If Allah is the only Sovereign, why do Muslims accept many sovereigns?
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Salaam,
I have been thinking about this, and would be interested in understanding why as a Muslim you could accept a sovereign upon yourself?
Subjugation is a crime against yourself and your community, to state you are Muslim while accepting you are subject to a state, monarch or religious leader, would be in conflict with the Qur'an, how do you justify this conflict to perceive yourself Muslim?
Just to clarify, Islam is not a religion, its a way of life or Deen, so you can not be Muslim unless you exist in submission to the Deen, meaning live as guided, so Muslim.
Thank you for you input in advance.
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Salaam,
I have been thinking about this, and would be interested in understanding why as a Muslim you could accept a sovereign upon yourself?
Subjugation is a crime against yourself and your community, to state you are Muslim while accepting you are subject to a state, monarch or religious leader, would be in conflict with the Qur'an, how do you justify this conflict to perceive yourself Muslim?
Just to clarify, Islam is not a religion, its a way of life or Deen, so you can not be Muslim unless you exist in submission to the Deen, meaning live as guided, so Muslim.
Thank you for you input in advance.
Peace,
Respect.What exactly are you saying here? Are you saying that a muslim cannot exist in any country, because such country does not go by the Law of The Quran?
Because from what i am seeing here in UK, there is more Islam in London alone then in the entire Middle East. UK is more Islamic then Sudan or Iran or Saudi Arabia. Of course this is just my opinion.Non-muslim queen and other politicians here, who are also non-muslims, allow me to practice Quran as i see it, Thank God.
In the Middle East this would not be the case.
May God gudie us all and keep up the prayers.
Peace. -
Salaam,
In Islam you are held accountable for your actions, you cannot give excuses or justifications, actions demonstrate intent and conviction, however if you give your decision making to another you are no longer the one in control of your actions, they are, this is the meaning of sovereign, they decide you are subject to their decisions, so if Allah can be your only sovereign, how can you accept a state, government or monarch over you.
Further under common law no state, government or monarch can exist, they stand against justice, reason and freedom, you think they allow you to practice being Muslim, how can you be Muslim is you have sovereigns?
Doesn't this exclude you being Muslim, as Allah is the only sovereign?
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004.059
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
PICKTHAL O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.
SHAKIR O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. -
Salaam Ayisha,
so you think the Qur'an is stating a clear and defined contradiction, it states clearly you may have no earthly sovereign of any sort, not even Muhammad can be your sovereign and you believe it states you must have sovereigns to dictate upon you?
This leave open two possibilities, the first the Qur'an is not a clear guide, and calls into question its true authority, or else the Qur'an is not been translated correctly.
Which do you think the more likely, that we can have no earthly sovereign or that we follow every person who demands sovereignty, do you think the Qur'an is not reliable, and the sovereigns are authorised to dominate and subjugate the peoples of the earth?
You want a world held in slavery, you think yourself free but are chained to the powerful's whim and fancy, they extract your efforts usuriously, they wage wanton war around the world in your name, they create famine, pollution and ignorance through your authority, you give them license to commit these crimes, you think this is the guidance of the Qur'an?
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Salam Abdun Nur
No I dont think Quran is stating a clear and defined contradiction. Our ultimate Lord and master is Allah and we should submit to the laws He gives us but we should also be good and decent citizens of the country we live in and abide by those laws, which are not against Allah anyway.
Lets look at some Middle Eastern Islamic countries laws and rules
In some a woman is not allowed out without covering her hair, some her face also and some a woman is not allowed out at all, is that Islamic and abiding by the laws of Allah?
In some of these countries you are killed for your belief if it goes against the main of that country, is that Islamic and abiding by the laws of Allah?
In some you are killed for even eating felafel because the prophet Muhammed did not!Now tell me how one can abide by those laws and rules and still be practicing Islam? and these are Islamic countries.
Now in western non-islamic countries the actual laws are islamic in that one can practice their religion freely, one can worship who the hell they wish and it is not against the law. One can wear what one likes as long as they dont walk about naked or 'indecent'. One cannot kill someone else just because they have a different belief/race/colour. One is not forced to believe anything they dont want to believe. Oe can eat whatever they wish to eat and education is for all, not just men or the rich.
