Fundametal Model(by servant of light) is it possible?
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In simple terms, the first Islamic state established in Medina was based on a social contract, was constitutional in character and the ruler ruled with the explicit written consent of all the citizens of the state. Today we need to emulate Muhammad peace is upon him and draw up our own constitutions, historically and temporally specific to our conditions and based on the eternal and transcendent principles revealed by Allah. We can use the compact of Medina as an example of how to develop manuals from principles.
The charter of Madina is in written form, an a proof for what I am saying
Point # 16 says Those Jews who follow the Believers will be helped and will be treated with equality. (Social, legal and economic equality is promised to all loyal citizens of the State).
Point # 25 No un-Believer will be permitted to take the property of the Quraysh (the enemy) under his protection. Enemy property must be surrendered to the State.
I am beyond help but you need immediate help.
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Salaam,
it is a difficult thing to establish what system was used during the life time of the messenger, but for certain there was no sovereign, as even the messenger himself was not to be taken as a sovereign as detailed within the Qur'an, further taxation is against not only common law but common sense, it is the most defined and clear form of Riba or usury that can be inflicted upon humanity.
If the charter of Medina does indeed present a model, with both a sovereign and taxation it is directly against the guidance of the Qur'an, this means as a document it must be a fiction, manufactured to allow the subjugating elite to enslave the population once more.
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The compact of Medina provides an excellent historical example of two theoretical constructs that have shaped contemporary political theory and should therefore be of great value to those scholars who are involved in the theorizing of the Islamic state. Political theory relies heavily on the ideas of a social contract and a constitution. A social contract, made famous by the French philosopher Rousseau is an imaginary agreement between people in the state of nature that leads to the establishment of a community or a state. In the state of nature people are free and are not obliged to follow any rules or laws. They are essentially sovereign individuals. But through the social contract they surrender their individual sovereignty to the collective and create the state. This state then acts as an agent of the sovereign people, exercising the sovereignty that has been delegated to it by the people through the social contract in order to realize the wishes of the people enshrined in the objectives of the social contract.
Barrowed from Dr. Muqtedar Khan.
The second idea that underpins contemporary political theory is the concept of the constitution. In many ways the constitution is the document that enshrines the conditions of the social contract upon which any society is founded. The writing of a constitution is a very old idea. Aristotle himself had collected over 300 written constitutions in his lifetime. The compact of Medina clearly served a constitutional function since it was the constitutive document for the first Islamic state.
Thus we can argue that the compact of Medina serves the dual function of a social contract and a constitution.
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Salaam Raaajah,
I get the impression you have never read the four conceptual models I have posted, which is a strange way to disagree with a point of view, you start by not considering the view you think you are in disagreement with.
I clearly state the very first stage of establishing an Islamic community is the drafting and signing of a contract. As under common law you have to be contractually obligated within the community.
As for agreeing about a contract 14 centuries ago being in it original form, that stands in opposition within it contents to the guidance within the Qur'an, I can not, you should read the essays before writing rubbish that is not relevant, the contract is clearly presented under the concept of a constitution, read before writing!
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Abdun Nur
it is a difficult thing to establish what system was used during the life time of the messenger
But it is easy to esatblish the system in life of time of Offa? How?
Abdun nur
but for certain there was no sovereign, as even the messenger himself was not to be taken as a sovereign as detailed within the Qur'an
Certainly he was sovereign as Allah had given him power of Attorney for certain time detailed within Quranic ayats.
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Salaam Raaajah,
I get the impression you have never read the four conceptual models I have posted, which is a strange way to disagree with a point of view, you start by not considering the view you think you are in disagreement with.
I clearly state the very first stage of establishing an Islamic community is the drafting and signing of a contract. As under common law you have to be contractually obligated within the community.
