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Peace, AK85
No offense, but I think you need to chill, bro. peace
Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
I noticed in some of your replies in this thread that you seem to take many things personally. I did not have the impression that anyone was suggesting or assuming you are in need of basic level sex education, or that you cling to any of the superstitions Ayisha mentioned.
The way I understood it was that she brought up those examples because she wanted to express her irritation about such superstitions -- not because she assumed that YOU believe any of those things. It is the nature of such discussions that people sometimes bring up points that they feel are somehow related to the subject, even if they are not in direct reference to the original question or subject.
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Peace
The first sentence stated a lack of thought on my part before she gave her condemnation of the superstitions. That is one of the things I took offense to. To my understanding, that was directed at me not something being stated in general. Also she says quite clearly it is needed because of the superstitions people believe. Well that is PEOPLE not me, the reason I am here is to learn what the Qu'ran and ONLY the Qu'ran says about things, not people's additions such as their pontification about whether women should be locked up or not etc. Like I said, if I was interested in these people's extralegal opinions and held them as valid and worth subscribing to, I would not come to this site.
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something.
I said "withdraw from them" is good advice, not "lock them up" is good advice. And anyways, I changed my mind after re reading and don't believe withdrawing from outside of sexually withdrawing from them is a good idea any more.
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To my understanding, that was directed at me not something being stated in general.
Also she says quite clearly it is needed because of the superstitions people believe.She also said "where I am living", thus I don't think it was directed at you in any way. )
Ayisha lives in a part of Egypt where many people are illiterate and cling to strange and outdated superstitions and beliefs, such as the ones she mentioned, or female circumcision etc. I don't think she is putting you into one category with those people at all.
peace
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peace ak85,
Thanks for clarifying, however, what you said in replies #32 and #34 seem different to me. There is no problem in changing your view etc but IF you have it would make it easier for me if you actually stated this so I know.
If you have not changed your view, then I can only assume you think in 2222 THR could refer to a physical cleaning, e.g. ablution, and in 5679 and 56 it is not referring to physical cleaning. -
Peace AK
AK Wait by the way I was never asking about the details of the situation requiring a woman to be locked up or whatever. I was never even asking if we should lock them up or suggesting they should be locked up. What do you mean by which appears to be without thought? Why and how could I ask questions if there was no thought process involved?
You had not finished the thought process
AK I just thought maybe we should leave them alone not lock them up or anything, but like I said now with my improved understanding, I've realized that this is not only not necessary but might make the woman even more resentful, us men should just accept it as a fact of life and try to put up with, just like we would put up with a miserable person going through any other kind of sickness
Above your thought process is still continuing, you are still thinking.
AK By the way, I am familiar with grade school sex education, I didn't need to be reminded of the importance of menstruation. Please don't address these kind of things towards me in the future.
And how am I to know what grade school education you, or anyone else here, has had? Where I come from there is no such thing as 'grade school' and where others come from there may not be too. YOU may be educated about womens bodies but not everyone reading this will be.
AK Even if I was from a traditional background, I have repudiated it by coming to this site and seeking advice from people on this site. Why would I ask about what methods to kill an animal if it isn't apparently listed in the Qu'ran, if I came from a traditional background where I would follow Dhabiba? There appears to be no thought process in you for not being able to figure that out. If I wanted the perspective of hadithists on this verse, I would have gone to sunnipath or some other site. I'm sorry that it wasn't your intention to cause offense, but it did offend me, because I don't believe in all the things you listed, like you will die if you have sex with menstruating women, your hand will turn into dust if you touch them and stuff like that, satan will take over you if you go near their physical proximity etc.
Once again, I have a basic grade school knowledge of sex education and I don't think menstruation is satanic or evil or that we will die if we go near them or have sex with them. (Even though the verse is saying we shouldn't, I don't doubt The Creator's knowledge of His creatures, something may happen if we do have sex with menstruating women, what I have no idea)
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something. Apparently I didn't clarify that enough for you, but someone else seems to have understood.
Even in your posts above you are still thinking.
