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peace
Menstruation is not a sickness! http//img337.imageshack.us/img337/3135/iconconfused.gif
peace
lol yeah I had a feeling that was wrong, what I meant was a "hurt"/injury/mild harm such as the translations suggest
in comparison to a verified sickness which may make people similarly miserable
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Peace
Thank you for the link. I have been made aware that there are other threads about this verse, but my question had to do with what I initially perceived as two pieces of legislation, a subject which was not the topic of the other threads.
The change of subject in this thread from the understanding of two pieces of legislation had to do with my changed understanding. And a point Ayisha thought was necessary to be addressed in this thread.
Peace
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peace ak85, all,
You may wish to re-consider and/or specify your usage of "clean". The way in which it is used by some implies women are unclean during this time, and whilst this may be a plausible interpretation, it is not the most probable imho. The subject is menstruation, sexual approach of that area, and it ends with the masculine plural of THR. Not to mention the other meanings of THR.
A seemingly small point but perhaps significant in its influence, as you may know that Traditional Muslims argue that since they/women are unclean during menses, they should not pray etc etc.In a post on facebook I attempted to logically smash this traditional argument, with the following, perhaps you/others will find it interesting. Re-worded
Of course, the person I was discussing with (happened to be female) never conceded this, as I'm sure it is too nonsensical for them to stomach or be seen admitting to. In any case, it does not refute their argument, but serves to highlight the absurdity of their position. Try it.
Peace
Doesn't it say too, this is done to "purify" you (wudu/ablution) which is different from clean, same as the verse which says "Only the pure can grasp it."
I mean I'm not saying you can't grasp the Qu'ran if you take a mudbath, but if you are a proud mass murdering thieving rapist who just took a conventional bath you are not "pure" enough to grasp it either despite your bath.
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Peace
lol no, I am not from a traditional background at all. I don't believe in stuff like "women are impure in every imaginable way when they are menstruating do not go near them period." In my first misunderstanding, I just thought maybe we should leave them alone not lock them up or anything, but like I said now with my improved understanding, I've realized that this is not only not necessary but might make the woman even more resentful, us men should just accept it as a fact of life and try to put up with, just like we would put up with a miserable person going through any other kind of sickness
Also, I know very well a guy's penis will not drop etc. if he has sex with a woman while she is menstruating. I'm not from a traditional background so I'm familiar with things like "taking the dirt road" rofl or just having sex with her while she's "on her rag" anyway and nothing happening...as far as a penis falling off is concerned, I can't comment on what happens when the bodily fluids that mix include menstrual blood going into the male as opposed to what would normally mix (assuming the sex is without a condom)
Wait by the way I was never asking about the details of the situation requiring a woman to be locked up or whatever. I was never even asking if we should lock them up or suggesting they should be locked up. What do you mean by which appears to be without thought? Why and how could I ask questions if there was no thought process involved?
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Peace
Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
Once again, I have a basic grade school knowledge of sex education and I don't think menstruation is satanic or evil or that we will die if we go near them or have sex with them. (Even though the verse is saying we shouldn't, I don't doubt The Creator's knowledge of His creatures, something may happen if we do have sex with menstruating women, what I have no idea)
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something. Apparently I didn't clarify that enough for you, but someone else seems to have understood.
Peace
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peace,
Well, those two points you've brought up also use the same root THR, as we have been discussing.
Thus, you will only have a point if you tell us what THR means to you in these occurrences, so we can see if it makes sense or not.
Peace
Well going by the definition of it meaning pure, it would mean to me that ablution can purify a woman who is menstruating, I don't see why it could not unless someone has something to add about why it could not.
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peace,
I dont understand what you're saying. Can you provide us with the verses you are referring to and insert your understanding in them.
Thanks.
al-Waqi`ah (The Event, The Inevitable, That Which is Coming) 5679
5679
Transliteration La yamassuhu illa almutahharoona
Literal None touches it except the pure/clean .Yusuf Ali Which none shall touch but those who are clean
Pickthal Which none toucheth save the purified,
Arberry none but the purified shall touch,
Shakir None shall touch it save the purified ones.
Sarwar no one can touch it except the purified ones.
