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http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_cup
http//www.google.com.pk/images?hl=en&q=menstrual+cup&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=gAUmTNeFLY7w0wSEiYDGBA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQsAQwAwAhhh ok, similar to the 'cap' method of birth control. No good for me after spending a rather frustrating day chasing it around the bathroom
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peace ak85, all,
You may wish to re-consider and/or specify your usage of "clean". The way in which it is used by some implies women are unclean during this time, and whilst this may be a plausible interpretation, it is not the most probable imho. The subject is menstruation, sexual approach of that area, and it ends with the masculine plural of THR. Not to mention the other meanings of THR.
A seemingly small point but perhaps significant in its influence, as you may know that Traditional Muslims argue that since they/women are unclean during menses, they should not pray etc etc.In a post on facebook I attempted to logically smash this traditional argument, with the following, perhaps you/others will find it interesting. Re-worded
The whole reason for ablution is not to become tahir (~clean), because if it was, then why allow one to uphold salat/bond when obviously unclean when using dry soil (albeit, this is an exception). One could easily argue that being in this state is more unclean than a women in menses, yet upholding of salat/bond is allowed. Thus, let us consider the logic.
The Quran clearly allows upholding the salat/bond in such a condition under exceptions. Thus, according to traditional argument, we are to regard menses more "dirty/impure/unclean" than post-sex/orgasm/poo without washing. This is what I am trying to highlight.Therefore, the only logical outcome left for the traditional argument is to admit being in menses is more unclean than post-sex/orgasm/poo without washing.
Of course, the person I was discussing with (happened to be female) never conceded this, as I'm sure it is too nonsensical for them to stomach or be seen admitting to. In any case, it does not refute their argument, but serves to highlight the absurdity of their position. Try it.
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What I said above IS what some men do when women have their monthly GOD GIVEN menstruation. Without women menstruating there will be NO babies, NO new life and humanity would have ended with Adam and Eve. it is a completely natural thing, it is not dirty, women are not dirty to touch or be near when menstruating, it is not an illness, it is natural. Do not approach them does not mean do not be near them, you wont catch anything nasty from them, it means do not have sex with them at that time. It has already been seen that the majority do not allow women to pray at this time and take from that that even God does not want to have anything to do with them. Some will not eat with or be in the same room as a menstruating women so what I said is not completely sarcasm, it is a fact and does happen. Where I am living they are told that if a man has sex with a menstruating woman he will DIE from this. I am totally serious here, they are told all sorts and this is an Islamic country. Men go to the doctors if the wife happens to start bleeding during sex as they think their penis will shrivel up and drop off!
In the animal world it is the opposite. When a female animal is menstruating is the time for mating and that is the only time she will get pregnant. A female human cannot get pregnant if she has sex during menstruation but it will not kill a man or make his penis drop off or give him some incurable illness. A woman does not WANT to be bothered with sex while she is menstruating but can be highly sexual a few days before this BUT can also be highly sensitive and crouchy too. Normally once the period starts she is less crouchy but some can be in pain while menstruating and she is likely to still be sensitive and NEEDS love (not sex).
If you look at how women should be treated by their menfolk throughout the rest of Quran it makes no sense to not be anywhere near them during this time and makes more sense to be sensitive to them and their sensitivity and to show them kindness and love, not shun them as something dirty.
This is NOT feminine view point, but exact perception of that which has been told through the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam.
The period of Menstruation has neither been declared as filthy, impure, dirty, nor illness. What has been declared, and which is the last word having been stating by none but the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, is this
You, the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam pronounce;
"That/he- is a little vexation".
Subject/Topic- Third Person; Masculine; Singular.
Predicate/Comment- ;I don't know what made Pickthall to call it "illness" conveniently ignoring that it is described something different from "illness" in 2196 where it occurred for the first time; and in 4102. This is such a thing which can be caused to others by just oral statement-3186.
And similarly I don't know what made Yusuf Ali to call it "pollution". It is told that while in the assembly of Salat in open battlefield one can feel it because of rain-4102. And in 3378 he sensibly translated this word as "annoyance".goes back/relates to earlier imperative verb. There, in consideration the period being, generally-indefinite noun reflects this, annoying, little uncomfort, vexation, husbands are directed to consciously incline themselves with regard to the object of verb-wives to refrain sexual intercourse and then the time period during which they have to excercise this sort of getting nearer is to be avoided, i.e. till they drain/remove away the .