And your impression is totally wrong and you are the one who is talking rubbish, The difference between your Model and Islamic Model is a STATE which has authority over its citizens provided by the citizens itself, The STATE can levy TAX, Can buy property and confiscate the property and so on, Muhammad Was the Soveriegn appointed by Allah and agreed upon by Jews, Muslims and other citizens.
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Salaam,
you are propagating slavery, for what reason I can not say, but it seems a pointless business in answering your groundless statements, you have made no effort to read the model presented and to consider it with a clean and clear mind, instead you have not read the models, further refuse to read the models and continue to propagate confusion and misunderstanding.
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Abdu Nur
Salaam,
you are propagating slavery, for what reason I can not say, but it seems a pointless business in answering your groundless statements, you have made no effort to read the model presented and to consider it with a clean and clear mind, instead you have not read the models, further refuse to read the models and continue to propagate confusion and misunderstanding.
My only concern is not label this Roman Catholic Model of Britain as Islamic and Quranic.
I have shown you What an Islamic Model was in practical situation, may be your Model of Bakunin be much better than that but SORRY it is not Quranic and Islamic, Just to pick up a verse from Quran based whole System on it is not justifiable. -
Salaam,
now you are propagating lies, why?
Nothing I have expressed is Roman Catholic, in fact what you are presenting, sovereign state, based upon corporations, standing in opposition to common law, is the Roman Catholic model.
So you have established yourself as a Liar.
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Abdun nur
Nothing I have expressed is Roman Catholic, in fact what you are presenting, sovereign state, based upon corporations, standing in opposition to common law, is the Roman Catholic model.
Oh! From where did you get this model? from Mercian state of Offa? In your article you don't stop praising Offa, and I showed you he was puppet of the Pope.
So who is the Liar?
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Salaam,
clearly you.
Offa was not a Roman Catholic, not that is of relevance to the models presented, and does not make the models even slightly Roman catholic, you seem a bitter little man, who attacks things without thought or knowledge, I will not waste my time further responding to you utter rubbish.
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Abdun Nur
Salaam,
clearly you.
Offa was not a Roman Catholic,
But History says IT IS YOU
Firstly, he anointed his son in a Christian ceremony as his heir. He was the first English King to have done so (see Sir Frank Stenton, Anglo-Saxon England, Clarendon Press, Oxford 1943, pp. 218-219).
The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle states
A.D. 785 (actually, 787). This year died Bothwin, Abbot of Ripon, and a
litigious synod was holden at Chalk-hythe; Archbishop Eanbert
resigned some part of his bishopric, Hibbert was appointed bishop
by King Offa, and Everth was consecrated king. In the meantime
legates were sent from Rome to England by Pope Adrian, to renew
the blessings of faith and peace which St. Gregory sent us by the
mission of Bishop Augustine, and they were received with every
mark of honour and respect.But I will not call you a LIAR in frustartion as you did, you even called me a ROAMN catholic at some stage, I feel sorry for YOU dear NUR.
Just relax and take it easy. It is nothing personal. Even Still if you presist than I can say only
Allah Ho Akbar. -
The evidence does not support Offa a Christian like possibly yourself, even if his son was, which I'm dubious about, you would have to demonstrate your evidence to support you lie that the models of community I have presented are Roman Catholic, and prove you are not a lier. But as I said it is pointless to discuss things with a person who refuses to apply any reason.
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Abdun Nur
The evidence does not support Offa a Christian like possibly yourself, even if his son was, which I'm dubious about, you would have to demonstrate your evidence to support you lie that the models of community I have presented are Roman Catholic, and prove you are not a lier
I have already presented sufficient evidences for Offa being a Christian and admirer of Pope, sending him the looted money of people as gifts. It is you who in due to his ego does not read what is posted, and not presented any thing which can support your claim that he was not a christian.
