[5:3] question

AK85

being All Knowing has nothing to do with Satan refusing Him. So God is now using Satan to His own ends to tempt people that God is telling stay on the straight path?

When you quote someone elses words it is good manners to show who said it as you were not aware Torah was the first 5 books as you questioned me from the book of Job.

To reply to the actual questioner, I have no argument, all I did was state what was in Torah from God through Moses. Quran is clear that there were different dietry requirements for Jews but the animals to be used for food, and the killing of them, were named in Torah and that was the point I was trying to make. I did not state that to make some great argument for leaving Quran and reading 'other books' nor did I state that for any other reason than that it is clearer which animals and which methods of killing as the OP didnt seem to find it clear in Quran, I thought maybe that looking at God's other books may help, I was very wrong and it was taken as bait.

As for stoning people, that has been replaced by lashing in the Quran for adultery and God will deal with apostates unless you are of the belief they should be killed in some other way?

As for the stories of the prophets in Torah, I personally dont find them anything to do with faith in general, MY faith in Allah or what Allah wants from mankind, so they are not necessary to me. I would ask as I asked previously though, would you feel the same regarding Moses killing a man in Torah if you had not had that story confirmed by Quran?

Quran does confirm truth you find in Torah, I agree there, but it does also correct some errors that man has used and added, like Jesus in the NT being the son of God, although Jesus never said it, it was said to him. I found that only recently and was quite surprised.

Personally, I dont see why God would need to have to confirm every detail in those books in Quran, He confirms they were sent from Him and at the time of this confirmation He knew very well what was in them. He confirmed the odd story and corrected some, which for me personally is more than proof enough He sent them. I will say again that I personally believe, at this point in my journey of my faith, that Quran is the last part of the message from God to mankind. That all the Books sent from Him are one and that Islam is formed from the whole message. This is One religion with One Message sent from One God through many messengers.

As for circumcision, I still believe that this was through a covenant between Abraham and God as stated in Torah. All prophets were connected with this covenant with God. I dont think it was necessary for God to again confirm circumcision in Quran as He has confirmed those Books are from Him anyway and thats where that Law is. Quran is clear that ALL prophets were taught the Law, the Law is what is in Torah and known as The Law of Moses.

Of course I am aware what the Torah is and what sequence it is in the Bible. I am taking a course right now specifically on the Torah and the Bible, which is how I knew the book of Job was in the Torah and became familiar with the story.

Don't talk to me about good manners, when you slander me and make me out to be a judge whom everyone should seek the approval of.

What stands out is that you refer to the old testament to look for prohibitions which were NOT PLACED ON US but placed on JEWS. You yourself quote laws from the OT about foods which you yourself admit you follow either still or before for what food you should and should not eat.

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from Grin

And I don't deny that He sent them either. I deny that the laws which are not confirmed to be followed in The Book which is a clear explanation for everything are to be adhered to.

Ayisha

Of course I am aware what the Torah is and what sequence it is in the Bible. I am taking a course right now specifically on the Torah and the Bible, which is how I knew the book of Job was in the Torah and became familiar with the story.
The book of job is not in Torah. It is in the Old Testament, Torah is the first 5 books only, not all the Old Testament.

Don't talk to me about good manners, when you slander me and make me out to be a judge whom everyone should seek the approval of.
I have not slandered you at all, you have accused me of saying things I have not said because you twisted what I did say and interrogated me on things you thought I said.

What stands out is that you refer to the old testament to look for prohibitions which were NOT PLACED ON US but placed on JEWS. You yourself quote laws from the OT about foods which you yourself admit you follow either still or before for what food you should and should not eat.
I will say it again for the limited in understanding. "all I did was state what was in Torah from God through Moses." Nowhere have I 'admitted to following' and whether I followed before or now has nothing to do with this discussion or you, which I will repeat I have not 'admitted to following'. You yourself asked the same question, you questioned it yourself and now you're accusing me?

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from Grin

And I don't deny that He sent them either. I deny that the laws which are not confirmed to be followed in The Book which is a clear explanation for everything are to be adhered to.

Thats fine, thats up to you and nowhere did I say you had to, fact is you yourself thought that then attack me for saying the same.

AK85

The book of job is not in Torah. It is in the Old Testament, Torah is the first 5 books only, not all the Old Testament.
I have not slandered you at all, you have accused me of saying things I have not said because you twisted what I did say and interrogated me on things you thought I said.
I will say it again for the limited in understanding. "all I did was state what was in Torah from God through Moses." Nowhere have I 'admitted to following' and whether I followed before or now has nothing to do with this discussion or you, which I will repeat I have not 'admitted to following'. You yourself asked the same question, you questioned it yourself and now you're accusing me?
Thats fine, thats up to you and nowhere did I say you had to, fact is you yourself thought that then attack me for saying the same.