There is NO western country that has any law that is against Islam, there are MANY Islamic countries that have laws against Islam.
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Salaam Ayisha,
the fact they have created a state demonstrates they are not Muslim, as a state is a corporation upon the population, this means they create a fiction (the corporation) to dictate and control the slaves.
I'll state once more for you Islam is not and has never been a religion of any sort.
It is a Deen, and you can only be Muslim, which is a physical reality not wishful thinking, by establishing the systems directed within the Qur'an, of which none are implemented at the present time.
Under common law, which is also known as natural law, sovereignty, states, monarchs, dictators of every sort, who very existence stands against common law, they have to create a legal fiction to maintain their authority, which you support.
The foundation of all Law is common law and comprises of just two fundamental laws.
What you sight as laws within the middle east or else where, are legislation, what is lawful is common law, what is legal is legislation.
You are only bound to legislation if you are registered to a society, and your parents register you at birth, with a certificate of live birth, to the society they live within, you can take yourself off the register as you never signed it your parents signed it on your behalf, but under common law you must be registered to a society, yet no Muslim has established one, a society is not a corporation but a contract of legislation.
Under legislation the western governments function upon usury, they wage war through the labours of the population against humanity, you think this is sanctioned through your religion, of which I have no part?
I will stick to the Deen of Islam, and hold only Allah as my sovereign, as I am only answerable to Allah, and am not answerable to any sovereign or state, only the subjugation of the mind creates the shirk of earthly sovereignty.
You can under common law worship who the hell you wish, I worship nothing, as directed not to, I'm here to serve Allah's creation and my fellow man, consider in that aspect how badly your sovereigns treat humanity around the world, and what poor custodians they are of the earth.
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Salaam Ayisha,
the fact they have created a state demonstrates they are not Muslim, as a state is a corporation upon the population, this means they create a fiction (the corporation) to dictate and control the slaves.
I'll state once more for you Islam is not and has never been a religion of any sort.
It is a Deen, and you can only be Muslim, which is a physical reality not wishful thinking, by establishing the systems directed within the Qur'an, of which none are implemented at the present time.
so what systems are these? are you not calling them systems instead of laws if you are thinking these systems need to be established for Muslims?Under common law, which is also known as natural law, sovereignty, states, monarchs, dictators of every sort, who very existence stands against common law, they have to create a legal fiction to maintain their authority, which you support.
How can you establish a system of any sort without a head/ruler/someone to maintain the law?The foundation of all Law is common law and comprises of just two fundamental laws.
What you sight as laws within the middle east or else where, are legislation, what is lawful is common law, what is legal is legislation.
lawful and legal are the same. Laws are made through legislation. common law is law of the land and is natural law, in most western countries includes Islamic Law or the law of God, ie. though shalt not kill etc etc.You are only bound to legislation if you are registered to a society, and your parents register you at birth, with a certificate of live birth, to the society they live within, you can take yourself off the register as you never signed it your parents signed it on your behalf, but under common law you must be registered to a society, yet no Muslim has established one, a society is not a corporation but a contract of legislation.
One can be bound to the laws of a country they were not registered in at birth, as I am, because I live in a country I was not born in. If I was in the country of birth I would then be bound by those laws which are actually more Islamic than the Islamic country I live in.Under legislation the western governments function upon usury, they wage war through the labours of the population against humanity, you think this is sanctioned through your religion, of which I have no part?
Here in an Islamic country the government function more on usery than a non islamic country but the people canot do or say anything against it, which is why the govt. are rich and the people are poor, in a non-Islamic elected govt. the people have a say in how they are ruled and the government is accountable to those subjects, not so in an Islamic dictatorship.I will stick to the Deen of Islam, and hold only Allah as my sovereign, as I am only answerable to Allah, and am not answerable to any sovereign or state, only the subjugation of the mind creates the shirk of earthly sovereignty.
You can under common law worship who the hell you wish, I worship nothing, as directed not to, I'm here to serve Allah's creation and my fellow man, consider in that aspect how badly your sovereigns treat humanity around the world, and what poor custodians they are of the earth.