Celtic Christianity owed as much to Eastern, especially Coptic Christianity as it did to Rome. By contrast, after the English were converted to Orthodoxy in the seventh century, they became perhaps the most fervent ?Romanists? of all the peoples of Western Europe. (The fall of Orthodox England)
English missionaries such as St. Boniface of Germany carried out their work as the legates of the Roman Popes. And the voluntary tax known as ?Peter?s Pence? which the English offered to the Roman see was paid even in the difficult times of the Viking invasions, when it was the English themselves who were in need of alms.Abdun Nur
I have never heard of your Jewish sounding references, if you wish to promote these Jewish concepts feel free but don't apply non-sense upon anything I have expressed,
Offcourse you had, but for those who have not, I will give a brief view
Property Systems
Property is a relationship between people regarding a scarce good. Denying the validity of the State, Bakunin considers all property as allodial. The following property qualification types address who may hold property and how can it be transferred to a new owner.Who May Own
pure property - anyone or any group may own
community property - the community collectively is permanent non-transferrable owner
corporate property - only certain collectives or types of collectives may own
caste property - only certain types of people may ownHow Transerred
contract property - owner retains ownership until he agrees to alienate
possession property - owner loses ownership upon non-use or abandonment -
Further on do whom AbDun Nur follows but is not willing to accept
Mikhail Alexandrovich Bakunin (30 May 1814 - 1 July 1876) was a well-known Russian revolutionary and theorist of collectivist anarchism.
Bakunin?s political beliefs rejected governing systems in every name and shape, from the idea of God downwards, and every form of external authority, whether emanating from the will of a sovereign or from universal suffrage.
He said
The liberty of man consists solely in this, that he obeys the laws of nature because he has himself recognized them as such, and not because they have been imposed upon him externally by any foreign will whatsoever, human or divine, collective or individual.Emma Gold Man said this
Anarchism, then, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government. Anarchism stands for a social order based on the free grouping of individuals for the purpose of producing real social wealth; an order that will guarantee to every human being free access to the earth and full enjoyment of the necessities of life, according to individual desires, tastes, and inclinations.When you study these Philosphers closely, It is quite obvious that there thoughts have been barrowed by Abdun Nur with slight changes, for example including the name of Allah and Quran in this system.
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Salaam all,
if anyone is seriously interested in discussing the Islamic community model further, or would be interested in attending the lecture in St. Annes near Blackpool, at New Horizons on the 12th July 2010, detail on the link below, as at the moment the world is a constrictive prison planet, economic slavery in the western countries and worse around the third world through the insanity of government corporate structure, we must apply common law and free ourselves through the Islamic community model, and live in a place of growth and development.
Freedom is not the easy path, due to the ignorance and complicity of truly subjugated minds defending and protecting their enslavement, and maintaining the enslavement of those around them.
http//www.newhorizonsstannes.com/
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When you study these Philosphers closely, It is quite obvious that there thoughts have been barrowed by Abdun Nur with slight changes, for example including the name of Allah and Quran in this system.
Dear Raaajah,
You say that the thoughts of Abdun Nur has been borrowed from bakunin and goldman. Well, some of my Ideas are similar to the ideas in the models of Abdun Nur. And I have not studied bakunin or goldman. So if we go by that logic, a person like me must have studied goldman and bakunin. But i have not. So what is your evidence for your claim? Or are you only guessing? I hope not. As you know, the quran tells us to not follow guesswork.
"Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted ...but to weigh and consider."
- Francis Bacon
In life, it is not either anarchy or government. We should see the world beyound black and white. There are not just two ways to choose between. There are other ways as well. Think about it.
I think it is good that you are critical of the models. We have to be critical if we want to know if an idea is practical or realistic. So I give you credit for your constructive critism.
Raaajah, maybe I am wrong, but from what I read, it seems you have said very little good things about the ideas in the models he has written. I think when we analyze an ideas we should both say what we think is positive and what we think is negative about those ideas. We should not only point out what we think is negative.