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Peace AK
Sometimes it is necessary to make you see where your excessive thorough questioning of minute detail without what appears to be thought will lead to and DOES lead to.
AK, really really I do not mean to be rude towards you and it is clear as crystal you are trying very hard to understand every detail and word in the Book, and that is wonderful, but sometimes it seems you have a jigsaw in front of you and you are picking up each piece and thoroughly examining it without looking at the bigger picture as a guide. Even in my post now I feel you will pick it apart and take it as offensive and it really is not meant to be.
What I said above IS what some men do when women have their monthly GOD GIVEN menstruation. Without women menstruating there will be NO babies, NO new life and humanity would have ended with Adam and Eve. it is a completely natural thing, it is not dirty, women are not dirty to touch or be near when menstruating, it is not an illness, it is natural. Do not approach them does not mean do not be near them, you wont catch anything nasty from them, it means do not have sex with them at that time. It has already been seen that the majority do not allow women to pray at this time and take from that that even God does not want to have anything to do with them. Some will not eat with or be in the same room as a menstruating women so what I said is not completely sarcasm, it is a fact and does happen. Where I am living they are told that if a man has sex with a menstruating woman he will DIE from this. I am totally serious here, they are told all sorts and this is an Islamic country. Men go to the doctors if the wife happens to start bleeding during sex as they think their penis will shrivel up and drop off!
In the animal world it is the opposite. When a female animal is menstruating is the time for mating and that is the only time she will get pregnant. A female human cannot get pregnant if she has sex during menstruation but it will not kill a man or make his penis drop off or give him some incurable illness. A woman does not WANT to be bothered with sex while she is menstruating but can be highly sexual a few days before this BUT can also be highly sensitive and crouchy too. Normally once the period starts she is less crouchy but some can be in pain while menstruating and she is likely to still be sensitive and NEEDS love (not sex).
If you look at how women should be treated by their menfolk throughout the rest of Quran it makes no sense to not be anywhere near them during this time and makes more sense to be sensitive to them and their sensitivity and to show them kindness and love, not shun them as something dirty.
I apologize if you have taken offense at my post, it really is not meant to be offensive to you or to anyone else. I do not know you or your circumstances or how you were raised or what you know, and I think it best to clear up what to so many men is a mystery and if there are any here who may be reading who have been told this will kill a man or make him sick I hope this has explained better for them too. You only have to look at some of the ridiculous fatwa that come about due to mans lack of education concerning a womans body and the natural courses it goes through.
Peace
lol no, I am not from a traditional background at all. I don't believe in stuff like "women are impure in every imaginable way when they are menstruating do not go near them period." In my first misunderstanding, I just thought maybe we should leave them alone not lock them up or anything, but like I said now with my improved understanding, I've realized that this is not only not necessary but might make the woman even more resentful, us men should just accept it as a fact of life and try to put up with, just like we would put up with a miserable person going through any other kind of sickness
Also, I know very well a guy's penis will not drop etc. if he has sex with a woman while she is menstruating. I'm not from a traditional background so I'm familiar with things like "taking the dirt road" rofl or just having sex with her while she's "on her rag" anyway and nothing happening...as far as a penis falling off is concerned, I can't comment on what happens when the bodily fluids that mix include menstrual blood going into the male as opposed to what would normally mix (assuming the sex is without a condom)
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peace
Menstruation is not a sickness! http//img337.imageshack.us/img337/3135/iconconfused.gif
peace
lol yeah I had a feeling that was wrong, what I meant was a "hurt"/injury/mild harm such as the translations suggest
in comparison to a verified sickness which may make people similarly miserable
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Peace
Thank you for the link. I have been made aware that there are other threads about this verse, but my question had to do with what I initially perceived as two pieces of legislation, a subject which was not the topic of the other threads.
The change of subject in this thread from the understanding of two pieces of legislation had to do with my changed understanding. And a point Ayisha thought was necessary to be addressed in this thread.
Peace
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peace ak85, all,
You may wish to re-consider and/or specify your usage of "clean". The way in which it is used by some implies women are unclean during this time, and whilst this may be a plausible interpretation, it is not the most probable imho. The subject is menstruation, sexual approach of that area, and it ends with the masculine plural of THR. Not to mention the other meanings of THR.