You're right about that. I apologize for insisting the Book of Job is in the Torah. I'm not apologizing for anything else though, you are wrong and are denying what you said yourself and were proven wrong with your own posts.

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, (you are following torah criteria here) so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, (you are following torah criteria here) you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from Grin

Go ahead and keep referring to other books to supplement essential knowledge which you feel is not covered in the Qu'ran in an adequate manner, just realize you will be questioned for this one day. And if you fear The God, do not encourage others to look to other books besides the Qu'ran for divine laws and commandments and explanations. The Qu'ran is a clear explanation for everything. You and them will both pay for this, you will pay for leading them astray, and they will pay for blindly following you.

AK85

Sorry if you don't like being "interrogated" maybe you shouldn't post in forums then? Or keep things to yourself?

Ayisha

You're right about that. I apologize for insisting the Book of Job is in the Torah. I'm not apologizing for anything else though, you are wrong and are denying what you said yourself and were proven wrong with your own posts.

Considering Allah confirmed the torah and given we are allowed to eat the food of the Jews, the instructions regarding what you can or cannot eat are in Torah.
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11&version=KJV
http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+14&version=KJV

Thats also where it says about seafood too. You will find this is the same food as in Quran but I think the various birds and animals are named more. Tigers and Lions have paws, (you are following torah criteria here) so they are out. No eagle pies either and actually no shellfish, (you are following torah criteria here) you will find many muslims also say this but are never sure where it came from Grin

You never did answer my question "what is your problem with me?"
This was your first reply to that post when I first posted it

See I thought of this at first and was going to ask if we should rely on the Torah for what we can and cannot eat, but don't we not need other books for guidance? And the Qu'ran doesn't mention that shellfish are haraam to my knowledge, nor does it ban meat mixed with dairy products. Correct me if the following is wrong, I am not being sarcastic with what I'm about to say, but some of the restrictions God placed on the Jews were lifted with the Qu'ran correct? Could this apply to shellfish and meat with dairy for example, if the previous is correct?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600857.msg252715#msg252715

I've noticed that the Qu'ran does not state the method of slaughtering for animals, but states methods which are not permissible and does say that the food of the people of the book is lawful for you. . Are we then permitted to consult the laws of the Jews in regards to slaughtering animals since it says their food is lawful for us? Except for the restrictions they have which are not accounted for (I'm thinking of meat and dairy) in the Qu'ran?

Of the methods described which are not lawful, may we deduce based on the way that Jews performed their slaughter that the only method remaining for slaughter is to sever the animal's neck/throat?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600857.msg252656#msg252656

Go ahead and keep referring to other books to supplement essential knowledge which you feel is not covered in the Qu'ran in an adequate manner, just realize you will be questioned for this one day.

The very fact that they would be afraid to read other books shows their iman is already weak.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598105.msg253887#msg253887
so now its not ok, or not ok for me, or your iman has become weak, what is the problem now? It was fine back when you posted the above.

You know, I've noticed the hadiths which go further in describing unlawful animals (for consumption) saying that carnivores, birds of prey (those with hooked beaks) are unlawful etc. even though they are not unlawful according to the Qu'ran.

Some of these hadith are indeed inspirational, and touch the hearts of those who only seek the guidance of the Qu'ran, because they are merely paraphrasing what can already be found in the Qu'ran

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600452.msg252729#msg252729
so hadith are ok but Gods other Books arent?

Here we have you quoting a whole load of hadith in your 'favourite hadith' thread, but look at Gods other Books which you yourself say is the Law and are in agreement they were confirmed in Quran as sent from God Himself? Oh no cant do that!
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13860.msg252668#msg252668

And if you fear The God, do not encourage others to look to other books besides the Qu'ran for divine laws and commandments and explanations. The Qu'ran is a clear explanation for everything. You and them will both pay for this, you will pay for leading them astray, and they will pay for blindly following you.

???

So I am leading people astray and you are not in any way at all by the things you have said yourself then attacking me for looking at Gods other Books?

First of all, when they say "We bear witness" can it not be said (I'm seriously asking for some feedback and perhaps constructive criticism on the following) they are hypocrites because they are not actually bearing witness? Are they in the prophet pbuh's head and witnessing the revelation? They are only witnessing it through him uttering the revelation, not through directly witnessing the message being delivered

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600863.msg253206#msg253206

You attacked me from that thread onwards, why? If you dont want answers then dont ask the questions. If you dont like the answers then learn to discuss it instead of attacking for saying the same as you have said yourself.

