why are vices like drinking, gambling not discouraged here?
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Peace,
It's not the tool, It's the human. Alcohol, as far as I know, intensifies who you are/want to be at your very core. What's the excuse for the sober idiots?
It says to avoid intoxication, not alcohol. There are many ways one can be intoxicated physically/psychologically. You might not 'drink' at all and still be in a drunken stupor, figuratively speaking. We all get 'intoxicated' one way or another, but do you get so intoxicated that you forget God? The internet could be considered an intoxicant, video games, etc etc
Also, wine is referred to as a good sign/source of income (1667). Plus, if you take into account 593, nothing you consume can be 'haram'.i hope its not coz ppl like drinking and want to twist the quran to suit themselves
That's a good reminder. However, my counter-argument would be perhaps others also feel that alcohol is 'haram' due to preconceptions/traditions/upbringing, and can't view the quran free from those traditions.
There are many threads on the subject e.g. this one http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7896.msg15179#msg15179 -
Peace,
It's not the tool, It's the human. Alcohol, as far as I know, intensifies who you are/want to be at your very core. What's the excuse for the sober idiots?
It says to avoid intoxication, not alcohol. There are many ways one can be intoxicated physically/psychologically. You might not 'drink' at all and still be in a drunken stupor, figuratively speaking.
Also, wine is referred to as a good sign/source of income (1667). Plus, if you take into account 593, nothing you consume can be 'haram'.That's a good reminder. However, my counter-argument would be perhaps others also feel that alcohol is 'haram' due to preconceptions/traditions/upbringing, and can't view the quran free from those traditions.
There are many threads on the subject e.g. this one http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7896.msg15179#msg15179Mostly agree with this post except to say that I'd hardly claim alcohol "intensifies who you are/want to be at your very core." Can maybe say that about some other substances but not really about a soporific, dulling agent like alcohol.
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Peace rraza )
I agree with your views about alcohol.
Personally, i believe drinking alcohol (using intoxicants for pleasure) is not compatible with the Quran. Alcohol is not forbidden, because if it was forbidden, we would not be able to use it for good purposes, like for instance medical purposes. I believe alcohol and other intoxicants should only be used for good purposes like medicinal purposes etc. Not for drinking to have fun and be carefree.
The Quran tells us to avoid drinking
Quran 590
O you who have believed, indeed, intoxicants, gambling, stone alters , and divining arrows are but defilement from the work of Satan, so avoid it that you may be successful.The Quran asks us to stop drinking
Quran 591
Satan desires to stir up enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants and gambling and to prevent you from the remembrance of Allah and from Salah. Will you not abstain?Also check this thread below. One member has written interesting things about alcohol here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10889.msg100806#msg100806
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peace,
so im just saying that maybe we shudnt ENCOURAGE the fact that alchohol and gambling is not forbidden and use the brains that Allah has given us to decide for ourselves that abstaining from them..specially gambling wud be beneficial for not only the individual but also for the society.
As far as I'm aware, this is what is commonly promoted here.
The key problem is rather simple, it is our own preconceived notions. For example if I say to you "The Quran does not classify drinking alcohol as "haram"", you or some people may take that to mean "oh, that means you're saying we can drink alcohol and become intoxicated freely!".
But that is not what I said at all.
Background
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/alcohol-is-forbidden.htm -
peace,
The key problem is rather simple, it is our own preconceived notions. For example if I say to you "The Quran does not classify drinking alcohol as "haram"", you or some people may take that to mean "oh, that means you're saying we can drink alcohol and become intoxicated freely!".
) im sorry if u got that impression but i really dont think that if stuff isnt HARAM in the quran then we have free permission to do as we want. the way i see it, traditional views abt why intoxicants seem to be declared HARAM seem to fit in a little in this case for me. i have seen so many young kids as well as adults completely lose it when theyr drunk or when they are addicted to gambling.its just sad. God has anyways put stuff like this into the devils handiworks, so it actually makes sense to NOT indulge in them. coz i really dont see any benefit in wasting countless hours on poker games and then drinking alchohol to ease the pain of losing money )
just to make it clear..i dont believe alchohol and gambling are HARAM in quran. but i dont think they are very much liked by God either and we shud discourage such acts which have the potential to lead us into many more errors than we normally wud get into, just by using our sane mind sun
thankyou all for ur feedback..i will go thru the links once my exams are done with '( -
I don't think anyone encourages becoming intoxicated?
I do. I am wearing t-shirts with pro-alcohol texts everyday, and i deliver lots of flyers with pro-alcohol messages. Wanna drink some beer? Nah, just kidding ;D
Actually if i was going to wear t-shirts with a message about alchohol, maybe it would be an anti-alcohol message like this
Don't be a drinker, be a thinker. lol.