Consider how badly the Islamic countries treat humanity and your fellow man around the world and how you separating yourself from that makes you feel you are not part of it.
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Salaam Ayisha,
law is not the same as legislation, you have been misinformed.
I have investigated this at length, what is legal is legislation, and all legislation sits upon common law, what is lawful is common law, they have worked hard to hide common law from the population as it removes all their authority.
Common law is founded on just two laws
Do all you have agreed to do.
Do not encroach on other persons or their property.The four models of the Deen of Islam are very simple.
Allodial ownership (As Allah is the owner of the Earth, so you cannot buy and sell what you do not own)
Common Law (which is the true Law of Allah, and underpins all law, but so few realise it, and make unlawful all states, nations, sovereigns and corporations)
Polycentric community (Which removes all sovereign control within community, as only Allah can be your sovereign)
Human Energy Economic system (As Allah is at war with usury and this system removes money as having value, and makes labour valuable)
You seem to be under a misconception, I do not want Islamic states of any sort, I do not want the lie of democracy and representative voting, I do not want the legislated legal system we all suffer, I do not want to exist outside of the Deen of Islam, I wish to remove all and every religion from the world through reason alone.
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Salaam Ayisha,
law is not the same as legislation, you have been misinformed.
I have investigated this at length, what is legal is legislation, and all legislation sits upon common law, what is lawful is common law, they have worked hard to hide common law from the population as it removes all their authority.
Common law is founded on just two laws
Do all you have agreed to do.
Do not encroach on other persons or their property.The four models of the Deen of Islam are very simple.
Allodial ownership (As Allah is the owner of the Earth, so you cannot buy and sell what you do not own)
Common Law (which is the true Law of Allah, and underpins all law, but so few realise it, and make unlawful all states, nations, sovereigns and corporations)
I dont think I am misinformed but am getting confused here! It is Allah that made us into nations and tribes.You state common law is Allahs Law, what is lawful is common law and legislation is based on common law, and legislation is what is legal. So what the legislated law is based on IS common law (Allahs Law)
Polycentric community (Which removes all sovereign control within community, as only Allah can be your sovereign)
Human Energy Economic system (As Allah is at war with usury and this system removes money as having value, and makes labour valuable)
You seem to be under a misconception, I do not want Islamic states of any sort, I do not want the lie of democracy and representative voting, I do not want the legislated legal system we all suffer, I do not want to exist outside of the Deen of Islam, I wish to remove all and every religion from the world through reason alone.
So you say that legislation (law) is based on common law (Allah's Law) but you dont want to be part of the legal system that is based on that Law at the same time saying you want to exist in the deen of Islam?
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Salaam,
what is lawful is common Law,
What is legal is legislation.
If legislation contradicts Common law is can be removed.
If common law contradicts legislation the legislation has to be removed.
You can not change common law in the same way as legislation as it must comply to the two foundational laws.
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From Wakes
peace Abdun Nur,
I look forward to a detailed article with extensive Quranic references and cross-referencing for your views.
Let us know when you have done this, and post the link here for example.
Thanks.
Dear Abdun Nur,
Considering living in a real world, please do what Wakes asked you above. Enlighten us with your detailed, practical, real world socio-economic and political alternative model system. Just bring it on according to the Qur'aan Alone. And take your time. NO rush at all.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace Abdun Nur )
You have some interesting views. And it would be interesting to read more about your views. However, I recommend backing your view with Quranic verses, because then you will have clear evidence for your views from the Quran. And then more people will more easily accept your views.
Why as a muslim do I, you, and almost everyone else accept to be subject to a state? This is a good question. I think the answers to that question are the following
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Because some muslims do not have the money and resourses to live a self-reliant/self-sustainable lifestyle.
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Because some muslims are busy studying, and are therefore dependent on the system of their country.
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Because some muslims have a wife and children and are depenedent on the system of their country. They have to work to provide for their family.
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Because some muslims believe democracy and other systems in western countries are the best systems (which is false belief).
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Because some muslims are not willing to live like self-reliant communities in rural areas in Asia (Tibet, China, Japan etc.).
