The Grave Issue

[zenje]

Salaam,

The subject came up when Mystic mentioned it on another thread, and I must say it brought up some memories of the beginning, for me. I remember writing briefly about this issue in the ?How You Came To God Alone? section, when I joined free-minds, but that was on the old board.

Punishment in the grave. This is an issue that bugged me for years, and I would even say, it was the catalyst to get the fire of seeking for knowledge burning inside of me. Some years ago (close to a dozen), there was a time when I turned to reading the quran, in English. I picked a Saudi Arabian translation which was actually based off of Yusuf Ali. I think I was having some personal problems in my life, and for some reason, I thought to find solace and comfort in the quran. I was never an avid follower of religion, although being brought up in a sunni family, I would try and keep my five times a day prayers and ofcourse the Friday at the mosque deal. Anyway, you get the picture.

I read the quran in English for the first time in my life (I used to recite like a parrot in Arabic from when I was 7). I was fascinated by this book. It captivated me, and that?s very unusual because I wasn?t a reader, as such. As soon as I finished, I started reading it again. And again, and again? I couldn?t stop myself. I couldn?t get over the fact that this book taught me something new every time I read it, it was like new. One day, out of nowhere something struck me as odd. I couldn't remember reading about punishment in the grave. I thought to myself, this must be some mistake on my part, let me read this again, this time, specifically looking for verses dealing with punishment in the grave.

Now, I don?t know about you guys, or your upbringing, but I?ll tell you a bit about the sunni mentality I grew up in. Punishment in the grave (that means, after you die and before the day of resurrection and judgment) was a very big issue. The graphic detail and the stories we used to hear about what happens after you die (there?s even a book with that title! lol ), would be so scary, it would take precedence over hell! Seriously, this is the gravity of this issue. So when I couldn?t find the subject in the quran, the doubts began. How is this possible? In the quran, there are stories about the beginning of creation, about messengers during different times, about life now, life in the future, death, detailed stories on resurrection, Day of Judgment, paradise, hell? all this, yet no mention of what happens in the grave. Curious indeed. This was way before I discovered that all these stories were derived from traditional Hadith. Way before I learnt that there are people who reject traditions and focus on God alone and follow His word alone. So you can imagine the confusion I had. I tried to ask some people what they thought about this, or if they knew anything on the subject that would calm me down? maybe I still missed something. The answer was, no, you?re not educated, you won?t understand the quran without bukhari and company, you don?t know what you?re talking about, etc. Well, the rest, as they say, is history, because praise be to the God, I kept on until I found like-minded people. It may have taken years, but at least I don?t regret or see that as a waste, but a learning experience.

I would like to share some verses with you that I believe contradict the whole punishment in the grave scenario. First of all if you look at logically, how is it that you would get severe punishment in the grave, for however long you?re there, and then be ?judged? on the Day of Reckoning? Does that make sense at all? Anyway, as I said, you will notice in the quran that the sequence of events, completely omit the picture from when you die to the day of judgement.

That is because God is the truth, and He gives life to the dead, and He is capable of all things.
And the Hour is coming, there is no doubt in it, and God will resurrect those who are in the graves.

God will resurrect those who are in the graves? when?...

Then after that, you will die.
Then you will be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection.

You will notice this throughout the quran? you die, then you will be resurrected on the Day. No punishment in between death and resurrection. Somehow that crucial event is missing. No ?other? resurrection within the grave.

?Do you believe in some of the Scripture and disbelieve in some? The punishment for those amongst you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be returned to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.

Humiliation in this worldly life, not death, and then the punishment on or after the Day of Resurrection.

The God says that we have two lives and two deaths?

They will Say ?Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path??

The verse below clarifies this point further?

How can you reject God when you were dead and He brought you to life? Then He makes you die, then He brings you to life, then to Him you return.

My understanding on these verses is that we were ?dead?(1) before we were given life(1). Then we die (2), then we?re resurrected to life (2) on the Day.

Last but not least, if someone was being tortured in the grave, would they really think they were in the grave about a day or so?

The Day the horn is blown, and We gather the criminals on that Day white eyed.
They whisper amongst themselves ?You have only been away for a period of ten.?
We are fully aware of what they say, for the best in knowledge amongst them will Say ?No, you have only been away for a day.?

Perhaps, the time factor is a little confusing after the whole re-resurrection thing, but will they think that they were relaxing?

They will Say ?Woe to us. Who has resurrected us from our resting place? This is what the Almighty had promised. The messengers were truthful!?

