Is Prophet Muhammad?s duty to deliver Quran only?: No
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Ayisha
really? did you mean to say something else there?
No! I mean exactly Hadith here.
So? does it imply what you are trying to suppose?Leyna
Don't let me get started on misspellings and grammatical mistakes in your posts.
You are welcome in good faith and not to make fun of some one.
Plus she and you often show no respect to Prophets of Allah as commanded by Allah, and I will keep correcting that, no matter how irritating it is to you.
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Ayisha
No! I mean exactly Hadith here.
So? does it imply what you are trying to suppose?So you know the prophet prayed 5 times a day, like you, from hadith, but you don't follow hadith?
You claim that the prophet 'explained' the verses and refuse to answer where these explanations are, yet one is in hadith as you have said above, and you follow the explanations as you have claimed, so yes it does imply that you follow the hadith
Plus she and you often show no respect to Prophets of Allah as commanded by Allah, and I will keep correcting that, no matter who irritating it is to you.
Who is 'she'? the cats mother?
Leyna and I have never showed anything but respect for the prophet, if you think otherwise provide proof.
you can correct my spellings its not irritating at all, although i don't understand your comment 'no matter who irritating it is to you', did you perhaps mean 'how'?
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Another example of your cheater nature
quoted by ayisha and posted at 239
Plus she and you often show no respect to Prophets of Allah as commanded by Allah, and I will keep correcting that, no matter who irritating it is to you.
making bold the typo,
However my last edit in the post was at 235, four minutes prior to your post.
Plus she and you often show no respect to Prophets of Allah as commanded by Allah, and I will keep correcting that, no matter how irritating it is to you.
Ayisha
So you know the prophet prayed 5 times a day, like you, from hadith, but you don't follow hadith?
You have to go back a little in thread, to look at what was being discussed.
Ayisha
Leyna and I have never showed anything but respect for the prophet, if you think otherwise provide proof.
If you remove "but" from the sentence and add "full" with respect it would make sense.
Leyna , Ayisha, Samia and Egypt, same style, same arguments,hmmmmm.. I smell something fishy.
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Another example of your cheater nature
quoted by ayisha and posted at 239
making bold the typo,However my last edit in the post was at 235, four minutes prior to your post.
so it took me 4 minutes to finish posting what I posted. if I had quoted your edited post I would have had nothing to say on that matter as I saw it when I had completed my post. No 'cheating' Raj, slow posting due to doing a few things at once.So you cannot show anywhere were Layna or I have showed any disrespect to the prophet.
So you know the prophet prayed 5 times a day, like you, from hadith, but you don't follow hadith?
You have to go back a little in thread, to look at what was being discussed.
I have read all that was discussed, that's why I replied to it. That is what you said.Ayisha
If you remove "but" from the sentence and add "full" with respect it would make sense.
It makes perfect sense as it is and please do not try correcting what I mean to say as well as my typo's. If I do as you say there is will make NO sense at all, look."Leyna and I have never showed anything full respect for the prophet, if you think otherwise provide proof."
see? no sense at all and you still cannot provide any proof again.
Leyna , Ayisha, Samia and Egypt, same style, same arguments,hmmmmm.. I smell something fishy.
Then go and take a shower. -
Peace,
noon d Plume
from, history, from Hadith, transfer from generation to generation.
I will be more than glad to know; HOW do you say that he did not prayed Five times a day?
Even a single Aayt from Quran will suffice.Did I say/write a particular number?
Historically there is little from that time which mostly contradicts tradition which contradicts itself.
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Reliable are these ?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_islamic/fig30_kufi01.htm
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_islamic/fig32_kufi03.htm
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noon de Plume
Did I say/write a particular number?
Historically there is little from that time which mostly contradicts tradition which contradicts itself.
No, you did not, but I asked you a question after answering yours.
I actually mentioned three sources, and you see 90% more Muslims those who pray, Pray 5 times a day.