Khalifa None can grasp it except the sincere.
Hilali/Khan Which (that Book with Allah) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels).
H/K/Saheeh None touch it except the purified.
Malik which none can touch except the purified (angels)
QXP The Book which none but the pure of mind can touch. (Those who approach the Qur'an with minds contaminated with preconceived notions and extrinsic material, will never understand it).
Maulana Ali Which none touches save the purified ones.
Free Minds None can grasp it except those pure.
Qaribullah which none shall touch except the purified;George Sale except those who are clean.
JM Rodwell Let none touch it but the purified,Asad which none but the pure can touch divine writ" (kitab maknun), see 8521-22 and the corresponding note.]
My understanding is that this verse speaks of none can grasp it except those of pure intention, not none can grasp it except those who are physically clean.
al-Ma'idah (The Table, The Table Spread) 56
56
Transliteration Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo itha qumtum ila alssalati faighsiloo wujoohakum waaydiyakum ila almarafiqi waimsahoo biruoosikum waarjulakum ila alkaAAbayni wa-in kuntum junuban faittahharoo wa-in kuntum marda aw AAala safarin aw jaa ahadun minkum mina algha-iti aw lamastumu alnnisaa falam tajidoo maan fatayammamoo saAAeedan tayyiban faimsahoo biwujoohikum waaydeekum minhu ma yureedu Allahu liyajAAala AAalaykum min harajin walakin yureedu liyutahhirakum waliyutimma niAAmatahu AAalaykum laAAallakum tashkuroona
Literal You, you those who believed, if you started/got up to the prayers, so wash with water your faces, and your hands to the elbows, and rub/wipe with your heads and your feet to the two joints/ankle bones, and if you wereimpure/unclean , so be purified/cleaned , and if you were sick/diseased or on (a) journey/trip/voyage or one of you came from the safe hidden depression in the ground (toilet), or you touched and felt repeatedly the women, so you did not find water, so wipe your hands and face with dust good/pure dust, so rub/wipe with your faces and your hands from it, God does not want to make/put on you strain/hardship, and but He wants to purify you mentally and physically and to complete (E) His blessing on you, maybe/perhaps you thank/be grateful.Yusuf Ali O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
Pickthal O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
Arberry O believers, when you stand up to pray wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and your feet up to the ankles. If you are defiled, purify yourselves; but if you are sick or on a journey, or if any of you comes from the privy, or you have touched women, and you can find no water, then have recourse to wholesome dust and wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not desire to make any impediment for you; but He desires to purify you, and that He may complete His blessing upon you; haply you will be thankful.
Shakir O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.
Sarwar It is unlawful for you to consume the following as food an animal that has not been properly slaughtered, blood, pork, an animal slaughtered and consecrated in the name of someone other than God, an animal killed by strangulation or a violent blow, an animal killed by falling down, an animal which has been gored to death, an animal partly eaten by a wild beast before being properly slaughtered, an animal which has been sacrificed on the stone blocks (which pagans worshipped), and any flesh divided by casting superstitious and gambling arrows (a pagan tradition), which is a sin. Today, the unbelievers have lost hope about your religion. Do not be afraid of them but have fear of Me. On this day I have perfected your religion, completed My favors to you, and have chosen Islam as your religion. If anyone not (normally) inclined to sin is forced by hunger to eat unlawful substances instead of proper food, he may do so to spare his life. God is All-forgiving and All-merciful.
Khalifa O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
Hilali/Khan O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salat (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to ankles. If you are in a state of Janaba (i.e. had a sexual discharge), purify yourself (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey or any of you comes from answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse) and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour on you that you may be thankful.
H/K/Saheeh O you who have believed, when you rise to prayer, wash your faces and your forearms to the elbows and wipe over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you are in a state of janabah, then purify yourselves. But if you are ill or on a journey or one of you comes from the place of relieving himself or you have contacted women and do not find water, then seek clean earth and wipe over your faces and hands with it. Allah does not intend to make difficulty for you, but He intends to purify you and complete His favor upon you that you may be grateful.