And if i was going to wear t-shirts with a message about cigarettes, maybe it would be an anti-cigarette message like this
Don't be a smoker, be a joker. haha.
I think that if someone needs alcohol to have fun, that person has not learned to enjoy living life how it is supposed to be lived. There are lots of things that are more fun than alcohol, and if you compare alcohol to those things, it would be like comparing corn to bread. If someone could choose between eating corn and eating bread, who would eat corn instead of eating bread? Probably no one. I think spiritual experiences can be more powerful than any alcohol and drug. Lots of studies have been made on consciousness and the state of bliss many people have experienced, which is unbelievable and has had a profound effect on them. I think true bliss can never be achieved through intoxicants. When we know that life itself can be an intoxicant, then why do we still need intoxicants? That would be pointless.
To the dull mind all nature is leaden. To the illumined mind
the whole world burns and sparkles with light.- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Alcohol, as far as I know, intensifies who you are/want to be at your very core.
Well, I Guess then if you want to be Prophet Like....you should drink as much Alcohol as Humanly possible...because (it will intensify your Thirst for Wisdom), Thus bringing you closer to your Goal GOD? confused Oh, but dont do Salaah when your drunk...because that is forbidden.
So I guess the conclusion is Drink as much as you can (to further intensify your Thirst wisdom (of Islam), however NEVER perform Salaah in the Process. laugh
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oh come on now RA786 i dont think thats a valid conclusion..i think wat he means is that alcohol frees u of ur inhibitions..and it does..it makes poets delve deeper into themselves and write compelling stuff and it makes many singers sing from the heart..ironically i know that it makes ppl act like idiots and forget part or whole of the incidents which happen when theyr drunk, which can be VERY dangerous. i know of very few ppl who can control their drinking habit.
all im saying is i have no issues with alcohol itself..my friends drink it..andpractically evryone surrounding me drinks..so its not a cultural issue for me at all..its more a moral thing and i just think it, along with gambling, has a really strong potential to make u fall prey to the devil...and we shud stay away from it.except in medicinal use, which in myopinion is the "benefit" that God refers to in the quran. and i think inthis forum ppl aretaking too lightly the fact that it IS classified as Devil's handiwork, even if it MIGHT not be completely forbidden (i still need need to go through all the links so im refraining from any strong comments on that ) ) thus if it IS one of devils tools then even if it isnt haram we shud stay away from it cozlogic tell me that
if
b=bad
then b(c)=bad.....by b i mean devil and by associating c (drinking etc) with him God is naturally saying its bad toosorry for the weird math example..think im doing too much stats these days )
peace. -
I agree with you rraza. The only point I disagreed with was what you felt free-minds or forum members seemed to promote.
As I said, the problem lies when stating the simple fact "drinking alcohol is not haram", if you say this to most Muslims, they interpret it incorrectly, as I implied before. This is down to preconceived notions, which clouds their thinking. Ironically, they cannot think clearly due to their mind being intoxicated by upbringing! Feel free to try it out.
Let me create how a theoretical conversation could go with someone who reflects and uses their reason...
A drinking alcohol is not haram according to The Quran
B But I thought it was haram according to The Quran?
A No, the word haram is not used.
B What does it say then?
A it says intoxicants are works of shaytan and he or it should be avoided in order to be successful. In them is more harm than benefit, and to not approach the salat/bond intoxicated.
B but the salat/bond is a daily thing is it not?
A yes
B Hmm, so that would limit consumption of intoxicants quite significantly?
A yes
B So, theoretically, we could consume alcohol but not enough to be intoxicated? But even then it should be avoided?
A yes to both.
B The exact word used "avoid", in what way is this word used for other things?
A it is used for many things, such as idol-worship, false statements... etc.
B Hmm, that does sound significant. Is there anything else?
A The Quran says in the drink of grapes wine is made as well as good provision, in this is a sign for those who reason.
B Hmm, like what things would come under good provision?
A Well, alcohol or wine could be used in many things, some medicine, ointments, cooking, food production, disinfectants etc.
B Ahh, so they could still be used for such things, so the substance can be used but not for intoxication?
A Well, that seems to be God's advice. What is your view?
B I wish to be successful in God's path, so, if in intoxicants there is more harm than benefit, we should avoid such things of shaytan, not approach the salat/bond intoxicated, and use our reason upon how we make use of such a resource, then I will use my reason and avoid intoxication and use it for what would come under good provision only.
