Ibn Kathir claims two salat and one during night prior to abrogation!
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peace Khalil, all,
Forgive me in advance for being brief, but the content of your above post has been refuted previously. In brief
11114 says "...and adjacent/near parts (plural) of the night"
1778 says "from setting of sun / sunset to darkness of the night, and the quran/reading at dawn"
2238 meaning a "middle prayer" not only has critical flaws, no time-range exists.
This particular topic has been discussed in significant detail on this forum, perhaps over 100 pages, and you have brought nothing new and repeated the same erroneous arguments. Here is a good starting point http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
No wonder traditional commentators struggled to create 5 so-called "prayers" from The Quran, hence the variance.
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peace Khalil, all,
Forgive me in advance for being brief, but the content of your above post has been refuted previously. In brief
11114 says "...and adjacent/near parts (plural) of the night"
1778 says "from setting of sun / sunset to darkness of the night, and the quran/reading at dawn"
2238 meaning a "middle prayer" not only has critical flaws, no time-range exists.
This particular topic has been discussed in significant detail on this forum, perhaps over 100 pages, and you have brought nothing new and repeated the same erroneous arguments. Here is a good starting point http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0
No wonder traditional commentators struggled to create 5 so-called "prayers" from The Quran, hence the variance.
All highlights above are from me.
Peace Wakas,
I think you skipped the first part of the verse 11114 in which the dawn / FAJIR and the dusk / MAGHRIB salaats are prescribed.
11114-And establish prayer at the two ends of the day and at the approach of the night. Indeed, good deeds do away with misdeeds. That is a reminder for those who remember.
And you?re right the latter part of the verse is about the night / ?ISHAA? salaat.1778-Establish prayer at the decline of the sun until the darkness of the night and the Qur'an of dawn. Indeed, the recitation of dawn is ever witnessed.
It says the decline of the sun from its meridian, i.e., after mid-day, NOT ?from setting of sun.? i.e., DULOOK, but not GHUROOB.2238-Maintain with care the prayers and the middle prayer and stand before Allah, devoutly obedient.
And you are right again. In 2238 no time range exists. SALAATULWUSTAA in 2238 is the middle salaat that must be added to the SALAWAAT, right in the middle, i.e., FAJIR+DZUHUR+SALAATULWUSTAA+MAGHRIB+?ISHAA?.Last but not least. Dear Wakes, I know this reasoning of mine has been refuted so many times. That doesn?t mean that I should stand by and not be able to refute the opinions of others. The Qur?aan, cover to cover, is full of repetitious issues and arguments, and SALAAH is one of them. Otherwise the Qur?aan was going to have far less verses than 6346=19x334 verses in it!
And yes, STRUGGLE / JIHAAD is non-stop in ALL the different levels of GOD'S creation, but GOD HAS promissed HIS victory and the end.
Peace,
Khalil -
peace Khalil,
And you?re right the latter part of the verse is about the night / ?ISHAA? salaat.
Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that.
In any case, yes, thanks for sharing your view, as I said, it has been refuted previously, see past discussion. At least you admitted you have no time-range for the so-called "middle prayer". I guess you feel Al Quran wants us to make it up as we please.
Each to their own.
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Peace,
I won't add too much but to say that I agree with Wakas, fully in everything he said in response to kgwithnob. I hate for it to sound like I'm just taking sides, but if I were to respond, I could not have responded better or more impartially.
Godbless,
Anawr -
Peace,
I won't add too much but to say that I agree with Wakas, fully in everything he said in response to kgwithnob. I hate for it to sound like I'm just taking sides, but if I were to respond, I could not have responded better or more impartially.
Godbless,
AnawrDear progod,
You seem to have accepted only 2-salaat times per a 24-hour day and you claim that this opinion of yours is based on the Qur?aan. In the verse 2238 GOD (SWT) commands us to safeguard over the SALAWAAT and/+ the SALAATULWUSTA. My point here is that the word SALAWAAT, which is an Arabic word is not a singular, a dual, but a PLURAL word, i.e., it MUST be considered to be at least THREE or MORE. Based on this logical reasoning your 2-salaat per day does not hold water according to 2238 in the Qur?aan. On the other hand this number for SALAWAAT should be an EVEN number in order to have room for the MIDDLE / WASAT for salaatulWUSTAA to sit right in its middle. In other words, the number of SALAWAAT must be at least FOUR, adding the SALAATULWUSTA, thus AT LEAST 5 salaats per day. This logic comes right out of the Qur?aan, NOT any other source as you claim. I?ve been using this reasoning all along in my previous posts on this and other boards as well. Here, I am using it in combination with my previous posts again; to remove any sorts of doubts claiming that FIVE prayer times per 24-hour day is EXTRA Qur?aanic! Again, according to the Qur?aan we must perform AT LEAST 5 salaats per 24-hour day. Please contemplate 2238 carefully.
Peace,
Khalil -
Dear progod,
. My point here is that the word SALAWAAT, which is an Arabic word is not a singular, a dual, but a PLURAL word, i.e., it MUST be considered to be at least THREE or MORE. Based on this logical reasoning your 2-salaat per day does not hold water according to 2238 in the Qur?aan.
Peace,
KhalilThere are more than '2 salawat' in one's life-time. But, nice try.
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There are more than '2 salawat' in one's life-time. But, nice try.
Please be straightforward and enter from the main entrance, instead. Do not beat around the bush. God's business is far from being diplomatic. Please elaborate on the quote above so everyone including me understands what you really mean.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace,
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God knows that we pray every day. So if he tells up to uphold our prayers, he does not have to use the dual even if there are 2 prayers a day. Again God knows that the total of our prayers will add up to more than just 2 as the days go buy. It's like if I were to say 'pray during sunset' or 'pray during the sunsets'. It makes no difference whether I use the specific number of sunsets that occur in one day as a collective for all sunsets or if I use plural to mean all sunsets. It make no difference they both communicate the same things because you are to do this every day but still one day at a time.
