why are vices like drinking, gambling not discouraged here?

rraza

same here..i will never inshallah drink alcohol, so i believe for me its forbidden..but were not talking abt personal selves but about wats written in the quran..
ps im a sister

rraza

I agree with you rraza. The only point I disagreed with was what you felt free-minds or forum members seemed to promote.

As I said, the problem lies when stating the simple fact "drinking alcohol is not haram", if you say this to most Muslims, they interpret it incorrectly, as I implied before. This is down to preconceived notions, which clouds their thinking. Ironically, they cannot think clearly due to their mind being intoxicated by upbringing! Feel free to try it out.

Let me create how a theoretical conversation could go with someone who reflects and uses their reason...

A drinking alcohol is not haram according to The Quran
B But I thought it was haram according to The Quran?
A No, the word haram is not used.
B What does it say then?
A it says intoxicants are works of shaytan and he or it should be avoided in order to be successful. In them is more harm than benefit, and to not approach the salat/bond intoxicated.
B but the salat/bond is a daily thing is it not?
A yes
B Hmm, so that would limit consumption of intoxicants quite significantly?
A yes
B So, theoretically, we could consume alcohol but not enough to be intoxicated? But even then it should be avoided?
A yes to both.
B The exact word used "avoid", in what way is this word used for other things?
A it is used for many things, such as idol-worship, false statements... etc.
B Hmm, that does sound significant. Is there anything else?
A The Quran says in the drink of grapes wine is made as well as good provision, in this is a sign for those who reason.
B Hmm, like what things would come under good provision?
A Well, alcohol or wine could be used in many things, some medicine, ointments, cooking, food production, disinfectants etc.
B Ahh, so they could still be used for such things, so the substance can be used but not for intoxication?
A Well, that seems to be God's advice. What is your view?
B I wish to be successful in God's path, so, if in intoxicants there is more harm than benefit, we should avoid such things of shaytan, not approach the salat/bond intoxicated, and use our reason upon how we make use of such a resource, then I will use my reason and avoid intoxication and use it for what would come under good provision only.
A God wishes no hardship for us. In this is a mercy, but only for those who reflect and use their reason.

thats a very effective way of dealing with the issue of alcohol consumption in islam. thanks fr clearing it out so well

AK85

People say oh its not a problem, I only drink for social occasions, I'm not an alcoholic my life is fine, but if you use it for social occasions you rely on it regardless of whether you are not as far gone as a raging alcoholic who relies on it

Can you honestly say if you rely on it only for social occasions, and one day you are not able to get some for a social occasion you'd be in a good mood?

rraza

no very few ppl have the strength to not let alchohol and gambling etc take over their lives, even if they just do it occasionally. i agree.

but now it comes down to personal preferance. we are told to avoid it...but its not declared HARAM for the obvious gud in alcohol. i think God reserves the word haram for very serious offences..then comes stuff thats to be avoided..but we wont beas severely punished as we wud if we did something haram..so ithink God has made things easy for us by just saying somethings are definitely a no go zone, then others its best if u avoid it (hinting clearly its not like ) and then neutral..and then things which are liked by God..i think this range that God has given us is beautiful. no human is an angel,we all sin and God makes it clearer for us what he expects out of us by giving us these levels... so if ur really looking for Gods pleasure u wudnt even do the things which are frowned upon and not just avoid those which are haram. if ur a little bit weaker, then ull resort to stuff like alcohol, gambling , numerology.

thats my opinion. i cud be wrong. suggestions are welcome sun

Asana

Peace rraza

Using the intoxicants/alcohol is a sin(2219). And God makes all kind of sins forbidden. Here is the verse

Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know."

Asana

RA786

I want to play around with this Idea of "Avoid" and "Go not near".....

Zina, (a.k.a. Adultery/Fornication/Illicit extra marital relations/Affiar/etc)
"And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way."

It does not say "Zina (adultery/fornication)" is "HARAAM" (Forbidden)....it simply uses the words "Avoid or Go Not Near"

So therefore, Are we Allowed to have SOME Sexual Acts with others? For Instance, if Sexual Intercourse is what is to be Avoided, then would Oral Sex with others be alright then?

If we can Drink Alcohol but Limit ourselves from Getting DRUNK. Then can we have Oral sex with Strangers (just as long as we Limit ourselves from having SEX (fornication/Adultery/Zina)?

God didnt use the word HARAAM for the Ayat , Just like HARAAM is not mentioned in the Ayat of Alcohol.