The work would be too hard for them. And the change would be too big. -
Because some muslims would rather live in a artifical western country with infrastructure, than living in a natural community in Asia/Africa with very little infrastructure or no infrastructure.
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Because some muslims do not know where their tax money is going, do not know that the money they have in their banks (savings) may be invested in
unethical and immoral things (and they do not know about gold and silver instead). They do not know that they are supporting pollution through buying fuel for their car and other things made by oil. They do not know that they are supporting modern day slavery and child labour by buying clothes made in
certain countries. They don't know about corrupt corporations that have strong influence on the lives of people. And lots of other things. The appearance of things in our life can seem very beautiful. But behind the masks, there are often ugly monsters. When people don't know what is behind the masks, they will not care about starting a new society, or starting a new community. Let's say a boss in a store, treats his employers with high respect. He is a well respected boss, and every employer thinks he is the best boss they ever had. So in front of his employers the boss looks like a moral and just human being. But what the employers don't know is that behind the curtains, the boss is like a snake. He is immoral and unethical. The money the boss gets goes to illegal things, the boss treats his family badly, and the boss rob people in the streets. If a man believed that his boss was the best boss he ever had, and he enjoyed the tasks his boss gave him, the big salary his boss gave him, and he appreciated the kindness and understanding of the boss, he would most likely not quit on his job. He would continue working for his boss. But if the man knew the truth about his boss, he would most likely quit his job. So if most muslims knew about the flaws of the societies they lived in, they would probably want to escape from the societies, or create new ones. -
Because some muslims think they are lucky, and destiny has given them this great gift. The gift of living in the west. They are content with what they have, and are thankful. Being thankful is good. They should be thankful. However, what the state/government has given them is not for free. They may think that they are lucky and privileged indivuals. They may think What a great country. The government gives us everything we want. But the truth is that the government/state has given people the freedom, and all the things they are enjoying because they want them to support the existing system. They want the people to give them something back. They want the tax money of people. In the past, the kings used to tax the people, now the governments tax the people. The governments want the people to work for them and keep the capitalistic system spinning We give you everything you need as long as you work for us. These muslims don't know that when somebody gives you something, they have to pay a price for it. No great things, or things worth having are for free. People should "Despise the free lunch". They should despise the free lunch, because the free lunch is often the worst
lunch.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
I want to mention some things that I think are relevant to this thread. As we know, the boundaries of nations are man-made. From history we know that every 100-500 years, people occupy a place and call it their country. They make a flag and tell people that this country belongs to them. Iran and sweden belonged to persians and vikings in the past. And in the future, these countries will most likely get new names and increase or decrease their territories. And other people would occupu those countries. Humanity is one. There are no boundaries on the moon on mars or on the stars. And there are absolutely no boundaries on the earth. All the boundaries we see today are man-made. The boundaries were not here in the beginning. Mankind gradually started to create all boundaries. The earth is only one, but people try to divide it into my land and your land. The earth belongs to the one who has created it. The earth belongs to God. It don't belongs to iranians, swedish, british people or any other people.
In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own
minds and then beleive them to be true.- Buddha
What are the solutions for muslims. What can muslims do if they don't want to be subject to a state?
Here are 3 things muslims can do- Move to a mountain, live like a mountain man. Not recommended.
- Move to a community that are having a sustainable way of life.
- Start a Quranic community, create a new society based on the Quranic system.
If you are interested in the third option, you may be interested in reading posts on the forum about Quranic community in this forum.
The third option is most likely the best option. However, it will be hard to create such a community. It may take 20-40 years.I recommend the posts in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599737.msg236312#msg236312
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Salaam Wakas,
if there existed a decent translation based on classical Arabic I would use it, but one does not exist, the translations are so filled with miss-translations they are too unreliable, please feel free to explain why Allah is not the only sovereign, why Allah is not the owner of the Earth and all upon it, why Allah allows sovereigns to dictate the actions of the population, why a state is sanctioned within the Qur'an, and I will have a look, but a great deal of confusion is invested in the many translations, even the rules of grammar still need to be established correctly.
I have detailed explanations of the four Islamic models of society.
It is difficult for people to consider the correct models when they have never experienced or witnessed them in the real world, but all these models have existed in the ancient past and functioned without fault for thousands of years in various locations, it was not the failure of the models but the wanton war of the Roman Catholic church that destroyed these models most recently.
