Quran alone interpreted according to whom?

Ayisha

I'm waiting for this, and it is a challenge to everyone If we are not in need of a someone to whom God brings the correct understanding of the book containing God's message (2533, 2179) so someone would be able to bring me the correct understanding of sura 100. Or tell me what is the exact nature of the Smoke in sura 44 and when it will happen ?
Peace Kamzo
So you think we need yet another messenger to tell you the same thing all other messengers have said and even after the final messenger left the final and 100% Words of God Himself with us, you still need another messenger to tell you what it means? ???

I nor anyone else apart from God Himself can give you 'the correct' understanding of any verse, we can only give what 'we' each see as 'correct' understanding in the verses.

I will attempt to give my understanding of sura 100 using Yusef Ali translation, there are others and I suggest you read as many as you can to help in reaching an understanding

By the (Steeds) that run, with panting (breath),
And strike sparks of fire,
And push home the charge in the morning,
And raise the dust in clouds the while,
And penetrate forthwith into the midst (of the foe) en masse;-
Truly man is, to his Lord, ungrateful;

Up to here I see this as Allah making a declaration, ie swearing BY these things, that Truely man is ungrateful to his Lord.

And to that (fact) he bears witness (by his deeds);

man bears witness to how ungrateful he is by the deeds he does

And violent is he in his love of wealth.

man shows in his deeds that he loves wealth, which is not necessarily money, more than God

Does he not know,- when that which is in the graves is scattered abroad
And that which is (locked up) in (human) breasts is made manifest-

doesnt man know that on that last day when all the inhabitants in their graves will be scattered, ie rise to meet Him and that day when every human heart is opened for the things inside it to be shown to God and all to see

That their Lord had been Well-acquainted with them, (even to) that Day?

that God has known everything about them even what is in their hearts all along.

Its saying that God knows everything about everyone and those that think wealth, whatever it is they worship besides God, is more important than serving God in the way He has instructed to do for a believer and these don't think about this Day when they will have to meet God who will know exactly what they have done. There is no escape, we will meet Him and He will know everything, there is no hiding it or making excuses, it will be too late. he has us all pegged -\

Zees is right. What he says shows that we need somebody who, when we will all meditate upon a chapter of the Qur'an and when we'll be arguing between us to know who's right in his own understanding, this special person will be the one before whom the problem that has emerged will be judged. He will be the authority, and will judge among us with what God has revealed the Qur'an. The only difference between him and us is that he's brought the correct understanding as in 2533. And we will submit if it is in accordance with the Qur'an of course.
hhmmm. So you want another messenger and one you can submit to that has the correct understanding from God. We have had all we will get and now it's down to us to read it and think about it and research it and reflect on it and discuss it and pray for guidence from God that He will help us to understand it. He says it's clear, complete and easy to understand, so don't make it hard and don't be lazy in wanting someone else to give you the 'correct' understanding. I don't mean to be rude towards you here peace but even if someone comes to you with an understanding, like I have, you are supposed to still research and see if my understanding is 'correct' enough for your understanding. You will be judged on that day for your own understanding and how you follow it, you will have no excuse like 'he said it means this or that' as you are expected to use your brain that God gave you and your heart that God gave you to reach an understanding and follow the 'best of it' in the best way.

Why should we be opponents to this idea, God tells us that it is a blessing to send someone like this is sura 2151 ? We should reflect upon this.

I dont think anyone's opposing it, we would all like Muhammed to be here as it would help a great deal, its just its not going to happen as we have had the final 'warning' and it is our duty to not fall as those before us fell.

Ayisha

So the Quranic truth, decrees and the commandments that the book of God contains is nothing more than a subjective truth that requires no implementation whatsoever? Therefore the infallible truth of God is nothing more than a personal guide meant to reform the individual and has no practical import whatsoever for the society? So when faced with societal problems like murders, rape and corruption we ought to follow secular laws and ignore Quranic commandments concerning them but when faced with our personal demons we ought to resort to the Quran. Why don?t we expunge these laws concerning our mutual affairs from the Quran altogether so that it becomes a proper mystical book and we can chant it loudly like a fool so that we may increase our chances of experiencing unity with the godhead (whatever that means)? I wonder if that is the only purpose left of the Quran.