Suspicion.
"O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful."

Well, Since HARAAM is not mentioned in the Ayat regarding Suspicion and rather "Avoid" is mentioned....perhaps we are allowed to then have Some Suspicion just like we are allowed to have Some Alcohol.

Remember "Avoid" is used here just like alcohol.

Abominations and Idol Worship.
"Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness."

"Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness."

Well, Also here the word used is "Avoid"....Not "PROHIBITED/HARAAM/FORBIDDEN. Therefore we are technically Allowed to have some abominations like Idol-worship and False witness, because it is not EXPLICITLY PROHIBITED.

Also Allah used the word HARAAM in this Same Ayat except ONLY in regard to those (livestock) that are specifically prohibited....
While Abominations are bearing false witness are to be "Avoided" however not HARAAM.

Conclusion.
*Alcohol, Gambling, Extra marital activity, Shirk, etc...is ALL not HARAAM, but rather should just be "Avoided".

Side Note.
I personally dont believe this. I feel this is just trying to make Sin-Fair seeming. I think All of these things are bad and WILL lead to negative Consequences even if they are not labeled HARAAM.

Adultery is not labeled "Haraam" yet it carry's a punishment of 100 floggings. (or halved for some)
Suspicion/Spying is not Labeled 'Haraam" yet it too carry's a Physical Punishment.
Shirk (or Idol-worship) /Bearing false witnesses is not labeled Haraam, YET carry's a Hereafter Punishment.

Can someone else please elaborate? Is this Post I made some sort of Logical Fallacy?

Peace/Salaam

Asana

Peace RA786

They word for all those actions as being haram is in 733?.It needs to be reflected. The word is ?harrama(forbidden/prohibited)? in that verse for all kind of sins and evil deeds etc.

In 2;219 God uses the word sin as He has used it in 733.

Jack

Salam,

I have to go with the alcohol is permitted camp for some obvious analysis reasons

Nowhere does God forbid alcohol outright (see pig meat, blood, etc. for comparison).
God informs us that Salat is not to be approached while intoxiacted. This nullifies the haram argument in its infancy.
God tells us heaven will have rivers of alcohol as well as milk and honey. This again nullifies the haram argument as no pig or blood or any other haram elements are made available.
The verse used most to outlaw alcohol speaks of the devil and that he should be avoided (not the alcohol).
The ithm argument being presented is not valid as the verse clearly says fihima Ithm ( in them is Ithm) and not they are Ithm. Thus, alcohol in itself is not Ithm but may be used in a way that produces the Ithm (which is in-line with the previous point that the devil uses these tools against people).

Cleary alcohol is not haram and the only restriction found in the Quran is to avoid making Salat if intoxicated. Other than that, people shoudl be careful from alcohol in general as it is a tool (as well as gambling) that the devil uses to cause people to commit Ithm/wrong.

huruf

I think many people suffer from the schematised learning of the religion, haram, halal, and all that. AND i think also that that is not exactly what God wants us to do with the Qur'an. We are told repeatedly to use our minds. And it explains things. I think tht what the Qur'an wants us to do in this question as in many others is that we, consciously, take responsibility of our social and personal action. Alcohol is not something that affects a person exclusively, but that it is a social ill. The Qur'an, I think, wants us to reason and take conscientiously up the task of acting as responsible members of society, that we become conscious of the ills for individuals and society of things like drugs and gambling and, of cours act in consequence. It may not be enough that we obey without reflecting on the matter and understanding what we do. So it is up to us to take charge of not letting that society and individuals are eaten by such distressing evils. Is it haram? Tht is not the question. The question is whether we take up the charg of keeping society and individuals in good moral and physical health.

Salaam

RA786

So are we allowed to do Extra-marital Sexual Activity, Suspicion, Idol-worship, and Bear false witness?

please answer

huruf

By whom?

huruf

I mean "are we allowed by whom?

Mazhar

The things which can be consumed/eaten and drunk-things the bonds of which can be unknotted by the inbuilt system of human beings mostly comprises of two things; produce of Earth and meat. Broad and general principle laid down for permissible and non permissible is this
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/7.157b.gif
And he, the Messenger declares for them permissible/lawful the things which are sanctified/decent and nutritious and declares non permissible/unlawful/restrained for them the things which are indecent and deficiently non-propitious;

And Alcohal/made from the produce of Earth has certainly not been included in Tayebaat.