A God wishes no hardship for us. In this is a mercy, but only for those who reflect and use their reason. -
oh come on now RA786 i dont think thats a valid conclusion..i think wat he means is that alcohol frees u of ur inhibitions..and it does..it makes poets delve deeper into themselves and write compelling stuff and it makes many singers sing from the heart..ironically i know that it makes ppl act like idiots and forget part or whole of the incidents which happen when theyr drunk, which can be VERY dangerous. i know of very few ppl who can control their drinking habit.
all im saying is i have no issues with alcohol itself..my friends drink it..andpractically evryone surrounding me drinks..so its not a cultural issue for me at all..its more a moral thing and i just think it, along with gambling, has a really strong potential to make u fall prey to the devil...and we shud stay away from it.except in medicinal use, which in myopinion is the "benefit" that God refers to in the quran. and i think inthis forum ppl aretaking too lightly the fact that it IS classified as Devil's handiwork, even if it MIGHT not be completely forbidden (i still need need to go through all the links so im refraining from any strong comments on that ) thus if it IS one of devils tools then even if it isnt haram we shud stay away from it cozlogic tell me that
if
b=bad
then b(c)=bad.....by b i mean devil and by associating c (drinking etc) with him God is naturally saying its bad toosorry for the weird math example..think im doing too much stats these days
peace.I was only being Sarcastic brother... laugh
I would not say that Alcohol helps singers sing from the heart. (perhaps Marijuana or other similar types of drugs may do that.)
Alcohol works a little bit different. Alcohol is a substance that makes you forget many things and not care.So if a Singer Drank...then the Singer would not sing any better or from the heart but would only Gain "Care-freeness" from his intoxication.
Example...He would no longer feel shy to sing.However If he had taken Marijuana, that would make more Aware of his surroundings and perhaps bring out more thoughts/suggestions needed to sing.
Therefore it would appear that he would be singing from his heart.Personally, I think we as Humans forget how wonderful we really are Just-As-Is.
alhumdulilah, I have found my Poetry,Art,Theories, etc to be more satisfying and valuable when written Sober (as a Muslim), rather than written Drunk.(before I was Muslim).People are so conditioned to think Low of themselves. Like the Artist who feels he can only Draw when on Acid, or the guy who thinks he can only hold a conversation with a Female if he is drinking....or the Musician who feels dependent on Marijuana.
Meanwhile, I believe ALL of these people can Accomplish ALL OF THIS if they were Sober. It is more challenging...but it is also more rewarding (IMHO).
Man always looks for the Easy way....while the harder way is usually always the more rewarding.sun
Personally I feel better Believing that Alcohol is Forbidden (to me) rather then "Acceptable".
In my eyes, Alcohol is a Disease, a Poison, a Drink that was designed to enslave the society, manipulate/deteriorate minds, and lead to ultimate self-destruction. *perhaps this is a SELF-IMPOSED RULE....
It is to me the Anti-christ/Dajjal Drink that I refuse to touch except in Emergency Situations.To me I see Alcohol like Pork. I will Try my best to NEVER eat it. It is Forbidden to me unless in Emergency situations.
Even If Everyone says its Acceptable, I personally will Always believe it is Forbidden... (to me anyways).
But I do not force my Interpretation or Personal View on Anyone... So everyone else can drink as much as they want...thats their business.
peace -
I agree with you rraza. The only point I disagreed with was what you felt free-minds or forum members seemed to promote.
As I said, the problem lies when stating the simple fact "drinking alcohol is not haram", if you say this to most Muslims, they interpret it incorrectly, as I implied before. This is down to preconceived notions, which clouds their thinking. Ironically, they cannot think clearly due to their mind being intoxicated by upbringing! Feel free to try it out.
Let me create how a theoretical conversation could go with someone who reflects and uses their reason...
A drinking alcohol is not haram according to The Quran
B But I thought it was haram according to The Quran?
A No, the word haram is not used.
B What does it say then?
A it says intoxicants are works of shaytan and he or it should be avoided in order to be successful. In them is more harm than benefit, and to not approach the salat/bond intoxicated.
B but the salat/bond is a daily thing is it not?
A yes
B Hmm, so that would limit consumption of intoxicants quite significantly?
A yes
B So, theoretically, we could consume alcohol but not enough to be intoxicated? But even then it should be avoided?
A yes to both.
B The exact word used "avoid", in what way is this word used for other things?
A it is used for many things, such as idol-worship, false statements... etc.
B Hmm, that does sound significant. Is there anything else?
A The Quran says in the drink of grapes wine is made as well as good provision, in this is a sign for those who reason.
B Hmm, like what things would come under good provision?
A Well, alcohol or wine could be used in many things, some medicine, ointments, cooking, food production, disinfectants etc.
B Ahh, so they could still be used for such things, so the substance can be used but not for intoxication?
A Well, that seems to be God's advice. What is your view?
B I wish to be successful in God's path, so, if in intoxicants there is more harm than benefit, we should avoid such things of shaytan, not approach the salat/bond intoxicated, and use our reason upon how we make use of such a resource, then I will use my reason and avoid intoxication and use it for what would come under good provision only.