AK I was very clear that my post was not in any way meant to offend you, you chose to take offense. I did not say your hand will turn to dust if you touch them or that Satan will take over you, but it is clear you DO think 'something will happen' if you have sex with a menstruating woman.
At the time I posted my first reply, with the sarcasm you thought unnecessary, it was not clear what your thought was nor that you had thought it through, which you had not and are still doing. As you went on people started to understand better but some even still had to ask for clarification.
AK The first sentence stated a lack of thought on my part before she gave her condemnation of the superstitions. That is one of the things I took offense to. To my understanding, that was directed at me not something being stated in general. Also she says quite clearly it is needed because of the superstitions people believe. Well that is PEOPLE not me, the reason I am here is to learn what the Qu'ran and ONLY the Qu'ran says about things, not people's additions such as their pontification about whether women should be locked up or not etc. Like I said, if I was interested in these people's extralegal opinions and held them as valid and worth subscribing to, I would not come to this site.
When I thought it meant do not approach them along with do not have sex with them, I thought it meant because of their change in behaviour when they are menstruating not because I will get some kind of disease or something.
I said "withdraw from them" is good advice, not "lock them up" is good advice. And anyways, I changed my mind after re reading and don't believe withdrawing from outside of sexually withdrawing from them is a good idea any more.
I did not direct those superstitions to you and that IS clear from my post, maybe if you re-read that too you will see.
I AM talking about Quran and what some people see in Quran. When learning it is a good idea to learn about all sides of a subject and from inside out and back to front, that sometimes involves looking at how other people take things. The breastfeeding fatwa is a prime example where 'scholars' have taken that a breastfed child is mahram even one you have not given birth to, and their lack of thought and education has decided a woman can breasfeed her colleagues so she can work with them. Their lack of education and lack of thought has not got to the level of your grade school and they have no idea that to breasfeed one must have actually had a child recently and therefore be a married woman with a child, they also have no idea or thought how ridiculous this is, BUT it is in Quran = they did not give proper thought NOR did they take Quran as a whole and look at the implications of this.
To make extra clear here, I am NOT saying you believe this, I am marely using this as an example.
As Leyna has already stated I live in an area of Egypt where these cultural superstitions are real. Egypt is an Islamic country, Al Azhar in Cairo is the main place in the world to learn Islam but I live in Upper Egypt where FGM is still at 90+% and women are not allowed in the majority of mosques AT ANY TIME, not just when menstruating. Women are second class citizens because according to them, Quran says so! For these here it will take centuries of education - which women only recently have been entitled to - to get them up to half your grade school level of education and get rid of the cultural habits that ARE seen as part of Islam. To learn Islam you HAVE to learn what Islamic countries are following as Islam and WHY. If there is going to be any sort of 'reform' and getting back to what God actually said or meant it HAS to start affecting these countries and SOON.
Again I will say this is NOT meant to offend anyone, least of all you AK. You are obviously an educated man and there is nothing wrong in throwing a thought into the ring, but you have to stop taking MY replies as personal digs at you. I have NOTHING at all against you, and please stop telling me where I can post and on what subject, I will reply what I think is necessary and where I think is necessary, and when I see that thought has not been finished or even got off the runway I may reply with sarcasm so you know to get off the runway first with your thought.
peace
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Peace AK
You had not finished the thought process
Above your thought process is still continuing, you are still thinking.
And how am I to know what grade school education you, or anyone else here, has had? Where I come from there is no such thing as 'grade school' and where others come from there may not be too. YOU may be educated about womens bodies but not everyone reading this will be.
Even in your posts above you are still thinking.
AK I was very clear that my post was not in any way meant to offend you, you chose to take offense. I did not say your hand will turn to dust if you touch them or that Satan will take over you, but it is clear you DO think 'something will happen' if you have sex with a menstruating woman.
At the time I posted my first reply, with the sarcasm you thought unnecessary, it was not clear what your thought was nor that you had thought it through, which you had not and are still doing. As you went on people started to understand better but some even still had to ask for clarification.
I did not direct those superstitions to you and that IS clear from my post, maybe if you re-read that too you will see.
