Where and how to start
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Salam all
Not sure if this is the right place to post this but I need advice.I have met a woman here in Luxor who moved out here to live. She is a friend of a friend (non-muslim friend) who also lives here. Friend knows my views on Islam but new friend is a convert of only a few years, Australian born but lived in UK for 20 years approx. When she accepted Islam she lived in London with access to all the sunni mosques and islamic teaching centres and took advantage of this full on. hence she is a hadithist, no music, no mixing, no showing hair, wears a tent and hijab. She is a lovely intellligent woman and the more I have got to know her I have come to like her a great deal, although I have not spent a great deal of time with her she has a great sense of humour, but I have seen she is quite 'protective' of her version of Islam.
Something came up the other night in a discussion with me and her and 2 non-muslim female friends about polygamy. She asked me what would I do and I said I would divorce him but he wouldnt take a 2nd wife anyway as we had discussed this before marriage. She answered a question of one of the non-muslim women saying the men are allowed 4 wives so then I said that polygamy verse relates to orphans anyway and God is clear in verse 4129 that no man can deal justly with more than one, she looked at me oddly and asked if I was sure then asked if this is in Arabic not just a translation so I said yes and told her the verses. It wasnt mentioned again.
During other times and discussions with these particular non-muslims she has come out with things as 'this is Islam' and I have kept my mouth firmly shut, not wanting to cause an argument for the sake of our mutual friend who always glances at me at these times. For instance, we were on a felucca, 5 women and the 2 guys doing the driving, discussing something about Islam, one guy says I dont understand sunni shia things, what is this, I am Muslim, so she told him he was sunni, that Egypt is sunni and all Egyptians are sunni Muslims! he replied with I follow Quran does that mean I am sunni, she said yes you are sunni. I thought it best not to say anything at this time, dunno why but something stopped me. Then she said what Shia believe, which IMO was not quite right so I started to say something and stopped, my non-muslim friend said 'go on' so I said what I had to say and that was like 'new info' for the other convert.
Anyway I am rambling on! I want to say something but should I just leave it till it comes naturally or shall I mention I am not sunni and Quran only and see what happens? I feel in a way I am deceiving her.
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Salam,
Salam all
Not sure if this is the right place to post this but I need advice.I have met a woman here in Luxor who moved out here to live. She is a friend of a friend (non-muslim friend) who also lives here. Friend knows my views on Islam but new friend is a convert of only a few years, Australian born but lived in UK for 20 years approx. When she accepted Islam she lived in London with access to all the sunni mosques and islamic teaching centres and took advantage of this full on. hence she is a hadithist, no music, no mixing, no showing hair, wears a tent and hijab. She is a lovely intellligent woman and the more I have got to know her I have come to like her a great deal, although I have not spent a great deal of time with her she has a great sense of humour, but I have seen she is quite 'protective' of her version of Islam.
Something came up the other night in a discussion with me and her and 2 non-muslim female friends about polygamy. She asked me what would I do and I said I would divorce him but he wouldnt take a 2nd wife anyway as we had discussed this before marriage. She answered a question of one of the non-muslim women saying the men are allowed 4 wives so then I said that polygamy verse relates to orphans anyway and God is clear in verse 4129 that no man can deal justly with more than one, she looked at me oddly and asked if I was sure then asked if this is in Arabic not just a translation so I said yes and told her the verses. It wasnt mentioned again.
During other times and discussions with these particular non-muslims she has come out with things as 'this is Islam' and I have kept my mouth firmly shut, not wanting to cause an argument for the sake of our mutual friend who always glances at me at these times. For instance, we were on a felucca, 5 women and the 2 guys doing the driving, discussing something about Islam, one guy says I dont understand sunni shia things, what is this, I am Muslim, so she told him he was sunni, that Egypt is sunni and all Egyptians are sunni Muslims! he replied with I follow Quran does that mean I am sunni, she said yes you are sunni. I thought it best not to say anything at this time, dunno why but something stopped me. Then she said what Shia believe, which IMO was not quite right so I started to say something and stopped, my non-muslim friend said 'go on' so I said what I had to say and that was like 'new info' for the other convert.
Anyway I am rambling on! I want to say something but should I just leave it till it comes naturally or shall I mention I am not sunni and Quran only and see what happens? I feel in a way I am deceiving her.