Peace Zees

ok, does Quran say there IS compulsion for everyone to follow this guidence? No, it says 'for those who believe' and it says 'truth stands out clear from error' and that is for those that do see it, those that don't, or do see and don't follow, God will deal with.

Murder is dealt with in Quran, so is Rape. Corruption is rife normally from the TOP down in most societies and sadly especially 'Islamic' ones, so how is it dealt with in those that do use 'sharia law'?

To a point I do agree, but what we are wanting is an 'Ideal' society and that is described in Quran where everyone follows it as God intended it to be followed, but this world is NOT an 'Ideal' society and God knows that very well as He has repeatedly said that man is ungrateful, man basically thinks he knows better than God, if man only knew, etc. So the ONLY way to have anything like this is starting within ourselves, but it will never reach everyone, its not that simple as God made man with 'free will' to follow or not.

Kamzo19

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to answer and share you're understanding of sura 100 Aisha.

I will reformulate a little bit my question The challenge will focus on the five first verses of sura 100.

To Ayisha and all readers does everybody agree with the translation quoted by Ayisha ? I want to find someone who disagree with the translation quoted by Ayisha, wich is the traditional one, talking about fast gallopers or horses.

Peace to all,

Kamzo19

Ayisha

Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to answer and share you're understanding of sura 100 Aisha.

I will reformulate a little bit my question The challenge will focus on the five first verses of sura 100.

To Ayisha and all readers does everybody agree with the translation quoted by Ayisha ? I want to find someone who disagree with the translation quoted by Ayisha, wich is the traditional one, talking about fast gallopers or horses.

Peace to all,

Kamzo19

Peace Kamzo. There are other translations as I said, including one that translates the first 5 verses as to do with the Harmattan winds, but whatever translation is used the message in it is clearly that Allah 'swears or declares by' whatever, be it horses, winds or batman, that man is ungrateful and doesnt think that one day he will meet Him. I dont think another 'meaning' for those 5 verses will take that 'message' away or distort it.

Ayisha

I will add that one can very easily get 'lost' in trying to literally decipher each meaning of each word and hence 'lose' the 'message' that is contained in the verses. I hope that makes sense. Saying that, one should look at all translations if one is not reading Arabic, and also if one IS reading the Arabic, as even many Arab natives get a little 'lost' in finding its 'meaning'

Kamzo19

I will add that one can very easily get 'lost' in trying to literally decipher each meaning of each word and hence 'lose' the 'message' that is contained in the verses. I hope that makes sense. Saying that, one should look at all translations if one is not reading Arabic, and also if one IS reading the Arabic, as even many Arab natives get a little 'lost' in finding its 'meaning'

Dear Ayisha, this is precisely why you need God to grant you the correct understanding. Here are the 3 ways He has chosen to do this

AQ 4251And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

So I can say that God can inspire (for you to know the exact meaning) somebody (a messenger for example) who, after all your efforts to decipher the correct meaning, will share with you a better and more accurate meaning and interpretation of a passage from the Scripture. Do you think it is possible ?

I'm not stupid, I know that prophet Muhammad is dead, that he can not come back, and that I do not recognize hadith as a source of law. So, I think I'll be happy and thankful, in front of this state of complete division and different understanding and speculations about prophecies in Qur'an for example, if someone whom God taught knowledge from the Scripture, raised from our midst (the God-aloners) come to me and teaches me what God taught him and that I could not reach for X reasons.

What do you think ?

(to WakkasI hope my dialogue with sister Ayisha will prove in a logical way that I'm right. It is part of my demonstration)

Wakas

peace Kazmo,

Can you read again my arguments Wakas please, isn't wat I said sufficiently logic ? Did I not bring two verses to support an aspect of my idea ? Is this what you call a failure ?

I read your "arguments" several times. I always try to pay careful attention in what I read and what I write, so I can only repeat what I said you provided nothing that I would call evidence, by Quran and/or logic, sorry. That is only my view, perhaps others found it convincing.