Please Wakas explain why you wish to apply the Qur'an in isolation when it directs you to observe this reality and apply it to the understanding of the Qur'an?
Salaam Khalil,
such an arrogant individual, you have never read the explanation of the four models yet judge them out of hand as if you were a great mind who had all the answers, even before you had the question.
Salaam David_K,
thank you for such a thoughtful post, your list of excuses for people not to establish the Qur'anic models is interesting, but as the establishing, or attempting to establish the Qur'anic models is what makes you a Muslim, it precludes them from being Muslim wouldn't you say.
The problem with people is they are in two states, fear and ignorance, in combination precluding them from being Muslim, it makes them arrogant, which is the result of ignorance, and subjugated which is the result of fear.
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Salaam Khalil,
such an arrogant individual, you have never read the explanation of the four models yet judge them out of hand as if you were a great mind who had all the answers, even before you had the question.
I thank GOD that someone like you is calling me arrogant!
Dear Abdun Nur,
Here is my 2nd two cents worth, for the 2nd time.
I think you are either living in a state of fantasy or trying in an unsuccessful attempt to forgo the reality of being a responsible and committed Muslim and like multitudes of other ?Muslims?, just running your mouth, or better to say, your computer keyboard, to satisfy your delusional ego in a fancy way of wording your quite exotic and out of this world ?thoughts.?
To let you know. This is a real world we are all living in and the reality of laws of PHYSICS as a SCIENCE come out of this very REAL WORLD too. You don?t believe me, just hit your head against the wall very hard and let us know if it hurts or not.
How in the world you, on one hand, claim to be following the Qur?aan and believing in ALLAAH (swt), and on the other hand, rule out the very first article of faith in Islam by saying ?there is no GOD?? Or maybe you are one of those who say they accept the DEEN, but don?t believe in any RELIGION! In that case you may, just like them, not know that the word RELIGION in English language is the equivalent of the word DEEN in Arabic, the language of the Qur?aan. Maybe you?re trying to innovate or create deception regarding the meaning of the real and everyday utilized and well-known WORDS? Hope you?re not trying to REINVENT the wheel. So many have tried it before, but so far their efforts have been swept into the dust pan of history!
BTW, the word GOD in English is the equivalent of ALLAAH in Arabic!
Anyways, I do recommend that you and others like you stop your nonstop PHILOSPHIZING of the surrounding REAL world. Just snap out of your fantasies and smell the roses of life REALITIES. Start ACTING. STOP the daydreaming of the lifelong LIP service. Harness your larger than life EGO. Repent. Ask for forgiveness from ALLAAH (swt), the ONE you claim you believe in. Follow his commandments in the Qur?aan, the book you claim you believe in. Try to make a difference in your everyday life towards the betterment of the lives of your fellow humans and the society in which you interact 24/7.
The Qur?aan is the book of GUIDANCE for all humanity. It is fully detailed, easy to understand. Remember! It was sent to a nation that most of its people were uneducated, illiterate, and ignorant at the time. Do not try to PHILOSOPHIZE it or render it EXOTIC and out of REACH. Just try to understand it at its face value, and ask GOD / ALLAAH (swt) to guide you in His light and increases your knowledge.
I?ve been blunt, but not rude. Have nothing personal, and in the words of the preacher, ?not a sermon, just a thought.?
Last, but not least, HUMILITY is a VIRTUE too.
Peace,
Khalil -
Peace Abdun Nur,
Simply because you are using internet, then you are part of this system you are pretending to be against. Allow me please to explain myself
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You are using a computer that is a highly complex machine, this machine wouldn't exist without the many fields of science that cooperated to bring it to existance, in an organized and strict respect of the laws of nature.
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Your electric power and you internet connection are provided by some very complex netwoks of power and data that cannot exist without some organisation at large scales.
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Just for these material goods, you have to use some sort of money to pay for using them, which bring you again to be part of an agreed on system.
So you can see that even if You don't want it, but you are part of a system and under some laws/legislations to benefit from the above mentionned goods. Would you stop using such tools?
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