A seemingly small point but perhaps significant in its influence, as you may know that Traditional Muslims argue that since they/women are unclean during menses, they should not pray etc etc.In a post on facebook I attempted to logically smash this traditional argument, with the following, perhaps you/others will find it interesting. Re-worded
Of course, the person I was discussing with (happened to be female) never conceded this, as I'm sure it is too nonsensical for them to stomach or be seen admitting to. In any case, it does not refute their argument, but serves to highlight the absurdity of their position. Try it.
Peace
Doesn't it say too, this is done to "purify" you (wudu/ablution) which is different from clean, same as the verse which says "Only the pure can grasp it."
I mean I'm not saying you can't grasp the Qu'ran if you take a mudbath, but if you are a proud mass murdering thieving rapist who just took a conventional bath you are not "pure" enough to grasp it either despite your bath.
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Peace
lol no, I am not from a traditional background at all. I don't believe in stuff like "women are impure in every imaginable way when they are menstruating do not go near them period." In my first misunderstanding, I just thought maybe we should leave them alone not lock them up or anything, but like I said now with my improved understanding, I've realized that this is not only not necessary but might make the woman even more resentful, us men should just accept it as a fact of life and try to put up with, just like we would put up with a miserable person going through any other kind of sickness
Also, I know very well a guy's penis will not drop etc. if he has sex with a woman while she is menstruating. I'm not from a traditional background so I'm familiar with things like "taking the dirt road" rofl or just having sex with her while she's "on her rag" anyway and nothing happening...as far as a penis falling off is concerned, I can't comment on what happens when the bodily fluids that mix include menstrual blood going into the male as opposed to what would normally mix (assuming the sex is without a condom)
Wait by the way I was never asking about the details of the situation requiring a woman to be locked up or whatever. I was never even asking if we should lock them up or suggesting they should be locked up. What do you mean by which appears to be without thought? Why and how could I ask questions if there was no thought process involved?
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Peace
Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
Once again, I have a basic grade school knowledge of sex education and I don't think menstruation is satanic or evil or that we will die if we go near them or have sex with them. (Even though the verse is saying we shouldn't, I don't doubt The Creator's knowledge of His creatures, something may happen if we do have sex with menstruating women, what I have no idea)
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something. Apparently I didn't clarify that enough for you, but someone else seems to have understood.
Peace
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peace,
Well, those two points you've brought up also use the same root THR, as we have been discussing.
Thus, you will only have a point if you tell us what THR means to you in these occurrences, so we can see if it makes sense or not.
Peace
Well going by the definition of it meaning pure, it would mean to me that ablution can purify a woman who is menstruating, I don't see why it could not unless someone has something to add about why it could not.
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peace,
I dont understand what you're saying. Can you provide us with the verses you are referring to and insert your understanding in them.
Thanks.
al-Waqi`ah (The Event, The Inevitable, That Which is Coming) 5679
5679
Transliteration La yamassuhu illa almutahharoona
Literal None touches it except the pure/clean .Yusuf Ali Which none shall touch but those who are clean
Pickthal Which none toucheth save the purified,
Arberry none but the purified shall touch,
Shakir None shall touch it save the purified ones.
Sarwar no one can touch it except the purified ones.
Khalifa None can grasp it except the sincere.
Hilali/Khan Which (that Book with Allah) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels).
H/K/Saheeh None touch it except the purified.
Malik which none can touch except the purified (angels)
QXP The Book which none but the pure of mind can touch. (Those who approach the Qur'an with minds contaminated with preconceived notions and extrinsic material, will never understand it).
Maulana Ali Which none touches save the purified ones.
Free Minds None can grasp it except those pure.
Qaribullah which none shall touch except the purified;George Sale except those who are clean.
JM Rodwell Let none touch it but the purified,Asad which none but the pure can touch divine writ" (kitab maknun), see 8521-22 and the corresponding note.]
My understanding is that this verse speaks of none can grasp it except those of pure intention, not none can grasp it except those who are physically clean.
al-Ma'idah (The Table, The Table Spread) 56
56
Transliteration Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona
Literal You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones, and if you wereimpure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned , and if you were sick/diseased or on (a) journey/trip/voyage or one of you came from the safe hidden depression in the ground (toilet), or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust good/pure dust, so rub/wipe with your faces and your hands from it, God does not want to make/put on you strain/hardship, and but He wants to purify you mentally and physically and to complete (E) His blessing on you, maybe/perhaps you thank/be grateful.Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
Pickthal O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
Arberry O believers, when you stand up to pray wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and your feet up to the ankles. If you are defiled, purify yourselves; but if you are sick or on a journey, or if any of you comes from the privy, or you have touched women, and you can find no water, then have recourse to wholesome dust and wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not desire to make any impediment for you; but He desires to purify you, and that He may complete His blessing upon you; haply you will be thankful.