For example, your view is dealt a critical blow by a simple consideration of 37.

Perhaps you and proponents of your view can do some research and formulate a logical, detailed and referenced argument. Until then I dont see how there is much to add.

Ayisha

Dear Ayisha, this is precisely why you need God to grant you the correct understanding.
Bold from me peace yes and that is what i ask Him to do everytime I pray, that He will give ME the correct understanding.

Here are the 3 ways He has chosen to do this

AQ 4251And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise.

So I can say that God can inspire (for you to know the exact meaning) somebody (a messenger for example) who, after all your efforts to decipher the correct meaning, will share with you a better and more accurate meaning and interpretation of a passage from the Scripture. Do you think it is possible ?
God DID inspire men to understand the correct meaning as in ALL His prophets and messengers and unless you think He no longer listens to our prayers, which He says he listens to ALL who call on Him, then there is no reason he cannot 'inspire' you or me with correct understanding.

The messenger sent in 42.51 is NOT a human messenger, it is the one that 'inspired' Muhammed and other prophets. It is Gabriel who was the one that this message came from God and reached Muhammed through.

you say after all our efforts to decipher the correct meaning, this is not a maths exam, there is no 'answer book' to tick off as we get the 'correct' understanding and shout yippee! each one will see things differently and Wakas is spot on, "But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah." So even the messenger himself wouldnt have known the 'correct' understanding of those verses.

I said before, somewhere, that in this book there are both paths and that can be seen by looking at who follows certain verses the way they do and can be seen from the above verse 3.7. To 'get it' you need to 'ask' for it with a sincere heart and mind and if God means you to 'have it' then you can be sure you will 'get it', if not you follow those who follow the perversity and the allegorical. Really I dont see what is so difficult in reading a book what has everything in it, and thinking about it and the message in it is there, open your eyes and stop searching for what color heifer it was for the sacrifice, just do the sacrifice, or whether sura 100 has racing horses or wild stallions, it does not affect the 'message' to know what or if they were horses.

I'm not stupid, I know that prophet Muhammad is dead, that he can not come back, and that I do not recognize hadith as a source of law. So, I think I'll be happy and thankful, in front of this state of complete division and different understanding and speculations about prophecies in Qur'an for example, if someone whom God taught knowledge from the Scripture, raised from our midst (the God-aloners) come to me and teaches me what God taught him and that I could not reach for X reasons.

What do you think ?
yes I would be happy too, but in view that God has said all He had to say and has left us with the complete, fully detailed, easy for those who think and reflect, book full of wisdom and guidence for those who seek it, i would sincerely mistrust enormously anyone that came and said he was another messenger or had been 'inspired' to give the 'correct' understanding as Quran is very clear as it is. I am not trusting my SOUL and my afterlife to anyone when God has left HIS WORDS and a test for me to 'see it' or not and has clearly told me that if I ask in all sincerity then he will guide me. I put my full 110% trust in God alone.

(to WakkasI hope my dialogue with sister Ayisha will prove in a logical way that I'm right. It is part of my demonstration)

Demonstration of what exactly? ???

Yosemite

Peace to all,

Personally, I did reflect with a brother in Paris on this question and I reached the conclusion I'm going to share with you

People of the Qur'an need an accepted and recognized authority who speaks in the name of God. One to whom God brings the correct understanding in what we are divided ( different understandings,...).

At the time of prophet Muhammad, they had their messenger. Today, I think we need this autority. Otherwise, each one will follow his own understanding. Tamara raised "THE" question, and she did well.

that's giving too much power in the hands of a few

bravo

There has never been any nation or people that has conquered when divided. Is there any legit proof or "stamp of approval" on the articles you can find on Free Minds? Has there ever been any consensus at all amongst us?

americans are a good exemple of it aren't they
genociding the native americans and messing with the world's affair like no other
it did good, didn't it
you can have a grand nation very united (nazi germany) that can conquere like no other (nazi germany) with an unseen efficiency before

Zees

Peace Zees

ok, does Quran say there IS compulsion for everyone to follow this guidence? No, it says 'for those who believe' and it says 'truth stands out clear from error' and that is for those that do see it, those that don't, or do see and don't follow, God will deal with.