And when it comes to democracy, it is not fair that one or two political parties should decide for millions of people. It is a shame that we have to choose between right and left parties. The biggest partiest use lots of advertisising and propaganda to fool the people They also make lots promises. But later they often break their promises. And some people might think politician are higly moral beings that wants the best for their people. But the fact is that most politicians only want what is best for their self-interest. They don't care about what the people need, they care about their own selfish agendas. If you have studied psychology, you can see that every politician lies. You can see it from their body language and hear it from their vocal tone. This is a fact.
Personally I am not against a sovereign/leader making decisions for people if he is moral and righteous. For example, Cyrus the great, was a rightoeus emperor. Or David and Solomon were righteous leaders. Here is what the Quran tells us about good leaders
Quran 3224
And We made from them leaders who guided in accordance with Our commandment, for they were patient and had certainty regarding Our revelations.Quran 2173
And We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good works and hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification, and they were in service to Us.However, what are the chances of having such leaders in the world today? And what are the chances that the current politicians would accept such leaders? Such leaders would not have been accepted. It would be against all odds.
As you know, many politicians and current leaders in the world start wars and exploit human beings Here is what the quran tell us about corrupt leaders
Quran 3367
And they will say Our Lord, we have obeyed our leaders and our learned ones, but they misled us from the path.I believe that in an ideal society people would not need any leader or government. In an ideal society everyone would participate in political decisisions and everyone would decide. But since we do not live in an ideal society, I believe the right type of democracy is not uncompatible with islam, and therefore can be accepted and implemented. But the democracies and governments we have today have too many flaws. For example the laws of many goverments limit people and are complex and impractical. Instead of creating simple and practical laws, they create endless impractical laws. Many of the laws many governments create, are laws are also absolutely uneccesary. And bureocracies in democratic can often be ineffective and corrupt. In a democracy, the majority choose which political party they want. And after the majority has voted, and the political party they want has won the election, then the majority does not decide anymore. Now a minority of politicians will decide over the majority. Think about it.
I believe the right type of democracy is compatible with islam. But I believe there exists better systems than democracy, and that a society can function without a government. Democracy is not the best system we have. So therefore, the most optimal thing to do would be to implement another system than democracy. By the way, if you wish to read my views about the right type of democracy, I recommend a post in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600169.msg249237#msg249237
In democratic countries, many corporations are corrupt. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that you have not agreed with Abdun Nur's view on corporations. If you want to know about the real nature of corporations, I recommend this documentary below. Watch part 1-23
The Corporation
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pin8fbdGV9Y
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David-K
Dear Raaajah,
You say that the thoughts of Abdun Nur has been borrowed from bakunin and goldman. Well, some of my Ideas are similar to the ideas in the models of Abdun Nur. And I have not studied bakunin or goldman. So if we go by that logic, a person like me must have studied goldman and bakunin. But i have not. So what is your evidence for your claim? Or are you only guessing? I hope not. As you know, the quran tells us to not follow guesswork.
Dear David-K
It is always nice conversating with you. You are a cool customer.
If some one has done extensive research on Allodial system and has not gone through the works of above mentioned, is out of question, You did not reaserched extensively on this particular subject and never brought forwarded any model, it is only few thoughts that came to your mind, your case is very different from Abdun Nur's. He claims wrong things than insists on them and if some one points out he labels them as Non Muslims, Slaves and Blah Blah.David _k
I think it is good that you are critical of the models. We have to be critical if we want to know if an idea is practical or realistic. So I give you credit for your constructive critism.
Raaajah, maybe I am wrong, but from what I read, it seems you have said very little good things about the ideas in the models he has written. I think when we analyze an ideas we should both say what we think is positive and what we think is negative about those ideas. We should not only point out what we think is negative.Point taken but he never allowed me to discuss the positive things of the model. We were arguing at the very basics. I think this model is not Islamic and Quranic Model, where as Abdun Nur insists that it is Islamic Model.
Thanks for your constructive input. -
Dear David-K
It is always nice conversating with you. You are a cool customer.Peace Raaajah.
You are a nice person too )