Which is right: ?we? or ?We??
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Peace,
?we? = Allah plus the involvement of others is the correct understanding because it doesn?t contradict Quranic verses
?We? = ?Royal We? is incorrect understanding because it contradicts Quranic verses. For example, verse 464 cited below clearly shows that forgiveness from Allah is dependent on messenger praying of forgiveness as well. Thus the use of ?We? is wrong. Please note the second AND in the verse 464. Both conditions must be satisfied simultaneously in 464 to obtain Allah?s forgiveness i.e. they ask forgiveness from Allah and the messenger prays for their forgiveness.
464 - We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed in accordance with GOD's will. Had they, when they wronged their souls, come to you and prayed to GOD for forgiveness, and the messenger prayed for their forgiveness, they would have found GOD Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Initially, I was of the opinion that Allah alone forgives sins unconditionally. And thus I was leaning towards ?Royal We? but when I read the verse 464, I changed my opinion to ?we?. In the following translation of 4153 only RK and Yusuf Ali made the correct translation.
RK 4153 - The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.
Free-Minds 4153 - The people of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from the heaven. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said ?Show us God openly!? So the lightning strike took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.
Pickthal 4153 - The people of the Scripture ask of thee that thou shouldst cause an (actual) Book to descend upon them from heaven. They asked a greater thing of Moses aforetime, for they said Show us Allah plainly. The storm of lightning seized them for their wickedness. Then (even) after that) they chose the calf (for worship) after clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And We forgave them that! And We bestowed on Moses evident authority.
Shakir 4153 - The followers of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from heaven; so indeed they demanded of Musa a greater thing than that, for they said Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa clear authority.
Yusuf Ali 4153 - The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said "Show us God in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority.
Any logical input is welcomed!
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Peace san,
How would you translate verse 4153?
Peace guest,
i haven't found any trouble with translations such as Asad's (or any of the above you provided really), i just don't see the we/We as a problem.
Actually, it is your view on 464 that caught me. I think you already realized what the context of the verse is? To me at least, it seems that the ones in error did whatever their errors were, in public. I.e. they were doing things against the message/deen that is brought by the messenger to be obeyed and thus against the society under the leadership of the messenger. Please note that I don't take the view IstiGfar as "praying to be forgiven", as in something to do with the hands up in the air, uttering words/expression of regret etc.
Instead, it is more like, ... had they IstiGfar -- seek ways for maGfira / seek ways to "fix/better" their lives from previous deteriorations/errors -- from Allah --using the message/deen/system that is brought to them through the Messenger, and obviously there is no better human to guide/assist them to seek such ways than the messenger himself, thus the messenger is involved -- ... they will find that Allah is the one who accept/guide those who return, merciful."
Sorry if it's rough, but i hope you get the idea.
Also, you may find Shabbir Ahmed's translation on the verse interesting, since he attempted to link several other related verses from the Quran itself.
Peace