Malik O believers! When you rise up for Salah (prayer), wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, wipe your heads with wet hands and wash your feet to the ankles. If you had an emission of semen, then take a full bath. However, if you are sick or on a journey or you have used the toilet or you had intercourse with your women (your wives) and you do not find any water then resort to Tayammum - find clean soil and rub your faces and hands with it. Allah does not wish to burden you; He only wishes to purify you and to perfect His favor upon you, so that you may be thankful.
QXP O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! When you congregate for Salat, wash your faces and your forearms, hands to the elbows. Lightly rub you heads and your feet to the ankles. If you are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But, if you are ill or traveling, or coming from the privy, or are in a state of ceremonial impurity and find no water, then take clean sand or earth and lightly rub your faces and hands. (This will help you prepare mentally for congregational prayer (443)). Allah does not wish to place upon you any difficulty, but to make you clean and to perfect His blessings upon you, that you be grateful.
Maulana Ali O you who believe, when you rise up for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if you are under an obligation, then wash (yourselves). And if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you comes from the privy, or you have had contact with women and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith. Allah desires not to place a burden on you but He wishes to purify you, and that He may complete His favour on you, so that you may give thanks.
Free Minds O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
Qaribullah Believers, when you rise to pray wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbow, and wipe your heads and (wash) your feet to the ankle. If you are in a state of impurity, cleanse yourselves. But if you are sick or traveling, or, if when you have just relieved yourselves or had intercourse with women and you cannot find water, touch the clean surface of the earth and rub your hands and faces with it. Allah does not wish to burden you, He seeks only to purify you and to complete His Favor to you in order that you may thank.George Sale O true believers, when ye prepare your selves to pray, wash your faces, and your hands unto the elbows; and rub your heads, and your feet unto the ancles; and if ye be polluted by having lain with a woman, wash your selves all over. But if ye be sick, or on a journey, or any of you cometh from the privy, or if ye have touched women, and ye find no water, take fine clean sand, and rub your faces and your hands therewith; God would not put a difficulty upon you; but he desireth to purify you, and to complete his favour upon you, that ye may give thanks.
JM Rodwell O Believers! when ye address yourselves to prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbow, and wipe your heads, and your feet to the ankles. And if ye have become unclean, then purify yourselves. But if ye are sick, or on a journey, or if one of yAsad O YOU who have attained to faith! When you are about to pray, wash your face, and your hands and arms up to the elbows, and pass your hands lightly over your head, and your feet up to the ankles. And if you are in a state. requiring total Y ablution, purify yourselves." But if you are ill, or are travelling, or have just satisfied a want of nature, or have cohabited with a woman, and can find no water-then take resort to pure dust, passing therewith lightly over your face and your hands. God does not want to impose any hardship on you, but wants to make you pure, and to bestow upon you the full measure of His blessings, so that you might have cause to be grateful.
My understanding is that this verse is saying that Allah wants to make you pure, not impose hardship on you. Going by the point you brought up, how could it mean clean if it says to use pure/good dust if you don't have water? Unless soil has some cleaning properties.
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Peace, AK85
No offense, but I think you need to chill, bro. peace
Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
I noticed in some of your replies in this thread that you seem to take many things personally. I did not have the impression that anyone was suggesting or assuming you are in need of basic level sex education, or that you cling to any of the superstitions Ayisha mentioned.
The way I understood it was that she brought up those examples because she wanted to express her irritation about such superstitions -- not because she assumed that YOU believe any of those things. It is the nature of such discussions that people sometimes bring up points that they feel are somehow related to the subject, even if they are not in direct reference to the original question or subject.
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Peace
The first sentence stated a lack of thought on my part before she gave her condemnation of the superstitions. That is one of the things I took offense to. To my understanding, that was directed at me not something being stated in general. Also she says quite clearly it is needed because of the superstitions people believe. Well that is PEOPLE not me, the reason I am here is to learn what the Qu'ran and ONLY the Qu'ran says about things, not people's additions such as their pontification about whether women should be locked up or not etc. Like I said, if I was interested in these people's extralegal opinions and held them as valid and worth subscribing to, I would not come to this site.
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something.
I said "withdraw from them" is good advice, not "lock them up" is good advice. And anyways, I changed my mind after re reading and don't believe withdrawing from outside of sexually withdrawing from them is a good idea any more.