Some of us have the wisdom of practicing tolerance and patience to disregard insults and bitter/vitriolic accusations and can respond kindly and only with a spirit of truth and justice, but a sizable percentage of people will not do this. (from my experience anyway)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600875.msg253183#msg253183

From my experience you do not fit in the 'some of us' in your statement. You have twisted my words and accused me of saying or implying things I have not. You have made judgements based on what you have decided I have said or told me what I meant by what I have said. You SHOUT about Quran explaining everything yet ask the very same questions regarding Torah that you attack me for mentioning, at the same time telling me 'we' need no other books you are quite happy using hadith but not Gods books which you yourself study. You also claim if one is afraid to look at the other books then their iman is weak! You dont seem to know what you believe or not but insist on what I should or should not be looking at or referring to!
???

Ayisha

Sorry if you don't like being "interrogated" maybe you shouldn't post in forums then? Or keep things to yourself?

If you dont want answers then maybe you should not ask questions in forums? Or go look up the answers that you will be happy with from wherever you feel happier looking at that time?

AK85

Yeah, I said they are inspirational because they are basically paraphrased from the Qu'ran. Which you didn't quote of course.

AK85

lol.

Did I say they should follow the laws of other books? Please quote where I said that, thanks.

And really? I said everything in the Torah was confirmed in the Qu'ran? Really? Where did I say that? I never brought up the example of Job cursing the day he was born? I never brought up the example of Lot sleeping with his own daughters?

Your iman is weak if you are afraid to read other books thinking it will stray you from the path. Read what I replied to, thanks. I mean I don't believe that we should follow Jewish dietary restrictions, so I'm not afraid to read the OT or the gospels or anything else...

AK85

Yeah, I said they are inspirational because they are basically paraphrased from the Qu'ran. Which you didn't quote of course.

And I am not happy using hadith. Once again you misquoted me. I said they are merely paraphrasing what is already in the Qu'ran. Which you ignored.

Peace.

AK85

Maybe if you gave answers that didn't involve following laws that weren't confirmed in the Qu'ran I would be happy?

You said you believe in circumcision because it was confirmed in the Torah.

There is really nothing at all more to discuss.

Feel free to sit in your exalted self righteous throne.

Does the Qu'ran say judge with the Qu'ran par its instructions to the prophet, or does it say judge with the Qu'ran, and the old testament if you need it. Thanks, no answer necessary. Carry on.

AK85

If you dont want answers then maybe you should not ask questions in forums? Or go look up the answers that you will be happy with from wherever you feel happier looking at that time?

You mean like the old testament? Once again, I never said hadith is ok to look at. I merely pointed out that some of them paraphrase WHAT IS ALREADY IN THE QU'RAN AND THEN I EVEN PROVIDED VERSES FROM THE QU'RAN TO BACK THIS UP.

Seriously don't say anything, you are just digging yourself a bigger hole.

Here, this is what I posted, verbatim go ahead and verify it for yourself, and look at my responses as well

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600452.msg252886#msg252886

Shall I not tell you whom the (Hell)
Fire is forbidden to touch? It is forbidden to touch a man who is
always accessible, having polite and tender nature.''

Ok, the Prophet pbuh cannot guarantee salvation. However I think we can all agree that there is quite a good chance that hell fire cannot touch you if you display the above characteristics. We can deduce that those who are always accessible, having polite and tender nature, are patiently persevering because they are God fearing. The Qu'ran says the most honoured in God's sight are those who are God fearing. And that God is with those who patiently persevere.

Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.

O mankind, We have created you male and female, and appointed you nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most Godfearing of you. God is All-knowing, All-aware.

"Oh you who believe! Seek help with patient perseverance and prayer, for God is with those who patiently persevere."

"Here we have you quoting a whole load of hadith in your 'favourite hadith' thread, but look at Gods other Books which you yourself say is the Law and are in agreement they were confirmed in Quran as sent from God Himself? Oh no cant do that!"

First of all, it wasn't my thread.

Second of all, what was the last sentence I wrote after the hadith I posted?

once again, just paraphrasing what's already in the Qu'ran but good hadith nonetheless

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13860.msg252668#msg252668

'One who strives to help the widows and the poor is like the one who fights in the way of Allah.''
The narrator said I think that he (PBUH) added also
'I shall regard him as the one who stands up (for prayer) without rest and as the one who observes fasts continuously'.
.

Not sure about the second part of that hadith, if it is in the Qu'ran.

And why should ye not fight in the cause of The God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'

Are poor people and widows strong?

'The strong man is not one who is good at wrestling, but the strong man is one who controls himself in a fit of rage.''
.