I AM talking about Quran and what some people see in Quran. When learning it is a good idea to learn about all sides of a subject and from inside out and back to front, that sometimes involves looking at how other people take things. The breastfeeding fatwa is a prime example where 'scholars' have taken that a breastfed child is mahram even one you have not given birth to, and their lack of thought and education has decided a woman can breasfeed her colleagues so she can work with them. Their lack of education and lack of thought has not got to the level of your grade school and they have no idea that to breasfeed one must have actually had a child recently and therefore be a married woman with a child, they also have no idea or thought how ridiculous this is, BUT it is in Quran = they did not give proper thought NOR did they take Quran as a whole and look at the implications of this.
To make extra clear here, I am NOT saying you believe this, I am marely using this as an example.
As Leyna has already stated I live in an area of Egypt where these cultural superstitions are real. Egypt is an Islamic country, Al Azhar in Cairo is the main place in the world to learn Islam but I live in Upper Egypt where FGM is still at 90+% and women are not allowed in the majority of mosques AT ANY TIME, not just when menstruating. Women are second class citizens because according to them, Quran says so! For these here it will take centuries of education - which women only recently have been entitled to - to get them up to half your grade school level of education and get rid of the cultural habits that ARE seen as part of Islam. To learn Islam you HAVE to learn what Islamic countries are following as Islam and WHY. If there is going to be any sort of 'reform' and getting back to what God actually said or meant it HAS to start affecting these countries and SOON.
Again I will say this is NOT meant to offend anyone, least of all you AK. You are obviously an educated man and there is nothing wrong in throwing a thought into the ring, but you have to stop taking MY replies as personal digs at you. I have NOTHING at all against you, and please stop telling me where I can post and on what subject, I will reply what I think is necessary and where I think is necessary, and when I see that thought has not been finished or even got off the runway I may reply with sarcasm so you know to get off the runway first with your thought.
peace
Peace
I really don't mind where and what you post, I just feel it is my right to say when something offends me. Once again, withdraw from them...is not implying lock them up. Withdraw from them means US withdraw from THEM not make THEM withdraw from US by locking THEM UP. Even with my beginning understanding, this is not what I meant. THAT what was my thought process.
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She also said "where I am living", thus I don't think it was directed at you in any way.
Ayisha lives in a part of Egypt where many people are illiterate and cling to strange and outdated superstitions and beliefs, such as the ones she mentioned, or female circumcision etc. I don't think she is putting you into one category with those people at all.
peace
Yes, I was referring to the lack of thought phrase directed at me, and the rest of it being addressed as a lack of thought from others even though this didn't follow my lack of thought.
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peace ak85,
Thanks for clarifying, however, what you said in replies #32 and #34 seem different to me. There is no problem in changing your view etc but IF you have it would make it easier for me if you actually stated this so I know.
If you have not changed your view, then I can only assume you think in 2222 THR could refer to a physical cleaning, e.g. ablution, and in 5679 and 56 it is not referring to physical cleaning.Well the difficulty is that I think in 5679 and 56 I think it definitely means pure. However I have question, in 56 when it says and if you were impure/unclean then become clean, can this refer to menstruation as well or is strictly orgasm? In that case it could mean clean as well instead of purify, I think the word can mean both according to the context right or no?
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If you are wondering what the word could refer to, what method are you using to determine if it does or not?
A simple way would be to locate the Arabic word you refer to (I assume it is "junub", then investigate it further, e.g. look up its occurrences and Lane's Lexicon entry
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=jnb#(5620)
Jiim-Nun-Ba http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm -
AK I was very clear that my post was not in any way meant to offend you, you chose to take offense. I did not say your hand will turn to dust if you touch them or that Satan will take over you, but it is clear you DO think 'something will happen' if you have sex with a menstruating woman.
(Even though the verse is saying we shouldn't, I don't doubt The Creator's knowledge of His creatures, something may happen if we do have sex with menstruating women, what I have no idea)
So I'm not saying something 100% sure will happen, I'm just saying The Creator says not to do it, for all we know something may happen, what I have no idea, maybe nothing will happen
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If you are wondering what the word could refer to, what method are you using to determine if it does or not?