I don't mean to say that if majority prays 5 times a day it must be the correct number, that is why I asked you, how many times shall we pray, if we pray according to Quran?noon De Plume
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Reliable are these ?
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_islamic/fig30_kufi01.htm
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_islamic/fig32_kufi03.htm
these are in relation to what?
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I actually mentioned three sources, and you see 90% more Muslims those who pray, Pray 5 times a day.
You said history, hadith and passed down through generations. these are all the same thing. History comes mostly from Hadith which apparently was passed down through generations.
I don't mean to say that if majority prays 5 times a day it must be the correct number, that is why I asked you, how many times shall we pray, if we pray according to Quran?
what else would you pray according to though?guest said the prophet prayed 5 times a day, noon asked how do you know this and you replied from history, hadith and blah blah, so you must have agreed the prophet prayed 5 times a day to tell us where you know this from.
)
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Ayisha
You said history, hadith and passed down through generations. these are all the same thing. History comes mostly from Hadith which apparently was passed down through generations.
are you serious? these are same things? &
I now certainly understand what your problem is.Ayisha
guest said the prophet prayed 5 times a day, noon asked how do you know this and you replied from history, hadith and blah blah, so you must have agreed the prophet prayed 5 times a day to tell us where you know this from.
Yet another pearl from Ayisha.
Aslam says Sun rises from east
Majid How do you know?
Rajah through daily observance, History and generation's pass on.
Ayisha therefore you (Rajah) must agree that SUN rises from east.Ayisha you are one character yay
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Ayisha
are you serious? these are same things? &
I now certainly understand what your problem is.Ok split them and define each one then tell me what my problem is.
Aslam says Sun rises from east
Majid How do you know?
Rajah through daily observance, History and generation's pass on.
Ayisha therefore you (Rajah) must agree that SUN rises from east.Sun rising from the east is not something one needs to look at history for or to have passed down through generations, it was also that way that people thought the earth was flat and you would fall off the edge.
so you dont agree on 5 prayers? Raj this is so obvious what you're doing to anyone reading. You have spent ages trying hard to convince about other 'explanations' and flatly refuse to say where these explanations are or where they have been extracted to and now you're trying to say hadith is nothing to do with history or passing things on from generation to generation. You have claimed you dont follow hadith but you do follow and believe in 'passing from generation to generation' and 'history' so you would rather follow what has been passed down to you than what is in Gods book as pure. Maybe you really have no idea that you follow hadith?? Yes that is possible, my husband didnt have a clue thats what he was following either.
Ayisha you are one character yay
;D ;D I know
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Ayisha
Maybe you really have no idea that you follow hadith?? Yes that is possible, my husband didnt have a clue thats what he was following either.
Poor your husband? He needs a big brain!
Kudos to your husband handshake I would like to meet that great man!WAY FINDER
dear what happened? I am waiting for your reply?
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WAY FINDER
dear what happened? I am waiting for your reply?
He is obviously busy Raj, but as you are not and are still here, how about the reply I have been waiting for from YOU for pages and pages that you keep ignoring?
Where are the explanations to the verses that Muhammed gave?
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Ayisha
Where are the explanations to the verses that Muhammed gave?
If you like to give it a try, since Way Finder seems unable to respond, for obvious reasons.
The moment you will answer what I was asking from WAY FINDER, you will know automatically what is the explanation of Muhammad Peace is upon him of different verses, if not I will show you. -
Ayisha
If you like to give it a try, since Way Finder seems unable to respond, for obvious reasons.
The moment you will answer what I was asking from WAY FINDER, you will know automatically what is the explanation of Muhammad Peace is upon him of different verses, if not I will show you.So again you refuse and now want me to search for the questions YOU want answered from SOMEONE ELSE and answer them for YOU before you will consider answering a question I raised long before you raised any to wayfinder?
No, answer my question, where are the explanations you claim Muhammed made for each of the verses. Please do not ignore it or try to brush it off again.
