Is Prophet Muhammad?s duty to deliver Quran only?: No
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I actually mentioned three sources, and you see 90% more Muslims those who pray, Pray 5 times a day.
You said history, hadith and passed down through generations. these are all the same thing. History comes mostly from Hadith which apparently was passed down through generations.
I don't mean to say that if majority prays 5 times a day it must be the correct number, that is why I asked you, how many times shall we pray, if we pray according to Quran?
what else would you pray according to though?guest said the prophet prayed 5 times a day, noon asked how do you know this and you replied from history, hadith and blah blah, so you must have agreed the prophet prayed 5 times a day to tell us where you know this from.
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Ayisha
You said history, hadith and passed down through generations. these are all the same thing. History comes mostly from Hadith which apparently was passed down through generations.
are you serious? these are same things? &
I now certainly understand what your problem is.Ayisha
guest said the prophet prayed 5 times a day, noon asked how do you know this and you replied from history, hadith and blah blah, so you must have agreed the prophet prayed 5 times a day to tell us where you know this from.
Yet another pearl from Ayisha.
Aslam says Sun rises from east
Majid How do you know?
Rajah through daily observance, History and generation's pass on.
Ayisha therefore you (Rajah) must agree that SUN rises from east.Ayisha you are one character yay
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Ayisha
are you serious? these are same things? &
I now certainly understand what your problem is.Ok split them and define each one then tell me what my problem is.
Aslam says Sun rises from east
Majid How do you know?
Rajah through daily observance, History and generation's pass on.
Ayisha therefore you (Rajah) must agree that SUN rises from east.Sun rising from the east is not something one needs to look at history for or to have passed down through generations, it was also that way that people thought the earth was flat and you would fall off the edge.
so you dont agree on 5 prayers? Raj this is so obvious what you're doing to anyone reading. You have spent ages trying hard to convince about other 'explanations' and flatly refuse to say where these explanations are or where they have been extracted to and now you're trying to say hadith is nothing to do with history or passing things on from generation to generation. You have claimed you dont follow hadith but you do follow and believe in 'passing from generation to generation' and 'history' so you would rather follow what has been passed down to you than what is in Gods book as pure. Maybe you really have no idea that you follow hadith?? Yes that is possible, my husband didnt have a clue thats what he was following either.
Ayisha you are one character yay
;D ;D I know
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Ayisha
Maybe you really have no idea that you follow hadith?? Yes that is possible, my husband didnt have a clue thats what he was following either.
Poor your husband? He needs a big brain!
Kudos to your husband handshake I would like to meet that great man!WAY FINDER
dear what happened? I am waiting for your reply?
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WAY FINDER
dear what happened? I am waiting for your reply?
He is obviously busy Raj, but as you are not and are still here, how about the reply I have been waiting for from YOU for pages and pages that you keep ignoring?
Where are the explanations to the verses that Muhammed gave?
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Ayisha
Where are the explanations to the verses that Muhammed gave?
If you like to give it a try, since Way Finder seems unable to respond, for obvious reasons.
The moment you will answer what I was asking from WAY FINDER, you will know automatically what is the explanation of Muhammad Peace is upon him of different verses, if not I will show you. -
Ayisha
If you like to give it a try, since Way Finder seems unable to respond, for obvious reasons.
The moment you will answer what I was asking from WAY FINDER, you will know automatically what is the explanation of Muhammad Peace is upon him of different verses, if not I will show you.So again you refuse and now want me to search for the questions YOU want answered from SOMEONE ELSE and answer them for YOU before you will consider answering a question I raised long before you raised any to wayfinder?
No, answer my question, where are the explanations you claim Muhammed made for each of the verses. Please do not ignore it or try to brush it off again.
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You said history, hadith and passed down through generations. these are all the same thing. History comes mostly from Hadith which apparently was passed down through generations.
what else would you pray according to though?Not everyone considers them to be the same. According to Fazlur Rahman, established tradition without hadith was one of the reasons for backward isnad growth. His argument was that the 2nd and 3rd generation of Muslims learnt Islam and practises from the sahaba through natural and fluid learning, and were not akin to demanding hadith to justify their actions. This only started happening post Imam Shafi'i who helped convince the Muslims that only actions that can be backed through an unbroken chain of narrators has any legitimate place in codified Islam. The point Rahman is making here is that the "sunnah" was established and passed on long before any hadith science developed. The teachings of the Prophet were a living sunnah and not a sunnah of verbatim transmissions. Once the hadith agenda kicked in, those Muslims who had learnt their Islam through the sahaba without hadith were now presented with a problem they had to either produce a hadith going back to the prophet justifying their practises or they had to abandon their position and submit to opposing opinions who had hadith. Hence the fabrication of hadith and backward growth of isnad.