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I think your logic for middle prayer was a bit off. For there to be a middle prayer there has to be an ODD number of prayers, i.e. 3, 5. Why? Because there has to be an even number of prayers before and after for it to be considered in the middle. However, because this is the only place where a middle prayer is even mentioned IF WE CHOOSE TO UNDERSTAND IT THAT WAY, we must consider the stated repetitiveness of the Quran. Since there is no specific prayer mentioned that falls in between the two prayers that ARE specifically mentioned I think it is fair for us to see of the word wustaa has other meanings. And it does.
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Wustaa middle, middling (not being on any particular side), moderate (in between extremes), best.
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The Quran mentions how our prayers are to be moderated/moderate not being subject to jahr (loudness or publicization) or ikhfaat (hiding, through volume or just hiding the fact that one prays)
So you can see what my conclusions are. I hope you have understood how I have seen this matter differnently than how you have.
Godbless,
Anwar -
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There are more than '2 salawat' in one's life-time. But, nice try.
laugh
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Please be straightforward and enter from the main entrance, instead. Do not beat around the bush. God's business is far from being diplomatic. Please elaborate on the quote above so everyone including me understands what you really mean.
Peace,
Khalil
rotfl, You are starting to understand them!Quote from Jack on July 11, 2010, 104609 PM
There are more than '2 salawat' in one's life-time. But, nice try. -
Peace Wakas,
Have you bought the book by any chance?
I was just wondering whether it is discussed in that book the significance of the number 5 for daily ritual prayers?
I mean why 5; if I read from your linkThere were two ordained prayers prior to the Isra' journey. One before the rising of the sun at dawn and the other before sunset in the evening. Qiyam Al-Layl, prayer at night, was a command for the Prophet and his followers for sometime but it was later abrogated for the Ummah. Later, during the Isra' journey, Allah abrogated all of the previous orders for prayer by ordaining five daily prayers, including the prayers of Fajr before sunrise, and `Asr in the late afternoon
The abrogation quoted above may refer to the famous Muhammad+Musa vs. Allah bargaining episode.
But if there's a bit of information as to how the number 5 came up, it'd be interesting IMO.=adley=
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peace adley,
Yes, I have the book. The authors CH Becker and Uri Rubin discuss conflicting reports and timings, formalisation, incorporation of Friday meetings, attempted harmonisation etc.
As far as I recall I do not think they discuss much about "why 5", but they do mention a ton of conflicts with an eventual fixing of 5-ish.I just realised it is interesting in the traditional account of the night journey, they have Muhammad meeting Moses, considering The Quran likely refers to Moses in 171 going by context. Perhaps this is a remnant of the truth.
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The Arabs (al-arabu) are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy, and more likely not to know the limits of what God has sent upon His messenger
997Out of the whole Quran, thousands of verses, this is what you felt was so memorable you had to share it with everyone?
Are you aware that you have mistranslated that verse?
Are you aware that spreading around falsehoods of the Quran is an extreme sin?
446 From amongst the Jews there are those who take the words out of context, and they say, "We hear and disobey, and listen but let not any listen, and shepherd us," in a twisting of their tongues and as a mockery of the system! Had they said, "We hear and obey, and listen, and watch over us," it would have been better for them and more upright; but God has cursed them for their rejection, they do not acknowledge except very little.
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a
baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God
without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a
humiliating retribution.979 Those who slander such of the believers as give themselves freely to (deeds of) charity, as well as such as can find nothing to give except the fruits of their labour,- and throw ridicule on them,- God will throw back their ridicule on them and they shall have a grievous penalty.
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peace adley,
171 is briefly mentioned as the alleged backdrop to the fixing of 5 times. Variations are also discussed here (pdf file)
Western scholarship, on the other hand, has suggested three principal explanations for the fixation of five daily prayers
(1) the five daily prayers are the result of duplications of the evening prayer (into salt al-maghrib and salt al-ish ) and the midday prayer (into salt al-uhr and salt al-ar, cf. Houtsma, Iets, 127-34). This explanation is particularly reinforced by an Islamic tradition on the authority of Abdallh b. al-Abbs (d. 68687-, arguing in the opposite direction, namely that the Prophet himself combined several salts in Medina so as not to overburden his community (cf. Wensinck, salt, 9;
(2) the five daily salts were patterned on the binding duty of five daily prayers observed in Zoroastrianism (Goldziher, Islamisme, 246; cf. Boyce, Zoroastrians, 32-3);
(3) the five daily prayers were most likely chosen as a just median between the three services of the Jewish synagogue and the seven ?hours? observed by Christian monks (cf. Goitein, Prayer, 84-6). For the post qurnic developments, cf. Wensinck, salt, 98; Monnot, salt, 926-30.) -
duluk shams li ghasak layl quran fadjr
here 3 salat , duluk shams mens decline, ghassak layl means night, and fadjrTarafay nahar wa zulufan mna layl
You shall observe the Salat at the ends of the day, and close to the night ( = close , = close in plurial of the night )
Every times talks about 3 salats, we must just get the timing right
Why allah didn't say Aqueem salat in the fadjer than Dhohr than after that ASR than Maghrib than Isha ? if it was that important 5 salats? why there's no verse that say aqeem salat and speak of 5 times
there is always aqueem salat with 2 or three times mentioned , how< bizare when we see the verse of inheritance how detailed it is, or the verse of marriage , as for salay he always mentions 3 phrases , 3 times , we interpret as we wish, but it always 3 sentences