A God wishes no hardship for us. In this is a mercy, but only for those who reflect and use their reason.thats a very effective way of dealing with the issue of alcohol consumption in islam. thanks fr clearing it out so well
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People say oh its not a problem, I only drink for social occasions, I'm not an alcoholic my life is fine, but if you use it for social occasions you rely on it regardless of whether you are not as far gone as a raging alcoholic who relies on it
Can you honestly say if you rely on it only for social occasions, and one day you are not able to get some for a social occasion you'd be in a good mood?
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no very few ppl have the strength to not let alchohol and gambling etc take over their lives, even if they just do it occasionally. i agree.
but now it comes down to personal preferance. we are told to avoid it...but its not declared HARAM for the obvious gud in alcohol. i think God reserves the word haram for very serious offences..then comes stuff thats to be avoided..but we wont beas severely punished as we wud if we did something haram..so ithink God has made things easy for us by just saying somethings are definitely a no go zone, then others its best if u avoid it (hinting clearly its not like ) and then neutral..and then things which are liked by God..i think this range that God has given us is beautiful. no human is an angel,we all sin and God makes it clearer for us what he expects out of us by giving us these levels... so if ur really looking for Gods pleasure u wudnt even do the things which are frowned upon and not just avoid those which are haram. if ur a little bit weaker, then ull resort to stuff like alcohol, gambling , numerology.
thats my opinion. i cud be wrong. suggestions are welcome sun
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Peace rraza
Using the intoxicants/alcohol is a sin(2219). And God makes all kind of sins forbidden. Here is the verse
Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know."
Asana
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I want to play around with this Idea of "Avoid" and "Go not near".....
Zina, (a.k.a. Adultery/Fornication/Illicit extra marital relations/Affiar/etc)
"And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way."It does not say "Zina (adultery/fornication)" is "HARAAM" (Forbidden)....it simply uses the words "Avoid or Go Not Near"
So therefore, Are we Allowed to have SOME Sexual Acts with others? For Instance, if Sexual Intercourse is what is to be Avoided, then would Oral Sex with others be alright then?
If we can Drink Alcohol but Limit ourselves from Getting DRUNK. Then can we have Oral sex with Strangers (just as long as we Limit ourselves from having SEX (fornication/Adultery/Zina)?
God didnt use the word HARAAM for the Ayat , Just like HARAAM is not mentioned in the Ayat of Alcohol.
Suspicion.
"O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful."Well, Since HARAAM is not mentioned in the Ayat regarding Suspicion and rather "Avoid" is mentioned....perhaps we are allowed to then have Some Suspicion just like we are allowed to have Some Alcohol.
Remember "Avoid" is used here just like alcohol.
Abominations and Idol Worship.
"Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.""Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness."
Well, Also here the word used is "Avoid"....Not "PROHIBITED/HARAAM/FORBIDDEN. Therefore we are technically Allowed to have some abominations like Idol-worship and False witness, because it is not EXPLICITLY PROHIBITED.
Also Allah used the word HARAAM in this Same Ayat except ONLY in regard to those (livestock) that are specifically prohibited....
While Abominations are bearing false witness are to be "Avoided" however not HARAAM.Conclusion.
*Alcohol, Gambling, Extra marital activity, Shirk, etc...is ALL not HARAAM, but rather should just be "Avoided".Side Note.
I personally dont believe this. I feel this is just trying to make Sin-Fair seeming. I think All of these things are bad and WILL lead to negative Consequences even if they are not labeled HARAAM.Adultery is not labeled "Haraam" yet it carry's a punishment of 100 floggings. (or halved for some)
Suspicion/Spying is not Labeled 'Haraam" yet it too carry's a Physical Punishment.
Shirk (or Idol-worship) /Bearing false witnesses is not labeled Haraam, YET carry's a Hereafter Punishment.Can someone else please elaborate? Is this Post I made some sort of Logical Fallacy?
Peace/Salaam
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Salam,
I have to go with the
alcohol is permittedcamp for some obvious analysis reasons- Nowhere does God forbid alcohol outright (see pig meat, blood, etc. for comparison).
- God informs us that Salat is not to be approached while intoxiacted. This nullifies the
haramargument in its infancy. - God tells us heaven will have rivers of alcohol as well as milk and honey. This again nullifies the
haramargument as no pig or blood or any otherharamelements are made available. - The verse used most to outlaw alcohol speaks of the
deviland that he should be avoided (not the alcohol). - The
ithmargument being presented is not valid as the verse clearly says fihimaIthm( in them is Ithm) and not they are Ithm. Thus, alcohol in itself is notIthmbut may be used in a way that produces theIthm(which is in-line with the previous point that the devil uses these tools against people).
Cleary alcohol is not haram and the only restriction found in the Quran is to avoid making Salat if intoxicated. Other than that, people shoudl be careful from alcohol in general as it is a tool (as well as gambling) that the devil uses to cause people to commit Ithm/wrong.