I think what Rahman is pointing out is that living tradition is far more resilient than narrations. Fuqaha of the past recognised this, hence why Abu Hanifa and his student Malik considered the normative practise of the Medinians to be a good guide to what the Prophet's sunnah was, regardless of hadith. The argument is that the sunnah of the Prophet would have been resilient and would have survived almost in its entirety for a few generations without the need of hadith. The community of Muslims would have kept the sunnah alive through their actions. Perhaps this is what Raj means when he says history?
I do tend to gravitate towards this view, although it has its obvious flaws. Innovations in religion are just as resilient as authentic sunnah. So how can we be sure that the early Medinians didn't add 3 daytime prayers to their religious practices? If they did, and it caught on, then Imam Malik et al would naturally conclude that the Prophet would have very likely to have prayed 5 times a day even though this might just be an innovation. I think for those who wish to follow this kind of natural sunnah, they must do so under the firm belief that these actions may not be from the Prophet. That way, you can follow the Qur'an in its entirety and not be forced to believe the community practise is on the same level.
guest said the prophet prayed 5 times a day, noon asked how do you know this and you replied from history, hadith and blah blah, so you must have agreed the prophet prayed 5 times a day to tell us where you know this from.
According to Rahman, we can know this by the established practise of early Muslims through historical records and not necessarily through hadith. That early tradition indicates a 5 prayer practise of the Prophet.
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It is not possible for Ayisha, or anyone else for that matter, to follow the Qur'an in exactly the same way Muhammad did. Neither is it desirable. We live in a different time, different culture, different circumstances, so it would not make sense to implement the wisdom of the Qur'an in exactly the same way a prophet in the seventh century in the Arabian desert did.
Truth vs. falsehood is independent of time.
Allah?s system does not change. Therefore, according to your logic it is an old system. Are you implying that we should lose it because it is old?
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I asked how YOU do it, considering you said the verses are not 'correctly understood' and that the 'correct understanding' has been preserved for us and that is the way Muhammed did it.
I seem to recall a thread that said wipe the foot and not wash it. It has nothing to do with dry ablution. Your way gives rise to such nonsense. Go follow a leader since you are not one.
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Not everyone considers them to be the same. According to Fazlur Rahman, established tradition without hadith was one of the reasons for backward isnad growth. His argument was that the 2nd and 3rd generation of Muslims learnt Islam and practises from the sahaba through natural and fluid learning, and were not akin to demanding hadith to justify their actions. This only started happening post Imam Shafi'i who helped convince the Muslims that only actions that can be backed through an unbroken chain of narrators has any legitimate place in codified Islam. The point Rahman is making here is that the "sunnah" was established and passed on long before any hadith science developed. The teachings of the Prophet were a living sunnah and not a sunnah of verbatim transmissions. Once the hadith agenda kicked in, those Muslims who had learnt their Islam through the sahaba without hadith were now presented with a problem they had to either produce a hadith going back to the prophet justifying their practises or they had to abandon their position and submit to opposing opinions who had hadith. Hence the fabrication of hadith and backward growth of isnad.
Yes i agree that prophet Muhammed was living sunnah, the sunnah of ALLAH, not the sunnah of Muhammed. Muhammed followd Quran only. I also agree with backward growth of hadith as in 'this is what we practice now lets make it go back to the prophet' whether it did or not.I think what Rahman is pointing out is that living tradition is far more resilient than narrations. Fuqaha of the past recognised this, hence why Abu Hanifa and his student Malik considered the normative practise of the Medinians to be a good guide to what the Prophet's sunnah was, regardless of hadith. The argument is that the sunnah of the Prophet would have been resilient and would have survived almost in its entirety for a few generations without the need of hadith. The community of Muslims would have kept the sunnah alive through their actions. Perhaps this is what Raj means when he says history?
yes malik tended to look at the people of Medina BUT surely the 'good guide' is still Quran?
Who knows what Raj means but the community of Muslims very fast started to add and change what they thought of as the sunnah and this is why malik prefered the people of medina, which by his time could have also added and changed a few things too. different sects with different ideas where everywhere before the prophet was cold in his grave as the biggest problem, that was there while he was alive and has always been the biggest problem, again reared its head, and that was mixings of old paganism and old 'religious' traditions BACK into things.