"Oh you who believe! Seek help with patient perseverance and prayer, for God is with those who patiently persevere."

'Shall I not tell you whom the (Hell)
Fire is forbidden to touch? It is forbidden to touch a man who is
always accessible, having polite and tender nature.''

Ok, the Prophet pbuh cannot guarantee salvation. However I think we can all agree that there is quite a good chance that hell fire cannot touch you if you display the above characteristics. We can deduce that those who are always accessible, having polite and tender nature, are patiently persevering because they are God fearing. The Qu'ran says the most honoured in God's sight are those who are God fearing. And that God is with those who patiently persevere.

Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.

O mankind, We have created you male and female, and appointed you nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most Godfearing of you. God is All-knowing, All-aware.

"Oh you who believe! Seek help with patient perseverance and prayer, for God is with those who patiently persevere."

'I will be like this in Jannah with the
person who takes care of an orphan'. Messenger of Allah (PBUH) raised
his forefinger and middle finger by way of illustration..

And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfill the covenant of The God thus doth He command you, that ye may remember.

As for the other hadiths I posted

"You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another." (Muslim)

"Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith."

'He who is involved (in the
responsibility) of (bringing up) daughters, and he is benevolent
towards them, they would become protection for him against Hell-fire'.
.

'The believers who show the most perfect
Faith are those who have the best behaviour, and the best of you are
those who are the best to their wives'..

'The world is but a (quick passing) enjoyment; and the best enjoyment of the world is a pious and virtuous woman'. .

I am not sure if there are verses in the Qu'ran which can back these remaining hadith up. So for saying that ALL the hadith I quoted are paraphrased in the Qu'ran I apologize to The God for slandering The Book without knowledge.

AK85

And I'm not saying its ok to follow hadith, just merely pointing out that some hadith can be traced to the Qu'ran. However it is not good to follow hadith, simply because even the "good" hadith are already in the Qu'ran.

Ayisha

lol.

Did I say they should follow the laws of other books? Please quote where I said that, thanks.
please quote where I accused you of that.

And really? I said everything in the Torah was confirmed in the Qu'ran? Really? Where did I say that?
Please quote where I said you did.

Your iman is weak if you are afraid to read other books thinking it will stray you from the path. Read what I replied to, thanks.
Like you have all through this mud-slinging discussion regarding what I have said? You did not write what you just put in bold yet you accused me of saying the recital period was enough when you even had my whole sentence to quote which was very clear what I said, you twisted that to your own desire even though it was not what I said. What you ask of others you should make sure you do yourself.

I mean I don't believe that we should follow Jewish dietary restrictions, so I'm not afraid to read the OT or the gospels or anything else...

good, then stop attacking me for doing the same.

Ayisha

Yeah, I said they are inspirational because they are basically paraphrased from the Qu'ran. Which you didn't quote of course.

did you skim over or blink when I quoted Quran regarding dietry laws and killing when you couldnt find it in there and asked should we use Torah?

Ayisha

And I am not happy using hadith. Once again you misquoted me. I said they are merely paraphrasing what is already in the Qu'ran. Which you ignored.

Peace.

you misquote me for how many pages and now you accuse me of misquoting you when its clear I did not, again!

Ayisha

Maybe if you gave answers that didn't involve following laws that weren't confirmed in the Qu'ran I would be happy?
No I dont think anything would make you happy with me unless I left this forum which you seem to think is an interrogation forum and I thought it was a discussion forum!

You said you believe in circumcision because it was confirmed in the Torah.
I said Torah is where it originated from. Misqouting me again.

There is really nothing at all more to discuss.
Alhamdulillah!

Feel free to sit in your exalted self righteous throne.
rotfl says the Judge and prosecutor who has hounded me from thread to thread from his exalted throne of self righteousness

Does the Qu'ran say judge with the Qu'ran par its instructions to the prophet, or does it say judge with the Qu'ran, and the old testament if you need it. Thanks, no answer necessary. Carry on.

but you are getting an answer like it or not. you are judging me and still have not read anything I said regarding Quran?

Ayisha

You mean like the old testament? Once again, I never said hadith is ok to look at. I merely pointed out that some of them paraphrase WHAT IS ALREADY IN THE QU'RAN AND THEN I EVEN PROVIDED VERSES FROM THE QU'RAN TO BACK THIS UP.
I mean wherever you feel happier looking. You obviously feel happier looking at hadith and matching them up with Quran as proof for yourself, yet you attack me for doing the same with God's books and providing the same referrences to Quran?

Seriously don't say anything, you are just digging yourself a bigger hole.
judging me again? Allah will judge me, not you. He will also judge you so beware.