Shakir O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.
Sarwar It is unlawful for you to consume the following as food an animal that has not been properly slaughtered, blood, pork, an animal slaughtered and consecrated in the name of someone other than God, an animal killed by strangulation or a violent blow, an animal killed by falling down, an animal which has been gored to death, an animal partly eaten by a wild beast before being properly slaughtered, an animal which has been sacrificed on the stone blocks (which pagans worshipped), and any flesh divided by casting superstitious and gambling arrows (a pagan tradition), which is a sin. Today, the unbelievers have lost hope about your religion. Do not be afraid of them but have fear of Me. On this day I have perfected your religion, completed My favors to you, and have chosen Islam as your religion. If anyone not (normally) inclined to sin is forced by hunger to eat unlawful substances instead of proper food, he may do so to spare his life. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Khalifa O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
Hilali/Khan O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.
H/K/Saheeh O you who have believed, when you rise to prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.
Malik O believers! When you rise up for Salah (prayer), wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, wipe your heads with wet hands and wash your feet to the ankles. If you had an emission of semen, then take a full bath. However, if you are sick or on a journey or you have used the toilet or you had intercourse with your women (your wives) and you do not find any water then resort to Tayammum - find clean soil and rub your faces and hands with it. Allah does not wish to burden you; He only wishes to purify you and to perfect His favor upon you, so that you may be thankful.
QXP O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When you congregate for Salat, wash your faces and your forearms, hands to the elbows. Lightly rub you heads and your feet to the ankles. If you are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But, if you are ill or traveling, or coming from the privy, or are in a state of ceremonial impurity and find no water, then take clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands. (This will help you prepare mentally for congregational prayer (443)). Allah does not wish to place upon you any difficulty, but to make you clean and to perfect His blessings upon you, that you be grateful.
Maulana Ali O you who believe, when you rise up for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if you are under an obligation, then wash (yourselves). And if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you comes from the privy, or you have had contact with women and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith. Allah desires not to place a burden on you but He wishes to purify you, and that He may complete His favour on you, so that you may give thanks.
Free Minds O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
Qaribullah Believers, when you rise to pray wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbow, and wipe your heads and (wash) your feet to the ankle. If you are in a state of impurity, cleanse yourselves. But if you are sick or traveling, or, if when you have just relieved yourselves or had intercourse with women and you cannot find water, touch the clean surface of the earth and rub your hands and faces with it. Allah does not wish to burden you, He seeks only to purify you and to complete His Favor to you in order that you may thank.George Sale O true believers, when ye prepare your selves to pray, wash your faces, and your hands unto the elbows; and rub your heads, and your feet unto the ancles; and if ye be polluted by having lain with a woman, wash your selves all over. But if ye be sick, or on a journey, or any of you cometh from the privy, or if ye have touched women, and ye find no water, take fine clean sand, and rub your faces and your hands therewith; God would not put a difficulty upon you; but he desireth to purify you, and to complete his favour upon you, that ye may give thanks.
JM Rodwell O Believers! when ye address yourselves to prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbow, and wipe your heads, and your feet to the ankles. And if ye have become unclean, then purify yourselves. But if ye are sick, or on a journey, or if one of yAsad O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your hands lightly over your head, and your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total Y ablution, purify yourselves." But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.
My understanding is that this verse is saying that Allah wants to make you pure, not impose hardship on you. Going by the point you brought up, how could it mean clean if it says to use pure/good dust if you don't have water? Unless soil has some cleaning properties.
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Peace, AK85
No offense, but I think you need to chill, bro. peace
Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
I noticed in some of your replies in this thread that you seem to take many things personally. I did not have the impression that anyone was suggesting or assuming you are in need of basic level sex education, or that you cling to any of the superstitions Ayisha mentioned.
The way I understood it was that she brought up those examples because she wanted to express her irritation about such superstitions -- not because she assumed that YOU believe any of those things. It is the nature of such discussions that people sometimes bring up points that they feel are somehow related to the subject, even if they are not in direct reference to the original question or subject.