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To my understanding, that was directed at me not something being stated in general.
Also she says quite clearly it is needed because of the superstitions people believe.She also said "where I am living", thus I don't think it was directed at you in any way. )
Ayisha lives in a part of Egypt where many people are illiterate and cling to strange and outdated superstitions and beliefs, such as the ones she mentioned, or female circumcision etc. I don't think she is putting you into one category with those people at all.
peace
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peace ak85,
Thanks for clarifying, however, what you said in replies #32 and #34 seem different to me. There is no problem in changing your view etc but IF you have it would make it easier for me if you actually stated this so I know.
If you have not changed your view, then I can only assume you think in 2222 THR could refer to a physical cleaning, e.g. ablution, and in 5679 and 56 it is not referring to physical cleaning. -
Peace AK
AK Wait by the way I was never asking about the details of the situation requiring a woman to be locked up or whatever. I was never even asking if we should lock them up or suggesting they should be locked up. What do you mean by which appears to be without thought? Why and how could I ask questions if there was no thought process involved?
You had not finished the thought process
AK I just thought maybe we should leave them alone not lock them up or anything, but like I said now with my improved understanding, I've realized that this is not only not necessary but might make the woman even more resentful, us men should just accept it as a fact of life and try to put up with, just like we would put up with a miserable person going through any other kind of sickness
Above your thought process is still continuing, you are still thinking.
AK By the way, I am familiar with grade school sex education, I didn't need to be reminded of the importance of menstruation. Please don't address these kind of things towards me in the future.
And how am I to know what grade school education you, or anyone else here, has had? Where I come from there is no such thing as 'grade school' and where others come from there may not be too. YOU may be educated about womens bodies but not everyone reading this will be.
AK Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
Once again, I have a basic grade school knowledge of sex education and I don't think menstruation is satanic or evil or that we will die if we go near them or have sex with them. (Even though the verse is saying we shouldn't, I don't doubt The Creator's knowledge of His creatures, something may happen if we do have sex with menstruating women, what I have no idea)
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something. Apparently I didn't clarify that enough for you, but someone else seems to have understood.
Even in your posts above you are still thinking.
AK I was very clear that my post was not in any way meant to offend you, you chose to take offense. I did not say your hand will turn to dust if you touch them or that Satan will take over you, but it is clear you DO think 'something will happen' if you have sex with a menstruating woman.
At the time I posted my first reply, with the sarcasm you thought unnecessary, it was not clear what your thought was nor that you had thought it through, which you had not and are still doing. As you went on people started to understand better but some even still had to ask for clarification.
AK The first sentence stated a lack of thought on my part before she gave her condemnation of the superstitions. That is one of the things I took offense to. To my understanding, that was directed at me not something being stated in general. Also she says quite clearly it is needed because of the superstitions people believe. Well that is PEOPLE not me, the reason I am here is to learn what the Qu'ran and ONLY the Qu'ran says about things, not people's additions such as their pontification about whether women should be locked up or not etc. Like I said, if I was interested in these people's extralegal opinions and held them as valid and worth subscribing to, I would not come to this site.
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something.
I said "withdraw from them" is good advice, not "lock them up" is good advice. And anyways, I changed my mind after re reading and don't believe withdrawing from outside of sexually withdrawing from them is a good idea any more.
I did not direct those superstitions to you and that IS clear from my post, maybe if you re-read that too you will see.
I AM talking about Quran and what some people see in Quran. When learning it is a good idea to learn about all sides of a subject and from inside out and back to front, that sometimes involves looking at how other people take things. The breastfeeding fatwa is a prime example where 'scholars' have taken that a breastfed child is mahram even one you have not given birth to, and their lack of thought and education has decided a woman can breasfeed her colleagues so she can work with them. Their lack of education and lack of thought has not got to the level of your grade school and they have no idea that to breasfeed one must have actually had a child recently and therefore be a married woman with a child, they also have no idea or thought how ridiculous this is, BUT it is in Quran = they did not give proper thought NOR did they take Quran as a whole and look at the implications of this.
To make extra clear here, I am NOT saying you believe this, I am marely using this as an example.