I feel for you sis. I have the same problem, and I think many progressives naturally learn to keep their mouths shut. I think having gone through all the inconsistencies of orthodox Islam I've reached a point where I don't see the benefit in causing arguments with traditionalists. They have every right to believe what they want, as do we.
I think you should wait until it comes naturally, or at least not start debates in front of non-Muslims.
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then I said that polygamy verse relates to orphans anyway and God is clear in verse 4129 that no man can deal justly with more than one, she looked at me oddly and asked if I was sure then asked if this is in Arabic not just a translation so I said yes and told her the verses.
Just keep doing that. Once she is full of doubts and confused she will come to you, then you must tell her to join us here! ;D
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No body gonna protect you from Allah except Allah ,
How you would replay to Allah when you know that you've abandoned the teaches of Mohamed ( The connection of Allah and his peace upon him ) !!!!!
You follow yourself then you followed yourself
You Follow Mohamed (s) then you followed Allah .It's up to you
and about 4 wifes ...
Mohamed the passenger of Allah (s) didn't marry others while he was married with Khadeja (r).
Seems like he admired more than we ever know for Khadeja (r)While after she (r) died he (s) married others .
Friends of Mohamed (s) also had married more than one .
they made families , they wanted children to carry on this massage of Allah .It is a virtue to marry more than one wife to make the word of Allah the highest .
this verse explains one of the reasons to be able to marry more than one .
and it doesn't forbid to marry more without having orphans ... -
I personally don't discuss these kinds of things with people unless
a) I know them very well and can trust that they won't lose their heads
or
b) I know they have a very solid foundation in Islam and won't just give it all up as soon as some doubt creeps into their mindsSo I fear with a convert for example, something as huge as renouncing hadiths might make them renounce Islam altogether....because the feeling can be emotionally shocking - they had just felt "so sure" before when they accepted Islam in package form - and now it turns out to be completely false!
So honestly I would probably stray away from really serious conversations. Instead what I do is to always push certain views and values
a) Anyone who believes in the Quran is a Muslim. Sects are manmade politics
b) Anyone who believes in 1 God is a Muslim
c) Hadiths are not from God and MAY contain SOME doubt
d) Therefore, hadiths should not be as important as the Quran
e) All Muslims should study the Quran by themselves, and not rely on 'scholars' or 'imams' or 'sheikhs'.These are the views that I try to push to people with whom I wouldn't reveal my true feelings on the matter. I try to get them to see all Muslims as Muslims, and not as some sect. I try to get them to see the Quran as number 1 in importance, and I try to expound on the importance of the intentions and thoughts, and not on silly things like doing things with your right hand first, etc etc
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You Follow Mohamed (s) then you followed Allah .
correction
you follow Mohamed (s) then you followed Mohamed
You follow Rasul you followed Allah.
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Aiysha, personally I wouldn't actively seek out a discussion, and I usually try to avoid conflicts. But if someone makes statements like "this IS so and so in Islam", I do feel I have to object if it's something I feel strongly about.
Many people, as you know yourself, will feel totally convinced of something and make such statements, yet when you dig a bit deeper, you find out that it's just something they have heard so many times that they believe it must be true, without ever having actually bothered to do proper research for themselves.
Mohamed the passenger of Allah (s)
confused ;D
they made families , they wanted children to carry on this massage of Allah .
It is a virtue to marry more than one wife to make the word of Allah the highest .
Ah, I love this argument ... people should marry more than one wife so they can produce many children and increase the number of Muslims.
So women are nothing but baby machines. Lovely. )
Can you support this argument with any evidence from the Qur'an? I'd say no.
Mh ... now why do I feel that this new member sounds strangely familiar?
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Mh ... now why do I feel that this new member sounds strangely familiar?
passenger ?
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No body gonna protect you from Allah except Allah ,
How you would replay to Allah when you know that you've abandoned the teaches of Mohamed ( The connection of Allah and his peace upon him ) !!!!!
You follow yourself then you followed yourself
You Follow Mohamed (s) then you followed Allah .It's up to you
and about 4 wifes ...
Mohamed the passenger of Allah (s) didn't marry others while he was married with Khadeja (r).
Seems like he admired more than we ever know for Khadeja (r)While after she (r) died he (s) married others .
