce of Earth and meat of animals, both are partly "halal", because they can be disintegrated and liquified by our internal digestive system.

AK85

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from ;D

Still waiting reply on why you feel the Qu'ran is not enough to find out what is and isn't forbidden.

Ayisha

Also, in regards to confirming the Torah. The word Torah means The Lifestyle/The Law. My understanding is that God confirmed the Laws of the Torah, not the stories. Not everything in the Torah is confirmed from my understanding, God did not rest after the 6th day, God was not convinced by Satan to test Job. How could Satan convince and give suggestions to the All Knowing?
similarly how could satan refuse the all knowing, then be granted respite for that and be allowed to do as he said he would do to mankind?

007.011
YUSUFALI It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.
007.012
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
007.013
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "Get thee down from this it is not for thee to be arrogant here get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
007.014
YUSUFALI He said "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
007.015
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "Be thou among those who have respite."
007.016
YUSUFALI He said "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way
007.017
YUSUFALI "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
007.018
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.

And in the Torah Satan is the one who is sent to bring adversity to Job. All things are from God, Satan is only a deceiver/seducer/tempter. God would personally destroy Sodom and Gommorrha, the debased people in these cities, and he would give Satan (who is described in the Bible as a liar, thief and murderer) a free hand against his most blameless and upright servant? (This description of Job is verbatim from the Bible, in fact the book of Job says that Satan just randomly shows up in Heaven and after a brief awkward moment God starts to brag about Job to Satan, who then replies yeah well guess what, if you take everything away from him he will curse you to your face.) And then God says oh really...ok, go and do what you want to him, but don't kill him. And then Job after losing a lot of things, according to the book of Job curses the day he was born, and questions God about certain things, and when God finally replies, he says something along the lines of "Who is the person who speaks with no knowledge?" And this is confirmed as a rebuke of Job and not his three friends who come to comfort him in the end of the book of Job.

The book of Job is not Torah, Torah is the first 5 Books of the old testament, not all of it.

Much is lost in translation of the old books as I have said before.

AK85

similarly how could satan refuse the all knowing, then be granted respite for that and be allowed to do as he said he would do to mankind?

007.011
YUSUFALI It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate.
007.012
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
007.013
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "Get thee down from this it is not for thee to be arrogant here get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."
007.014
YUSUFALI He said "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
007.015
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "Be thou among those who have respite."
007.016
YUSUFALI He said "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way
007.017
YUSUFALI "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
007.018
YUSUFALI (Allah) said "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all. The book of Job is not Torah, Torah is the first 5 Books of the old testament, not all of it.

Much is lost in translation of the old books as I have said before.

And that is why we rely on the Qu'ran, because it confirms for us what food is permissible for us

AK85

And that is why we rely on the Qu'ran, because it confirms for us what food is permissible for us

what does The God being All Knowing have to do with Satan refusing Him? This has to do with Satan's arrogance. And The God granted him respite because he uses Satan unto his own ends, to tempt people on earth.

Salaam,

Yes, I am aware that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

Therefore by your argument, instead of abstaining from only 4 food namely blood, carrion, pork and food dedicated to idols (2173, 53, 6145 and 16115), we muslims have to abstain from food that is forbidden in the Torah (Leviticus 111-45)? The list includes animals with undivided hoof, sea animals with no fins or no scales, fowls that creep, birds of prey, carnivores and creeping animals. You may argue that God forbids different food to Jews because as punishment, but the forbidden food for Jews, as the Qur'an stated is (apart from the four food already forbidden for muslims) animals with claws and fats of oxen and cattle that touch the bones (6146) . Therefore tell me, out of the Torah and the Qur'an, which ones will you follow when it comes to the prohibitions of food?

Shall we then stone people guilty of adultery and witchcraft to death? Deuteronomy 222, Leviticus 2027.

Shall we too stone people guilty of apostasy to death? Deuteronomy 131-10

If you believe that the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, to be confirmed by Qur'an, then I take it you believe the story of the Prophets in the Torah? Will you then believe that Lot became intoxicated and laid with his two daughters? Will you then believe that Jacob deceived Isaac in order to steal the blessing of his own brother?

There are many other things I can mention, but I will refrain. My point is, there ARE many commandments in the Torah that you do not find the Qur'an and the portrayal of the prophets in the Torah is oftentimes not as noble and honourable as in the Qur'an. In regards to Torah, I believe there is some truth and some errors. The Qur'an confirms the truth that you can find in the Torah, but not the errors. Since the Qur'an does NOT confirm circumcision, I do not take it as a commandment that should be imposed on mankind.

