Scholarly article proves earliest Muslims only did salat twice per day!
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You were asked to provide proof, which you haven't done.
Quranic PROOF!
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
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he can't, he doesnt do proof just insults and tells you satan has you and various other inventions he makes up, even after claiming this
A righteous person would have said this is how I do it and that it consistent with Prophet Muhammad?s way for such and such reason. Allah has already exposed you for what you are.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601295.210And you are a lost cause. You cannot comprehend! Allah has sealed your heart!
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Quranic PROOF!
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
I have told you before but you are blind to the verses
21.72 And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).
your imams in verse 21.73 are Isaac and Jacob, open you eyes and stop trying to mislead people
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And you are a lost cause. You cannot comprehend! Allah has sealed your heart!
I seem to comprehend a lot more than you do who cant even look at the preceeding verse to see who the 'them' is that He made Imams and think every Imam gets some message from God! Seems the seal is on your heart and eyes
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I have told you before but you are blind to the verses
21.72 And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).
your imams in verse 21.73 are Isaac and Jacob, open you eyes and stop trying to mislead people
I keep telling you that you do not comprehend! And you keep validating my claim again and again. You love to be a laughingstock. Bukhari?s comments on women are directed to people like you. You give bad name to women!
Here goes the baby step again. Hope it sinks in your head.
Yes, Allah taught Isaac and Jacob the religious rituals like salat and zakat. And his follower learned from him and passed on. That is how Allah teaches us salat, via imams. If the salat is to be learned from a book then there would be no need to teach Isaac .. the salat. In fact this would contradict verse 2173. And that is what you are trying to preach here Quran is a contradictory book. See how Allah exposes your hypocrisy.
You advocate a leaderless system, a satanic system, a chaotic system. This system will take you right to hell. A deserving place for those who do not take heed.
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I keep telling you that you do not comprehend! And you keep validating my claim again and again. You love to be a laughingstock. Bukhari?s comments on women are directed to people like you. You give bad name to women!
Here goes the baby step again. Hope it sinks in your head.
Yes, Allah taught Isaac and Jacob the religious rituals like salat and zakat. And his follower learned from him and passed on. That is how Allah teaches us salat, via imams. If the salat is to be learned from a book then there would be no need to teach Isaac .. the salat. In fact this would contradict verse 2173. And that is what you are trying to preach here Quran is a contradictory book. See how Allah exposes your hypocrisy.
You advocate a leaderless system, a satanic system, a chaotic system. This system will take you right to hell. A deserving place for those who do not take heed.
Oh please! Stop with the self righteous act and unrighteous slander and use your brain for once!
At least you had to admit the verses you are misleading with to 'prove' we learn from IMAMS was actually talking about Isaac and Jacob and not the Imam at the mosque and that has pinched so much you have to start with the satanic crap.
I advocate what Quran advocates you satan following unrighteous biggoted hypocrite.
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Quranic PROOF!
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
you were saying before that you learn salat from watching your family and neighbours. Oh absolutely no room for error there is there, was dad an iman according to you?
I keep telling you that you do not comprehend! And you keep validating my claim again and again. You love to be a laughingstock. Bukhari?s comments on women are directed to people like you. You give bad name to women!
You say this then in the next sentence you agree with what I said. You have a sickness and you really need to sort it out.It is very well documented here how many times I have asked YOU to explain something but you never have and all I get is verbal abuse. I have asked you to teach me and all I get is verbal abuse. You are telling me I don't comprehend something you have not explained and that is totally against Quran. If I ask you then you should explain and all you do is abuse and insult. Other people are now experiencing the same abuse and lack o answers. You confirm each post that I am so thankful I found and read Quran before I met any people like you and I thank God daily for that. I wonder how many you have turned away from Islam by your attitude, your master will be so proud.
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What proof do you have other than muslim practices around the world today, pray 5 times a day? what proof do you have that this is what the prophet instituted? Nothing other than this is what people do today?
I?m sure his followers continued to follow the Prophets way, i?m sure other followers also included innovations in following the prophets way.
So you believe the ritual salat is 100% accurate? In all aspects?
As well as hajj practices? 100%?I?m not sure how much on Islamic history you have read though people distorted practices to suit their need/wants.
Lots of people took Quran as a joke and preferred poetry over it. So in regards to 533 it might have moved some hearts not necessarily all.
You make the assumption that in the time people were so genuine there were many hypocrites and fasdeen.