Murder is dealt with in Quran, so is Rape. Corruption is rife normally from the TOP down in most societies and sadly especially 'Islamic' ones, so how is it dealt with in those that do use 'sharia law'?

To a point I do agree, but what we are wanting is an 'Ideal' society and that is described in Quran where everyone follows it as God intended it to be followed, but this world is NOT an 'Ideal' society and God knows that very well as He has repeatedly said that man is ungrateful, man basically thinks he knows better than God, if man only knew, etc. So the ONLY way to have anything like this is starting within ourselves, but it will never reach everyone, its not that simple as God made man with 'free will' to follow or not.

It is the mark of an intellectual mind to admit the truth when he sees it and on that account you have done superbly and I must not fail to commend you for that. So you speak the truth when you say that there is no such thing as a Quranic law in corrupt societies. In spite of that the book of God is not only a guidance for the individual only but also for societies. For that end societies or at least those set of believers who proclaim the true faith should be willing to live by the truth that they claim to profess. As the saying goes you don?t simply talk the talk but must also be willing to walk the walk. Calling yourself something doesn?t necessarily make you that but practicing the same does make you worthy of being called that. May God guide all of us to the right path. Amen.

Kamzo19

Really I dont see what is so difficult in reading a book what has everything in it, and thinking about it and the message in it is there, open your eyes and stop searching for what color heifer it was for the sacrifice, just do the sacrifice, or whether sura 100 has racing horses or wild stallions, it does not affect the 'message' to know what or if they were horses.

Dear Ayisha, I think you're wrong in saying that this does not affect the message. God does not reveal signs in vain. Every word has got its precise measure. Maybe those simple words are a message , THE message, "a warning like the warnings of old" and maybe you cannot see it for reasons I don't know.

Anyway,I really valorize and appreciate your insistance on the concept of asking and submitting to God alone and the rational precautions you would take if someone comes saying that he has been taught or inspired correct meaning or understanding of the scripture.

Perhaps you and proponents of your view can do some research and formulate a logical, detailed and referenced argument. Until then I dont see how there is much to add.

I thank you for the suggestion. I think there is a great need of it.

that's giving too much power in the hands of a few

This has always been the system revoke power from the hands of a corrupted majority and give it to a good/reformer minority that are established on earth in place of the bad/not producing anything ones in spite of their aversion.

Thank you all for taking time to read and answer. If anyone has a different understanding/tanslation of chapter 100 or 105 Feel free to mail me or post it on the forum. May God increase our knowledge. Peace. )

Emil

Peace Emil

I do understand what you're saying but the unity is following Quran and following Allah and as Allah did not make us all into pre-programmed robots so there is always going to be differences in opinions, even in the prophets time there were differences. Belonging is to Allah, its not a club to belong to and its not about 'connecting' with anyone other than Allah. Here in FM there are those we can 'connect' with on some things and not on others but we are generally 'like minded' as we are looking at Quran only. You can still see the vast amount of differences in thought process and what we all take from it individually though. to have a set of rules other than rules in Quran would lead to something that is not true 'belief' but something the same as traditionlists have in that you are told what is right and what this means etc etc, it would be no different. One cannot force belief, you either do or you dont believe, so saying 'this means this' but one cannot 'see' that is not true belief, its submission to some doctrine invented by someone elses views on Quran.

39.18 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

This does not mean those who follow someone elses decision as to what the best meaning in it is, it means for US, each one, to listen and find the best meaning in it for US, each one of us, as Allah has made His verses clear for those who think and reflect so yes, we can find the answer and the reason by looking inside ourselves when reading Quran and thinking about it peace

of course this is my opinion from my reading, yours may be different, but thats why we discuss things so we have opinions from every angle and use others viewpoints to reach our own understanding.