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You said history, hadith and passed down through generations. these are all the same thing. History comes mostly from Hadith which apparently was passed down through generations.
what else would you pray according to though?Not everyone considers them to be the same. According to Fazlur Rahman, established tradition without hadith was one of the reasons for backward isnad growth. His argument was that the 2nd and 3rd generation of Muslims learnt Islam and practises from the sahaba through natural and fluid learning, and were not akin to demanding hadith to justify their actions. This only started happening post Imam Shafi'i who helped convince the Muslims that only actions that can be backed through an unbroken chain of narrators has any legitimate place in codified Islam. The point Rahman is making here is that the "sunnah" was established and passed on long before any hadith science developed. The teachings of the Prophet were a living sunnah and not a sunnah of verbatim transmissions. Once the hadith agenda kicked in, those Muslims who had learnt their Islam through the sahaba without hadith were now presented with a problem they had to either produce a hadith going back to the prophet justifying their practises or they had to abandon their position and submit to opposing opinions who had hadith. Hence the fabrication of hadith and backward growth of isnad.
I think what Rahman is pointing out is that living tradition is far more resilient than narrations. Fuqaha of the past recognised this, hence why Abu Hanifa and his student Malik considered the normative practise of the Medinians to be a good guide to what the Prophet's sunnah was, regardless of hadith. The argument is that the sunnah of the Prophet would have been resilient and would have survived almost in its entirety for a few generations without the need of hadith. The community of Muslims would have kept the sunnah alive through their actions. Perhaps this is what Raj means when he says history?
I do tend to gravitate towards this view, although it has its obvious flaws. Innovations in religion are just as resilient as authentic sunnah. So how can we be sure that the early Medinians didn't add 3 daytime prayers to their religious practices? If they did, and it caught on, then Imam Malik et al would naturally conclude that the Prophet would have very likely to have prayed 5 times a day even though this might just be an innovation. I think for those who wish to follow this kind of natural sunnah, they must do so under the firm belief that these actions may not be from the Prophet. That way, you can follow the Qur'an in its entirety and not be forced to believe the community practise is on the same level.
guest said the prophet prayed 5 times a day, noon asked how do you know this and you replied from history, hadith and blah blah, so you must have agreed the prophet prayed 5 times a day to tell us where you know this from.
According to Rahman, we can know this by the established practise of early Muslims through historical records and not necessarily through hadith. That early tradition indicates a 5 prayer practise of the Prophet.
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It is not possible for Ayisha, or anyone else for that matter, to follow the Qur'an in exactly the same way Muhammad did. Neither is it desirable. We live in a different time, different culture, different circumstances, so it would not make sense to implement the wisdom of the Qur'an in exactly the same way a prophet in the seventh century in the Arabian desert did.
Truth vs. falsehood is independent of time.
Allah?s system does not change. Therefore, according to your logic it is an old system. Are you implying that we should lose it because it is old?
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I asked how YOU do it, considering you said the verses are not 'correctly understood' and that the 'correct understanding' has been preserved for us and that is the way Muhammed did it.
I seem to recall a thread that said wipe the foot and not wash it. It has nothing to do with dry ablution. Your way gives rise to such nonsense. Go follow a leader since you are not one.
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Not everyone considers them to be the same. According to Fazlur Rahman, established tradition without hadith was one of the reasons for backward isnad growth. His argument was that the 2nd and 3rd generation of Muslims learnt Islam and practises from the sahaba through natural and fluid learning, and were not akin to demanding hadith to justify their actions. This only started happening post Imam Shafi'i who helped convince the Muslims that only actions that can be backed through an unbroken chain of narrators has any legitimate place in codified Islam. The point Rahman is making here is that the "sunnah" was established and passed on long before any hadith science developed. The teachings of the Prophet were a living sunnah and not a sunnah of verbatim transmissions. Once the hadith agenda kicked in, those Muslims who had learnt their Islam through the sahaba without hadith were now presented with a problem they had to either produce a hadith going back to the prophet justifying their practises or they had to abandon their position and submit to opposing opinions who had hadith. Hence the fabrication of hadith and backward growth of isnad.