It?s preserved because that?s your belief without any proof other than muslims in ALL generations must have practiced the same salat because they?d go to Hell otherwise and other muslims would have beat them.
i?m not destroying nothing, truth will always prevail in the end. What you fail to realise is the logic of your argument.
If you read a book and there is a word you have no idea what it means God forbid you from looking it up! Wrong is Wrong! You cannot think! you can only pray to God for guidance! Guidance for what that word means.
See the logic? Who says using a dictionary is the sole way, the only way and the best way?
No, you?re assuming root meaning is the teacher of the Quran. If one is imperfect and seeks help by God?s will where is the wrong there?
Also fully proficient in Arabic doesn?t mean proficient in Quran. So no my logic isn?t faulty it?s your assumption that is faulty.
Is your mind free from error? does shaytan not whisper to you? Are you ma3soom? should I ask you for guidance with your special connection to God? Who validates your logic? The masses? Or wait.. you said majority of people are going to hell..
I tell you the dictionary is a tool, you say it?s a hadith it?s mockery. This whole discourse is a hadith. The Quran is hadith. The books in the library are hadith, a conversation you have with a muslim or anyone is hadith. You?re point? Do you think hadith = evil? If you do you need to sort out your logic and understanding of hadith. Tell me how do you understand any of the Quran ANY OF THE QURAN? Who taught you it? Do you know Arabic? Who taught them language? Is the language classical? What English interpretations do you use? Are they free from satan? Do you just read mindlessly and aim to get guidance? You take mockery of what God ordained. God didn?t create the universe for us to look at it and do nothing.
There are good and sincere thinking and bad thinking. The Quran is for good thinking people.
Are you calling me bad thinking? Some interesting covert accusations you have, very interesting that you can actually know my thinking and it is for ?good thinking people? so the assumption is Quran is only for SOME people not ALL mankind. Interesting indeed.
Your action shows that you are not relying on Allah totally.
Your response shows the lack of comprehension you have. If you have an exam do you not study for it? Or do you just rely on Allah for a miracle to give you the correct answers? is life not a test?
You are lashing out like a cornered bully because I have exposed your falsehood.
What falsehood? All you did was have a go at my faith, without proving anything.
If you?re so truthful tell the truth how does GOD inspire you? How do you know truth? You mentioned nothing. So what is the truth.
A truthful person would recognize the truth.
One cannot make a seer out of a blind person.Same can be said to you, your truth is the masses do it, it must be right.
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
Interesting, you know i don?t even need to look up anything from dictionaries or the roots to tell you, you have totally taken that verse out of context. Read the verses above and after.
Bad imam will lead you to hell!
How can you tell if mine is good or bad? Think hard.... did you think yet? That?s right, you can?t. So enough with your talk.
In conclusion, 5 salat theory is apparently truth because Muslims around the world do it and did it (apparently) and other muslims would have punished them if they did otherwise(apparently).
We were talking about hearsay before, hearsay has returned.
You're free to correct the conclusion for appropriate discussion.
peace.
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Oh please! Stop with the self righteous act and unrighteous slander and use your brain for once!
At least you had to admit the verses you are misleading with to 'prove' we learn from IMAMS was actually talking about Isaac and Jacob and not the Imam at the mosque and that has pinched so much you have to start with the satanic crap.
I advocate what Quran advocates you satan following unrighteous biggoted hypocrite.
There you go again POM POM lady. I always knew who the Imams were in the verse 2173. And my writing is consistent with the verse. You did not comprehend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is your oxygen deprived brain that equated Imam to some mad man. Bukhari wins big on this one. Bukhari is proud of you. He thanks you.
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What proof do you have other than muslim practices around the world today, pray 5 times a day? what proof do you have that this is what the prophet instituted? Nothing other than this is what people do today?
I have given you the Quranic proof that clearly said Allah taught salat to Imams and we are to learn salat from the Imam. You refuse to accept Allah?s words, you are disregarding Allah?s revelation, you are not taking heed. This is your problem!!
Now lets analyze your question what proof do you have that this is what the prophet instituted?
Are you saying Abu Bakar mislead us by praying different than Prophet Muhammad OR
Are you saying Uthman mislead us OR
Are you saying Uthman?s follower did it OR
Are you saying his follower did it OR
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???Who mislead us and where is the proof? Since you know so much about history the answer should be as easy as eating a good piece of cake (carrot cake perhaps).