Dear Ayisha

What you written above is very beautiful and I respect your ability to put thought into words. I also seek your patience if I have trouble expressing my opinion in words. I am a physical person, not a theoretical one.

I have to make myself clear on one point. In no way ever am I longing for a religious leader to follow or for someone to tell what is wrong or right. I would never want to put limits to free speech, free mind, or any other way of individual freedom. I am a stern follower of the "I totally disagree with your opinion and I will defend your freedom to have that opinion with my life" motto.

I am not talking about belonging to a club as you wrote, I am talking about unity. What I am looking for is unity in the fundamental philosophical theory of God Alone. I am not asking for rules to follow, I am asking for an "authority" declaring officially that YES! We stand for freedom of speech, we stand for Freedom of choice. At the moment, can you truly say that we do stand for freedom? I don't know because right now there are only words and opinions on the internet.

In my community I can almost see daily the segregation between immigrant muslims and the native population growing. Not because of islamaphobia or discrimination, but because the muslims find it increasingly difficult to merge their religion with the way of life in a western country.

I would so much like want to say to segregated muslims that "Look, I am a muslim and I can merge my belief and the society I live in". They would say, "O yeah? How did you manage that? I would say "Check this out, this is a group that calls themselves God Alone muslims. They believe in a system that actually keeps your connection to God no matter what society you live in, and the good part is that you can do so without risk of segregation". They would ask "But what if we don't agree with everything they say?" I would say "Of course you are allowed to disagree, in fact, God Alone muslims encourage questioning and they have a firm belief in freedom of speech, ask anyone of them, they would tell you the same as I am now."

Can I say that last sentence today? No, because I don't know if it is true...

are a good exemple of it aren't they
genociding the native americans and messing with the world's affair like no other
it did good, didn't it
you can have a grand nation very united (nazi germany) that can conquere like no other (nazi germany) with an unseen efficiency before

Sorry Yosemite, a "thinking in one language and writing in another" error. I didn't mean conquer, I meant go forward, evolve, become better.

Yosemite

Sorry Yosemite, a "thinking in one language and writing in another" error. I didn't mean conquer, I meant go forward, evolve, become better.

ok i see now
no problem

Emil

Ayisha

Just to give you an example of what I mean by muslims struggling to merge faith with western society I have translated an article from a Swedish newspaper. I am sorry for the translate mistakes.

In January 2009 Alia reports, born in Egypt but raised in Sweden, ?so adult high school to the discrimination ombudsman (DO) for discrimination. The school does not allow her to wear a niqab. She was told by the school that her place in the Child and Recreation Program would be canceled if she continues to cover her face. Alia makes a compromise proposal to the school, she agreed to remove the veil when no man can see her face. If she can sit in the front of the classroom and if the teacher in front is a woman, she can consider taking the veil off. She would only put it on when a man passes by. The school said no to the compromise proposal. Alia says that the Niqab ban violates her religious rights and her right to education.

?so Adult High School and Stockholm City argues that the reasons for the ban is educational, and social security. It is important that the teacher can see students' faces. Teaching is, except through lectures, through group work, role playing, field trips and more. Alias proposal would have limited teachers and other students' freedom. They would not be able to move freely in the classroom. In anticipation of the DO's decision the school will however allow that Alia continues to wear a niqab.

Alia continues her studies. The months go without DO deciding the case. When Alia is about to do her practical training the problem is back. Grimsta School, where she is to do her training, says no to giving her internship, instead, another school offers Alia a place with yet another compromise. She was allowed to wear the niqab during outside activities but not indoors. Alia asked if there were men working in the school and the answer was yes. Alia therefore declined the internship with the reason that she is not allowed to show her face to men.

Miriam, born in Guatemala and just arrived to Sweden. Miriam reports the Hjalmar Str?mer School in Stromsund to the discrimination board. The school does too little to fight the discrimination and harassment by Muslim men against female classmates - in adult education for immigrants (SFI) the men force the women to sit in the back of the classroom, also forcing the Muslim women to wear niqab and do not allow them to speak for themselves.