So, to summarize, there is NO MENTION whatsoever about punishment in the grave, but pretty much everything else is in detail. After all, the God says;

And We have cited to mankind in this Quran of every example, but most of mankind refuse to be anything but a rejecter!

The ones who took their system as amusement and games, and were preoccupied with this worldly life. Today We forget them as they forgot their meeting on this Day, and they did not heed Our revelations.
And We have come to them with a Scripture which We have detailed with knowledge; a guide and a mercy to those who believe.

What more do we want?

Peace.

Note (1) I may be wrong, so if anyone would like to debate the issue, please keep the discussion quran based. (2) Does anyone know if any other scripture talks about punishment in the grave?

[beatnik]

I've been under the impression that after death you spend a short amount of time in some kind of state outside this particular reality before being thrown back up and into Judgement Day, its almost an instantaneous transfer, thousands of years gone by in the blink of an eye. Infact as I type this now, Judgement Day is happening, its just outside the time and space I am living in right now, only God is in all states of past, present and future, thats why the Quran seems to flip through all three states of time so fluidly.

Or something like that. The fact that its not dwelt upon in the Quran must mean its not worth dwelling upon. Just knowing that your life will end and then you will be forced out of the grave, or the state of reality you're temporarily kept in (like say, the 'construct' of the Matrix films), for Judgement Day is enough. I think we're given clues that it will be a short stay, I cant really find any right now but there's various verses pointing us to the concept of time being perceived differntly for us and God, etc.

[mmkhan]

Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,
Salaamun Alaikum

After reading all the posts these verse came into my mind.

2399
23100
23101

"Until death comes to one of them, he says My Lord, send me back." 2399

"So that I may do good in that which I have left behind. No, it is but a word he is speaking. And there is a barrier to prevent them from going back until the Day they are all resurrected". 23100

"So when the horn is blown, then there will be no kinship between them on that Day, nor will they ask for one another." 23101

I think 2399 is in relation with 497, 850, 4727

And it is clearly mentioned in 23100 that all deads are in a barrier until the day of resurrection. Then how is grave's punishment possible?

Is one more day there when the horn is blown as mentioned in 23101? But I think, the horn will blown on 'yawm alQayaamati'.

"And they have not given Allah His true worth; and the whole Earth is within His fist on the Day of Resurrection (yawm alQayaamati), and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Be He glorified; He is much too high above what they set up." 3967

"And the horn will be blown, whereupon everyone in the heavens and the Earth will be struck unconscious (tha-e'iqa), except those spared by Allah. Then it will be blown another time, whereupon they will all rise up, looking." 3968

"And the Earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought forth; and it will then be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged." 3969

"And every soul will be paid (wuffiyat) for whatever it did, for He is fully aware of everything they have done." 3970

A question on 3968. When the horn is blown, all get unconscious? Then what about the livings? When will they die? As per 3185 every nafs has to die. And who are those who will NOT get unconscious with the will of Allah?

And 3969 and 3185 made it clear that the judgement is only on 'yawm alQiyaamati'. Then how is the possibility of punishment (in graves) before judgement, when Allah says 'wa hum laa yuzlamoon' in 3969.

Like a criminal died in a period of Nooh and another criminal died an hour before the doom. Then how will be their punishments in grave (if there is), when Allah is not going to do any Zulm?

And I think 3970 also clarifies that 'wuffiyat' means 'complete' (please correct me if I am wrong here) rewards will be given to every soul for what they did ('amilat).

Hope this helps.

Regards,

MMKhan

[ichephren]

Well from 23100, we know that those who die know which side they are on before the judgement, or why would they want to be sent back to do good? So, they know some truth before the judgement comes.

[Jafar]

(2) Does anyone know if any other scripture talks about punishment in the grave?

Interestingly the jews had a similar concept. They call it "Sheol" / "The world of the dead" and references to the "sheol" can be found in (Gen 3735, Gen 4431, Gen 4431, Num 1630-33, Deu 3222, Isa 514 and many more..) and the "details" of what is happening in the 'sheol' can only be found in Midrash, Mishna, Gemarra, Talmud (Oral Tradition), which of course includes many 'bizzare' concepts yet also many similarities.

And another one is from Mithraism...
A soul recently dead will face "Osiris" god of the dead, and the soul will face a 'quick judgement and questioning' by 'Osiris'. .. the one that did not pleased him (Osiris) will be tortured in sheol / the underworld.

And from http//www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/osiris.html
"There is some evidence that in Egypt the slain corn-spirit - the dead Osiris - was represented by a human victim, whom the reapers slew on the harvest-field, mourning his death in a dirge..."

Thus the image of "Grim Reaper" is born...

Wallahualam Bisshowab..