From The Four Imams
In Malik's time there were many political upheavals but he refused to have anything to do with them and enjoyed the calm of a thoughtful scholar. In his time there were also many arguments about about the fatwas of the companions and the followers and their various merits. Malik preferred the position of the people of Medina. He made holding to it one of the basic principles of his method which he taught about in his lessons and wrote about in his letters, as we saw in his letter to Al-Layth. It was in his time too that various sects and erroneous ideas arose which we should note briefly along with Malik's view of them.Abu Hanifa met people from various Islamic sects and studied with some of them and examined their opinions.
the sect names are
Shia
Saba'ites
kaysanites
Zaydites
Imamites
The Ithna 'asharites (twelvers)
The Isma'ilis
The Kharijites
Murji'ites
Jabarites
Mu'tazilitesmany came about directly after the prophets death when the Arabs mixed again with people of the ancient religions.
I do tend to gravitate towards this view, although it has its obvious flaws. Innovations in religion are just as resilient as authentic sunnah. So how can we be sure that the early Medinians didn't add 3 daytime prayers to their religious practices? If they did, and it caught on, then Imam Malik et al would naturally conclude that the Prophet would have very likely to have prayed 5 times a day even though this might just be an innovation. I think for those who wish to follow this kind of natural sunnah, they must do so under the firm belief that these actions may not be from the Prophet. That way, you can follow the Qur'an in its entirety and not be forced to believe the community practise is on the same level.
ahh, posted above before digesting this sorry.So are you suggesting if people follow what is possibly or not, something the prophet did or not, that they have to have the firm belief that they may be following something NOT from Islam at all?
Then they are surely following conjecture aren't they? they are making an idol to follow when what HE followed is in the book that we do have.According to Rahman, we can know this by the established practise of early Muslims through historical records and not necessarily through hadith. That early tradition indicates a 5 prayer practise of the Prophet.
But early tradition also shows he would often pray all night long, how many is that counted as or is it one? he was off meditating and praying before he even received any revelation so there was already an established 'following' of something among the people which is deeper than that of a supposed 'new' religion. People will naturally be very fast to add any part of this that they will be convinced should be followed, this is exactly what the Jews and Christians did and exactly what was warned about in Quran. There is little history of islam that did not come from 'hadith' of some sort, even if it be passed from generation to generation. Here in Egypt they are SURE that FGM is Islamic, its not and was never practiced in Arabia but has always been practiced in Africa, so that is an old religious tradition that has been added to islam and yes there is a hadith from the prophet to 'prove' it. Why would that question have even been asked of the prophet if this practice never happened in Arabia?
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I'm in process, the same with any subject matter (e.g. inheritance, fasting, timings, etc.);
Take it then you follow opinion/s handed down from a particular clergy of long ago and not careful Qur'an study?Peace Noon de Plume,
I follow the teaching of Prophet Muhammad that has been preserved by Allah. I also follow leaders/king appointed by Allah. I also follow the scholar. If I am a believer then I have to do this otherwise I would be violating the orders in the Quran. By studying the Quran carefully, I came to above conclusion.
2247 - Their prophet said to them, "GOD has appointed Taloot (Saul) to be your king." They said, "How can he have kingship over us when we are more worthy of kingship than he; he is not even rich?" He said, "GOD has chosen him over you, and has blessed him with an abundance in knowledge and in body." GOD grants His kingship to whomever He wills. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient.
9122 - When the believers mobilize, not all of them shall do so. A few from each group shall mobilize by devoting their time to studying the religion. Thus, they can pass the knowledge on to their people when they return, that they may remain religiously informed.
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I asked how YOU do it, considering you said the verses are not 'correctly understood' and that the 'correct understanding' has been preserved for us and that is the way Muhammed did it.
I seem to recall a thread that said wipe the foot and not wash it. It has nothing to do with dry ablution.
I do not recall the thread so I was obviously not involved in it nor was I the one that said that, so this reply to avoid answering the question is just smoke to avoid answering again
Your way gives rise to such nonsense.
my way? My way is in the clear verse you posted. The question was, what is YOUR way that YOU claimed was NOT clear in Quran and Muhammed gave explanation for, remember?Go follow a leader since you are not one.
My leader is Allah. I never claimed to be a leader.
Now tell how YOU do wudu and stop avoiding the question and throwing insults because you feel cornered.
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How can you be so sure I am not doing it the same as the prophets did? You dont even know HOW I do any of it, you have based all your insuts on assumptions. How do you KNOW any of this? how do you KNOW how many times he prayed and how many I pray?
I am aware of your silly unrighteous tactic and tricks. That will not work with me. In fact any righteous person will detect your phoniness right way.
A righteous person would have said this is how I do it and that it consistent with Prophet Muhammad?s way for such and such reason. Allah has already exposed you for what you are.
Learn from leaders and righteous person as you are unable to comprehend the Quran correctly.