The school says Muslim men, mainly from Uzbekistan has for years relied on their belief that " it requires specific classes for men and women according to their faith", "their women must wear face veil" and "women are not allowed to speak when other men listen" . The school management did not fight. Managament?s approach was that ?The men would probably change over time.?

In Autumn 2006 the classes were still gender-segregated, but the in spring semester of 2008 Muslim men, could consider making a compromise, the men could say ok to being in the same classroom as the women if the school were to set up screens between them and the women.

Screens were set up and the women (muslim and non-muslim) were placed behind the screens. Teachers, however, were dissatisfied. Teaching became impossible when the women sat behind screens and they were still not allowed to participate in the talks by the men. Every issue that the teachers wanted to discuss the needed first to be taken up with the men.

Non muslim students were also appalled by the fact that no muslim women were allowed to be in a room alone with a teacher, no matter if they were one, two, or three women present.

School management managed to reach another compromise the screens would be removed if the women were placed at the back instead.

At this point in time, the fall of 2008, Miriam started attending the school. She refused to follow the rules and sat wherever she wanted. She was offended by how condescending the men acted towards all women and especially the Muslim. Miriam was not the first who complained to school management. Several women had pointed to gender discrimination.

Isn?t Alias and Miriam's reports two sides of the same coin?

In an email to the discrimination board Alias says that she refers her arguments to the Quran and Sunnah. This is her faith. This argument is the same that the muslim men in Hjalmar Str?mer school use. Their interpretation contains the idea that women and men can never be just friends and that's exercise qawama over the woman, that man is "supervisor" over the woman.

Near Hjalmar Str?mer the Vattudals school is located. There, the children of the adult Muslims who are Miriam's classmates attend. Girls in the 13-year-old or even younger wears the niqab. The muslim girls refuse to participate in swimming and physical education when boys are present. The muslim boys do not accept female teachers of physical education and they refuse to play or swim with the girls.

The discrimination board rules that in Miriam?s case the school has done all in its power to make Miriam comfortable in the gender segregation issue and her feeling inferior to the men because of their behavior.

Shortly before the discrimination board ruling Miriam?s school releases a statement in their annual report that during the academic year 2008/2009 one of the achievements had been that "The men and women can work together and in the same classroom."

Under the heading "Results and compliance rate" they wrote "We have succeeded in the academic year to remove the screens that uszbekik women previously sat hidden behind. However, one cannot say that the students can work together, because gender barrier makes team-oriented exercises and communicative activities in the classroom difficult / ... / contact with the teacher becomes worse if some students sit quietly behind a screen with a Niqab / ... / The men take more space, the speak loudly and freely, therefore speech therapy for the women is neglected / ... / Women also speak Swedish less in their daily lives when contacts with the surrounding community was mostly done by the men. "

Before the academic year 2009/10 one of school?s objective was "to teach students of SFI to not treat each other in a degrading manner ". I really want to emphasize that no shadow might fall on the teachers. They have had desperate working conditions and have sacrificed a lot of time, also private, to create a fair and equal manner. But they lacked support from both politicians and from the DO.

Aliases case concerning ?so adult high school is still pending. The investigation is complete and the case was delivered but the decision is not formulated.

I don?t believe that the DO will give Alia right. But I am worried.

A pilot case from 2003. Burg?rdens training center in Gothenburg, had questioned whether the school could prohibit two girls to wear burqas. National Agency for Education said If the "wearing of the burqa is a serious risk to the order in the school, then the burqa can be banned. So also for pedagogical reasons. Not otherwise.

The parliament has followed the pilot case. A no to the burqa can be admitted as exceptions to the prohibition of degrading treatment of pupils' clothing if in individual cases would significantly hinder the contact between teachers and students or to present specific risks related to laboratory or similar exercises.

Thus a ban only in exceptional cases and only for educational or practical reasons.

UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women prohibits not only discrimination but also obliges states to "alter or abolish / ... / customs and practices which constitute discrimination against women", to "change the men's and women's social and cultural patterns of behavior to the thus eliminate prejudices and customs based on the idea of the inferiority of one sex or the stiffened roles for men and women ". No authority, individuals, organizations and businesses should discriminate against women.