Yes i agree that prophet Muhammed was living sunnah, the sunnah of ALLAH, not the sunnah of Muhammed. Muhammed followd Quran only. I also agree with backward growth of hadith as in 'this is what we practice now lets make it go back to the prophet' whether it did or not.I think what Rahman is pointing out is that living tradition is far more resilient than narrations. Fuqaha of the past recognised this, hence why Abu Hanifa and his student Malik considered the normative practise of the Medinians to be a good guide to what the Prophet's sunnah was, regardless of hadith. The argument is that the sunnah of the Prophet would have been resilient and would have survived almost in its entirety for a few generations without the need of hadith. The community of Muslims would have kept the sunnah alive through their actions. Perhaps this is what Raj means when he says history?
yes malik tended to look at the people of Medina BUT surely the 'good guide' is still Quran?
Who knows what Raj means but the community of Muslims very fast started to add and change what they thought of as the sunnah and this is why malik prefered the people of medina, which by his time could have also added and changed a few things too. different sects with different ideas where everywhere before the prophet was cold in his grave as the biggest problem, that was there while he was alive and has always been the biggest problem, again reared its head, and that was mixings of old paganism and old 'religious' traditions BACK into things.
From The Four Imams
In Malik's time there were many political upheavals but he refused to have anything to do with them and enjoyed the calm of a thoughtful scholar. In his time there were also many arguments about about the fatwas of the companions and the followers and their various merits. Malik preferred the position of the people of Medina. He made holding to it one of the basic principles of his method which he taught about in his lessons and wrote about in his letters, as we saw in his letter to Al-Layth. It was in his time too that various sects and erroneous ideas arose which we should note briefly along with Malik's view of them.Abu Hanifa met people from various Islamic sects and studied with some of them and examined their opinions.
the sect names are
Shia
Saba'ites
kaysanites
Zaydites
Imamites
The Ithna 'asharites (twelvers)
The Isma'ilis
The Kharijites
Murji'ites
Jabarites
Mu'tazilitesmany came about directly after the prophets death when the Arabs mixed again with people of the ancient religions.
I do tend to gravitate towards this view, although it has its obvious flaws. Innovations in religion are just as resilient as authentic sunnah. So how can we be sure that the early Medinians didn't add 3 daytime prayers to their religious practices? If they did, and it caught on, then Imam Malik et al would naturally conclude that the Prophet would have very likely to have prayed 5 times a day even though this might just be an innovation. I think for those who wish to follow this kind of natural sunnah, they must do so under the firm belief that these actions may not be from the Prophet. That way, you can follow the Qur'an in its entirety and not be forced to believe the community practise is on the same level.
ahh, posted above before digesting this sorry.So are you suggesting if people follow what is possibly or not, something the prophet did or not, that they have to have the firm belief that they may be following something NOT from Islam at all?
Then they are surely following conjecture aren't they? they are making an idol to follow when what HE followed is in the book that we do have.According to Rahman, we can know this by the established practise of early Muslims through historical records and not necessarily through hadith. That early tradition indicates a 5 prayer practise of the Prophet.
But early tradition also shows he would often pray all night long, how many is that counted as or is it one? he was off meditating and praying before he even received any revelation so there was already an established 'following' of something among the people which is deeper than that of a supposed 'new' religion. People will naturally be very fast to add any part of this that they will be convinced should be followed, this is exactly what the Jews and Christians did and exactly what was warned about in Quran. There is little history of islam that did not come from 'hadith' of some sort, even if it be passed from generation to generation. Here in Egypt they are SURE that FGM is Islamic, its not and was never practiced in Arabia but has always been practiced in Africa, so that is an old religious tradition that has been added to islam and yes there is a hadith from the prophet to 'prove' it. Why would that question have even been asked of the prophet if this practice never happened in Arabia?