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I am aware of your silly unrighteous tactic and tricks. That will not work with me. In fact any righteous person will detect your phoniness right way.
tactics and tricks like asking questions you refuse to answer you mean? ;DA righteous person would have said this is how I do it and that it consistent with Prophet Muhammad?s way for such and such reason. Allah has already exposed you for what you are.
seems like you have just exposed yourself for what you are. laugh You were the one that made a claim and I was the one that asked the question and you are the one that has NOT said 'this is how I do it'   -
Yes i agree that prophet Muhammed was living sunnah, the sunnah of ALLAH, not the sunnah of Muhammed. Muhammed followd Quran only. I also agree with backward growth of hadith as in 'this is what we practice now lets make it go back to the prophet' whether it did or not.
I'm using the word sunnah here as the pre-Islamic Arabs would have used it i.e. culture or normative practice. So the normative practice of the Prophet would have been preserved by the sahaba and their progeny by imitation and not through verbatim transmissions.
yes malik tended to look at the people of Medina BUT surely the 'good guide' is still Quran?
Best guide, you mean.
I think we both agree that the Prophet understood and implemented the Qur'an the way a Prophet should. If you were alive during his time you would no doubt have attempted to copy his ways and understanding of the Qur'an. Qur'an can never be understood in a vacuum, it needs humans to use their natural and acquired knowledge to make sense of it. So for the early Medinians, that extra knowledge came from the established practice of their forefathers, i.e. the sahaba. They didn't need hadith, nor did they seek it. The sunnah of the Prophet was alive and vibrant as far as they were concerned.
Who knows what Raj means but the community of Muslims very fast started to add and change what they thought of as the sunnah and this is why malik prefered the people of medina, which by his time could have also added and changed a few things too. different sects with different ideas where everywhere before the prophet was cold in his grave as the biggest problem, that was there while he was alive and has always been the biggest problem, again reared its head, and that was mixings of old paganism and old 'religious' traditions BACK into things.
Hence, this is a game of percentages and perceptions. How likely was it that the early Medinians started making 3 extra prayers obligatory? How likely was it that old pagan practises re-appeared into the normal practise of those Muslims? It goes back to my point of trying to understand the Qur'an as an isolated book. Muslims may choose to use the living sunnah as a framework for how they make sense of the Qur'an. Muslims may decide that the chance of gross innovation in Medina was small, and so will use this as a reference point.
ahh, posted above before digesting this sorry.
No problem.
So are you suggesting if people follow what is possibly or not, something the prophet did or not, that they have to have the firm belief that they may be following something NOT from Islam at all?
I think it's about supplementary knowledge and the wider human experience. We can never truly appreciate the Quranic verses about orbiting planets without science, particularly telescopes and space travel. Does that mean we're following something not from Islam (i.e. science)? No, of course not. We're using other forms of knowledge to shed light on the Quran. But we must firmly believe that scientific discoveries cannot explain Quran completely, and scientific knowledge is subject to change. So this is how I understand the sunnah of the Prophet. We have a limited and somewhat flawed grasp of what his sunnah was, but through this historical account we may choose to interpret Quran. I see nothing wrong with this, as long as we acknowledge that just like scientific discoveries, sunnah cannot completely explain Quran and will always be subject to revision.
Then they are surely following conjecture aren't they? they are making an idol to follow when what HE followed is in the book that we do have.
Conjecture? I suppose so, but again I look at it differently. Those who follow the sunnah are (or should be) using it as spectacles to look at the Quran. It may not be entirely accurate, but they should be referencing it against the Quran anyway. There's no way of doing anything unQuranic with this method. Again, it's like putting on ?science spectacles? when reading verses about planets. Or putting on ?history spectacles? when reading about the Romans in Quran. We do it unwittingly, but we always understand the Quran by using other types of natural truths. I include the living sunnah or established Islamic practises within these other types of knowledge.
But early tradition also shows he would often pray all night long, how many is that counted as or is it one? he was off meditating and praying before he even received any revelation so there was already an established 'following' of something among the people which is deeper than that of a supposed 'new' religion. People will naturally be very fast to add any part of this that they will be convinced should be followed, this is exactly what the Jews and Christians did and exactly what was warned about in Quran.
And as a rejecter of sunnah you are justified in your position. We're suggesting that the early Muslims had a far more flexible approach to the sunnah and were not interested in ossifying it the way post-Shafi'i scholars did. That flexibility can be re-established today. There are Muslims today who go through the hadith literature and reject those that contradict Qur'an, the spirit of Islam and those that are no longer relevant. You may argue ?well what's the point of hadith then?? but that would be missing the point. These Muslims who embrace that kind of sunnah are far more flexible and are still using the Quran as the ultimate source of truth. Me and you may not find five prayers in the Quran, but ?living sunnis? (followers of a living sunnah) may find some obscure references because they have chosen to use the established tradition as supplementary knowledge. Again, I see no problem with this.