Why is the DO, National Agency for Education and the parliament not following the UN? What reason do they have to "forget" the most important international rules against discrimination against women?

Read the rules of the Convention quoted again and replace the "discrimination against women / ... / inferiority of one sex" with "racial / ... / inferiority of one race". With the reading ? do you think the Swedish authorities would have ?forgotten? the Convention then?

And is it a coincidence that almost all Muslim countries have made reservations to the Convention with reference to the Shariah?

Women and girls who cover their faces do it out of free will. There is an argument used many times. A burqa and niqab ban would violate the free will.

Possibly it is a violation, but the equation doesn?t add up. No one may invoke their human rights to nullify or impair somebody else?s right.. This basic rule is called "prohibition of abuse of rights".

And no, consent cannot be used as an excuse for certain actions. Slavery could not have been abolished if consent was considered. Trafficking Convention makes women consent to prostitution invalid. Female circumcision is not legal, with or without the consent of the female. Underage marriage is not legal, even though the underage person in question has given consent.

Precisely in view of the difficulty in separating genuine consent of cultural or religious habit, the European Council decided that "religion must not be accepted as an excuse for the violation of women's rights", the religious excuses to "open or subtle," infringing the rights of women must not be accepted even when the woman herself "expressly agreed" to infringement. States "must combat sectarian stereotypes of male and female roles and the States may" not accept freedom of religion or the respect of culture and tradition "as a reason for forcing including minor girls' religious dress codes".

Some claim that religious freedom is not important, it is about the right to dress as you want. But is a face-covering veil a fashion statement in general? Ku Klux Klan - is their hoods a dress? Protesters with black hoods over their face ? do they have the right to dress as they please?

Someone says okay, banning burqas and the niqab in schools and workplaces. But not in a public place.

But where we cannot meet someone face to face - it is still a public place?

Finally, some claim that it should not make a big thing of a phenomenon so rare. Those who wear burqa or niqab are few. And a prohibition is fueling Islamophobia.

Does the number matter? Should we refrain from legislation to remove the marriage of underage children because such marriages are not believed to be so many in our country?

And if the problem is so small - well, then it is difficult to understand how a ban would add to Islamophobia. Most Muslims and Islam experts believe that the niqab and burqa are impositions only in the most fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. Being opposed to prohibition of the burqa with reference to Islamophobia-threatening, it is by no means to pave the way for the prejudice that Islam itself would be extreme and fundamentalist.

The burqa ban which is now under way in France is often portrayed as Sarkozy's idea. But behind the ban is most women's rights organizations, especially those who daily work with vulnerable girls and women in immigrant dense neighborhoods, so-called banlieus. An investigation revealed that the France around 2000 burqa-bearing women, two thirds were born in France. The majority had their roots in North Africa where the custom to wear burqas never existed. Spontaneous you could think of two reasons, therefore, the "new" custom of covering her face. The fact that some Muslims have become radicalized - Talibanized if you like - just because they live in the West. Or that some Muslim women (and their families) feel special aversion to the infidels, that is, Christian or secular, men who have access to the woman's face.

It was a parliamentary commission that after an extensive investigation presented the proposal to ban the burka. The survey had consulted lawyers, human rights organizations, field workers, imams, historians and philosophers.

One of the persons asked by the French was Nadeije Laneyrie-Day, professor of art history. She referred to portraiture. Portrait painting is linked to humanism, the notion that the individual has value, its own personality, unique individuality. The face expresses the body. It is the individual's quintessence.

This is precisely what it extremely well all about. To discourage practices that de-personalise people and prevent us to meet each other as individuals. Open. Face to Face.

Zees

?O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger, and those in authority amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.? (459)

An authority which decides upon a common interpretation maybe to run the affairs of the society. Who are the men of authority??

Ayisha

?O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger, and those in authority amongst you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.? (459)

An authority which decides upon a common interpretation maybe to run the affairs of the society. Who are the men of authority??

For a child your parents would be, for an employee your boss would be

Ayisha