Friends of Mohamed (s) also had married more than one .
they made families , they wanted children to carry on this massage of Allah .It is a virtue to marry more than one wife to make the word of Allah the highest .
this verse explains one of the reasons to be able to marry more than one .
and it doesn't forbid to marry more without having orphans ...sorry I follow Allah and His words in Quran, what you have given is not in Quran, in fact you have contradicted Quran as the verse IS regarding marrying for the sake of orphans. There is nothing in Quran about marrying more wives to have more children to make the Word of Allah the highest, and highest among who? another deity? The Word of Allah is the highest Word without having more children as and excuse is make more muslims. You can follow conjecture if you wish but dont come making claims about Allah when you have abandoned His words in favour of claimed words of one of His prophets.
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peace Ayisha,
Seems to me she is relatively open, as when you mentioned the orphan-related polygamy verses, she didn't have an emotional outburst etc.
I would just continue as you are, if an issue comes up, you can give the Quranic position, or even ask open questions to make one think etc. Discussion does not necessarily lead to an argument.
For example, if someone said if you read/follow Quran that makes you Sunni, I dont see the big deal in correcting that statement, e.g. saying majority of Muslims are Sunni, but other sects also read/follow Quran, each sect has their add-ons, schools of thought, tradition/culture etc.
Also generally, you can recommend Quran study tools, to allow self-study of the Quran.
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peace Ayisha,
Seems to me she is relatively open, as when you mentioned the orphan-related polygamy verses, she didn't have an emotional outburst etc.
she gave me an odd look, especially when she asked if it said that in the Arabic assuming I had only looked at translations. She said no more, just an odd look. I did expect her to look after we left, I would have done, but have seen her since and she didnt mention it.I noticed she even does something I found odd in many muslims, eating with a knife and fork she has her fork in her left hand but transfers it to her right hand before putting food in her mouth. I always found that strange when eating with cutlery and the hadith would hev referred to eating with the hands. Just shows how changes are made with each generation.
I would just continue as you are, if an issue comes up, you can give the Quranic position, or even ask open questions to make one think etc. Discussion does not necessarily lead to an argument.
For example, if someone said if you read/follow Quran that makes you Sunni, I dont see the big deal in correcting that statement, e.g. saying majority of Muslims are Sunni, but other sects also read/follow Quran, each sect has their add-ons, schools of thought, tradition/culture etc.
Also generally, you can recommend Quran study tools, to allow self-study of the Quran.
I think thats the way I will go Wakas, if it comes up say something, if it doesnt then dont offer it.
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Peace,
Respect.ASk her where in The Qur'an does it say that we must follow prophet's sunah and his ahdeeth.
This might open a debate which might include chapter 68 and 69. God knows best.You might wanna mention the verses 7185, 316, 3923, 456, 5234, 6844 and 7750
and the word hadeeth, what it means in Arabic and how is it used in these verses.ASk her where in The Qur'an does God The Most Wise say that The Qur'an is fullyd etailed Book, if it is fully detailed Book. If she says nothing for full 5 seconds, you might wanna ask her to read 6114 to you, God willing. Also, ask her, where in The Qur'an does God say to chop off theif's hand. If again she says nothing, ask her to read
4117 They are calling on females besides Him. Indeed, they are only calling on a persistent devil.
4118 God has cursed him; and he said I will take from Your servants a sizeable portion.
4119 And I will misguide them and make them desire, and I will command them, so that they will mark the ears of the livestock, and I will command them so they will make changes to the creation of God. Whoever takes the devil as a supporter other than God, then he has indeed lost a great loss.
4120 He promises them and makes them desire, but what the devil promises them is only vanity.Ask her where in The Qur'an does God say that a woman MUST be covered as a sunni woman is covered today. If silence is there again - go to
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.Peace.
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Aiysha, personally I wouldn't actively seek out a discussion, and I usually try to avoid conflicts. But if someone makes statements like "this IS so and so in Islam", I do feel I have to object if it's something I feel strongly about.
Many people, as you know yourself, will feel totally convinced of something and make such statements, yet when you dig a bit deeper, you find out that it's just something they have heard so many times that they believe it must be true, without ever having actually bothered to do proper research for themselves.
That's what I do too, I only argue if someone says 'this is what it says in the Qur'an' and they're either incorrect or it's actually from the hadiths ... that's how I've dealt with a lot of things with my husband so far ... He used to go on and on about the "signs of judgment day" and now he rarely talks about it after I was able to show him they were not in the Qur'an, and also pointed out the verses that say that Prophet Muhammad (saw) didn't know the future.
With other family members though, that are older ... I feel it's rather hopeless and they're very set in their ways. They just listen to other people and they're sort of brainwashed in a way.