A simple way would be to locate the Arabic word you refer to (I assume it is "junub", then investigate it further, e.g. look up its occurrences and Lane's Lexicon entry
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=jnb#(5620)
Jiim-Nun-Ba http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmpeace
Well from what I see in the first link, they mostly seem to refer to a direction or location except for two instances where they refer to impure and ceremonial impurity.
junuban (ا noun (2)
accusative masculine singular indefinite noun ( ب- (44314) ... (when you are) impure ...
- (5620) ... (in) a state of ceremonial impurity ...
Can this ceremonial impurity refer to both after having an orgasm, and after menstruating. So when a woman is menstruating, before salaat (assuming they only menstruate once a day, I have no knowledge or education on how many times this occurs in a day) she must purify/clean herself as if she had an orgasm if ceremonial impurity can mean both? Since 2222 says and after they have been purified, you may have sex with them, I am assuming it means they are in ceremonial impurity when they are menstruating. And thus she can still perform salaat even though she is in her menstrual period as long as she purifies/cleans herself after each instance and before performing this salaat?
Also another question, when it says in 56 and if you touched/felt repeatedly (I don't know how you can feel a woman repeatedly outside sex, you'd probably get slapped lol) a woman, can this refer to both sexes? As in vice versa, if a woman felt/touched a man repeatedly that is?
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Peace, AK85
So when a woman is menstruating, before salaat (assuming they only menstruate once a day, I have no knowledge or education on how many times this occurs in a day) she must purify/clean herself as if she had an orgasm
I don't really understand this statement. How would it be possible to "only menstruate once a day", or "several times a day"? Menstruation is a process that goes on continuously for several days.
confused
Can you clarify? -
Peace AK85
Cleanliness and uncleanness in the Quran is not what we perceive?I wouldn?t want to go deep down to discuss it ?? I only quote the following verse and leave it to you to decide what THR really means in the Quran be it in 2222 or elsewhere??..355 is a very good example to grasp the meaning of it.
Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you(muthahheruka) of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes
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Peace, AK85
I don't really understand this statement. How would it be possible to "only menstruate once a day", or "several times a day"? Menstruation is a process that goes on continuously for several days.
confused
Can you clarify?well I'm not sure, that's why I said I have no knowledge or education about how many times it occurs and the cycles but thanks for clarifying
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well I'm not sure, that's why I said I have no knowledge or education about how many times it occurs and the cycles but thanks for clarifying
Simply said, when a woman is menstruating, she is losing blood continuously.
Now this might sound as if she is losing a lot of blood, but that is not the case. It depends on the individual, but the average blood loss during menstruation is supposed to be 35 millilitres with 10-80 millilitres being considered normal. -
Simply said, when a woman is menstruating, she is losing blood continuously.
She is not losing blood contiuously, in fact she is discharging/draining out-removing away the disintegrated/collapsed spread lining/endometrium-one of three layers of her uterus . It is why women are called the Subject/Doer of the Verb .
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She is not losing blood contiuously, in fact she is discharging/draining out-removing away the disintegrated/collapsed spread lining/endometrium-one of three layers of her uterus .
I know she is shedding the endometrium lining. But she is also losing blood, that's what I was referring to.
I used the word "continuously" since AK85 seemed to think the bleeding is something that happens in intervals. That would mean a woman bleeds, then the bleeding stops, then she bleeds again and so on. But usually, as I said, it is more of a continuous process.
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Yes Leyna, I knew you know even to minute detail of quantity of blood loss; perhaps I incorrectly worded the sentence; me was more interested to invite attention to the verb of the verse which is the subject matter of discussion or say "confusion" despite Ayesha's verdict that the issue relates only to avoid " " during that draining out.
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Yes Leyna, I knew you know even to minute detail of quantity of blood loss
Why the need for sarcasm? confused
perhaps I incorrectly worded the sentence
Yes, you did.
me was more interested to invite attention to the verb of the verse which is the subject matter of discussion
OK, I understand.
But you need to grant other members the right to focus on other aspects of the issue, should they regard that as necessary / interesting / important.