Salaam.

Ayisha

what does The God being All Knowing have to do with Satan refusing Him? This has to do with Satan's arrogance. And The God granted him respite because he uses Satan unto his own ends, to tempt people on earth.

being All Knowing has nothing to do with Satan refusing Him. So God is now using Satan to His own ends to tempt people that God is telling stay on the straight path?

Salaam,

Yes, I am aware that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

Therefore by your argument, instead of abstaining from only 4 food namely blood, carrion, pork and food dedicated to idols (2173, 53, 6145 and 16115), we muslims have to abstain from food that is forbidden in the Torah (Leviticus 111-45)? The list includes animals with undivided hoof, sea animals with no fins or no scales, fowls that creep, birds of prey, carnivores and creeping animals. You may argue that God forbids different food to Jews because as punishment, but the forbidden food for Jews, as the Qur'an stated is (apart from the four food already forbidden for muslims) animals with claws and fats of oxen and cattle that touch the bones (6146) . Therefore tell me, out of the Torah and the Qur'an, which ones will you follow when it comes to the prohibitions of food?

Shall we then stone people guilty of adultery and witchcraft to death? Deuteronomy 222, Leviticus 2027.

Shall we too stone people guilty of apostasy to death? Deuteronomy 131-10

If you believe that the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, to be confirmed by Qur'an, then I take it you believe the story of the Prophets in the Torah? Will you then believe that Lot became intoxicated and laid with his two daughters? Will you then believe that Jacob deceived Isaac in order to steal the blessing of his own brother?

There are many other things I can mention, but I will refrain. My point is, there ARE many commandments in the Torah that you do not find the Qur'an and the portrayal of the prophets in the Torah is oftentimes not as noble and honourable as in the Qur'an. In regards to Torah, I believe there is some truth and some errors. The Qur'an confirms the truth that you can find in the Torah, but not the errors. Since the Qur'an does NOT confirm circumcision, I do not take it as a commandment that should be imposed on mankind.

Salaam.

When you quote someone elses words it is good manners to show who said it as you were not aware Torah was the first 5 books as you questioned me from the book of Job.

To reply to the actual questioner, I have no argument, all I did was state what was in Torah from God through Moses. Quran is clear that there were different dietry requirements for Jews but the animals to be used for food, and the killing of them, were named in Torah and that was the point I was trying to make. I did not state that to make some great argument for leaving Quran and reading 'other books' nor did I state that for any other reason than that it is clearer which animals and which methods of killing as the OP didnt seem to find it clear in Quran, I thought maybe that looking at God's other books may help, I was very wrong and it was taken as bait.

As for stoning people, that has been replaced by lashing in the Quran for adultery and God will deal with apostates unless you are of the belief they should be killed in some other way?

As for the stories of the prophets in Torah, I personally dont find them anything to do with faith in general, MY faith in Allah or what Allah wants from mankind, so they are not necessary to me. I would ask as I asked previously though, would you feel the same regarding Moses killing a man in Torah if you had not had that story confirmed by Quran?

Quran does confirm truth you find in Torah, I agree there, but it does also correct some errors that man has used and added, like Jesus in the NT being the son of God, although Jesus never said it, it was said to him. I found that only recently and was quite surprised.

Personally, I dont see why God would need to have to confirm every detail in those books in Quran, He confirms they were sent from Him and at the time of this confirmation He knew very well what was in them. He confirmed the odd story and corrected some, which for me personally is more than proof enough He sent them. I will say again that I personally believe, at this point in my journey of my faith, that Quran is the last part of the message from God to mankind. That all the Books sent from Him are one and that Islam is formed from the whole message. This is One religion with One Message sent from One God through many messengers.

As for circumcision, I still believe that this was through a covenant between Abraham and God as stated in Torah. All prophets were connected with this covenant with God. I dont think it was necessary for God to again confirm circumcision in Quran as He has confirmed those Books are from Him anyway and thats where that Law is. Quran is clear that ALL prophets were taught the Law, the Law is what is in Torah and known as The Law of Moses.

AK85

Yes, that is exactly what He does. He tests the believers does He not? He allows Satan respite to lead and to attempt to lead people astray.

AK85