As Leyna has already stated I live in an area of Egypt where these cultural superstitions are real. Egypt is an Islamic country, Al Azhar in Cairo is the main place in the world to learn Islam but I live in Upper Egypt where FGM is still at 90+% and women are not allowed in the majority of mosques AT ANY TIME, not just when menstruating. Women are second class citizens because according to them, Quran says so! For these here it will take centuries of education - which women only recently have been entitled to - to get them up to half your grade school level of education and get rid of the cultural habits that ARE seen as part of Islam. To learn Islam you HAVE to learn what Islamic countries are following as Islam and WHY. If there is going to be any sort of 'reform' and getting back to what God actually said or meant it HAS to start affecting these countries and SOON.
Again I will say this is NOT meant to offend anyone, least of all you AK. You are obviously an educated man and there is nothing wrong in throwing a thought into the ring, but you have to stop taking MY replies as personal digs at you. I have NOTHING at all against you, and please stop telling me where I can post and on what subject, I will reply what I think is necessary and where I think is necessary, and when I see that thought has not been finished or even got off the runway I may reply with sarcasm so you know to get off the runway first with your thought.
peace
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Peace AK
You had not finished the thought process
Above your thought process is still continuing, you are still thinking.
And how am I to know what grade school education you, or anyone else here, has had? Where I come from there is no such thing as 'grade school' and where others come from there may not be too. YOU may be educated about womens bodies but not everyone reading this will be.
Even in your posts above you are still thinking.
AK I was very clear that my post was not in any way meant to offend you, you chose to take offense. I did not say your hand will turn to dust if you touch them or that Satan will take over you, but it is clear you DO think 'something will happen' if you have sex with a menstruating woman.
At the time I posted my first reply, with the sarcasm you thought unnecessary, it was not clear what your thought was nor that you had thought it through, which you had not and are still doing. As you went on people started to understand better but some even still had to ask for clarification.
I did not direct those superstitions to you and that IS clear from my post, maybe if you re-read that too you will see.
I AM talking about Quran and what some people see in Quran. When learning it is a good idea to learn about all sides of a subject and from inside out and back to front, that sometimes involves looking at how other people take things. The breastfeeding fatwa is a prime example where 'scholars' have taken that a breastfed child is mahram even one you have not given birth to, and their lack of thought and education has decided a woman can breasfeed her colleagues so she can work with them. Their lack of education and lack of thought has not got to the level of your grade school and they have no idea that to breasfeed one must have actually had a child recently and therefore be a married woman with a child, they also have no idea or thought how ridiculous this is, BUT it is in Quran = they did not give proper thought NOR did they take Quran as a whole and look at the implications of this.
To make extra clear here, I am NOT saying you believe this, I am marely using this as an example.
As Leyna has already stated I live in an area of Egypt where these cultural superstitions are real. Egypt is an Islamic country, Al Azhar in Cairo is the main place in the world to learn Islam but I live in Upper Egypt where FGM is still at 90+% and women are not allowed in the majority of mosques AT ANY TIME, not just when menstruating. Women are second class citizens because according to them, Quran says so! For these here it will take centuries of education - which women only recently have been entitled to - to get them up to half your grade school level of education and get rid of the cultural habits that ARE seen as part of Islam. To learn Islam you HAVE to learn what Islamic countries are following as Islam and WHY. If there is going to be any sort of 'reform' and getting back to what God actually said or meant it HAS to start affecting these countries and SOON.
Again I will say this is NOT meant to offend anyone, least of all you AK. You are obviously an educated man and there is nothing wrong in throwing a thought into the ring, but you have to stop taking MY replies as personal digs at you. I have NOTHING at all against you, and please stop telling me where I can post and on what subject, I will reply what I think is necessary and where I think is necessary, and when I see that thought has not been finished or even got off the runway I may reply with sarcasm so you know to get off the runway first with your thought.
peace
Peace
I really don't mind where and what you post, I just feel it is my right to say when something offends me. Once again, withdraw from them...is not implying lock them up. Withdraw from them means US withdraw from THEM not make THEM withdraw from US by locking THEM UP. Even with my beginning understanding, this is not what I meant. THAT what was my thought process.