So you believe the ritual salat is 100% accurate? In all aspects?
Five salat timing and salat structure is preserved. Likewise Ramadan and other rituals are preserved as well.
It?s preserved because that?s your belief without any proof other than muslims in ALL generations must have practiced the same salat because they?d go to Hell otherwise and other muslims would have beat them.
No, it is not my belief, it is the Quranic approach and I have no choice but to accept it. The onus is on you to show the discontinuity in the Quran?s approach. Please do provide the evidence of discontinuity.
If you read a book and there is a word you have no idea what it means God forbid you from looking it up! Wrong is Wrong! You cannot think! you can only pray to God for guidance! Guidance for what that word means.
First, we are not talking about a man made book; we are talking about Quran (Allah?s book).
You may seek meaning of a Quranic verse and Allah may or may not grant you the correct understanding. Allah may grant the understanding to a leader whom the believers must follow. This is a Quranic fact2179 - We granted Solomon the correct understanding, though we endowed both of them with wisdom and knowledge. We committed the mountains to serve David in glorifying (God), as well as the birds. This is what we did.
You guys are ignoring this fact when you are extracting faulty meaning via the use of root meaning dictionary!
Is your mind free from error? does shaytan not whisper to you? Are you ma3soom? should I ask you for guidance with your special connection to God? Who validates your logic? The masses? Or wait.. you said majority of people are going to hell..
I am not the one who is trying to mislead other with manmade meaning from a dictionary. I realize my limitation and do not transgress it. On the contrary, you and your masters are engaged in doing just that. Therefore, these question should be directed at them.
I tell you the dictionary is a tool, you say it?s a hadith it?s mockery. This whole discourse is a hadith. The Quran is hadith. The books in the library are hadith, a conversation you have with a muslim or anyone is hadith. You?re point? Do you think hadith = evil? If you do you need to sort out your logic and understanding of hadith. Tell me how do you understand any of the Quran ANY OF THE QURAN? Who taught you it? Do you know Arabic? Who taught them language? Is the language classical? What English interpretations do you use? Are they free from satan? Do you just read mindlessly and aim to get guidance? You take mockery of what God ordained. God didn?t create the universe for us to look at it and do nothing.
Now, now don?t get upset. Be patient, if you allow your mind to accept the truth, it will eventually sink in. I do not accept your faulty logic portrayed here. This is what you want me to believe
Quran = hadith = Truth
Dictionary = hadith = Truth
Thus, Quran = Dictionary = Truth.I reject you logic.
People with sincere heart will easily understand the message in the Quran!
Are you calling me bad thinking? Some interesting covert accusations you have, very interesting that you can actually know my thinking and it is for ?good thinking people? so the assumption is Quran is only for SOME people not ALL mankind. Interesting indeed.
I just identified the categories. You are the one making an issue out of it, giving people the impression that you are a bad thinker. If it does not apply to you then you should not dwell on it.
Allah seals the heart of ill thinking people so that they cannot understand the Quran.Your response shows the lack of comprehension you have. If you have an exam do you not study for it? Or do you just rely on Allah for a miracle to give you the correct answers? is life not a test?
This is very immature questioning. Sounds like you are in a desperate situation.
If you?re so truthful tell the truth how does GOD inspire you? How do you know truth? You mentioned nothing. So what is the truth.
You should use your Allah given innermost thought to discern Truth from Falsehood. You will be held accountable for improper use of the innermost thought.
Interesting, you know i don?t even need to look up anything from dictionaries or the roots to tell you, you have totally taken that verse out of context. Read the verses above and after.
And you will be held accountable for this misleading statement of yours!
In conclusion, 5 salat theory is apparently truth because Muslims around the world do it and did it (apparently) and other muslims would have punished them if they did otherwise(apparently).
Prophet Muhammad showed us the correct way of praying. Five times a day. Only satan will tell us to do otherwise. Prophet Muhammad led us to heaven. And satan will most certainly lead his follower to hell. The choice is yours.
We were talking about hearsay before, hearsay has returned.
Five salat per day = Truth
Two salat per day = Falsehood
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Salam, Peace
Guest translation
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
WajaAAalnahum aimmatan yahdoona biamrina waawhayna ilayhim fiAAla alkhayrati waiqama alssalati waeetaa alzzakati wakanoo lana AAabideena
Yusuf Ali
And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).Moshin Khan
And We made them leaders, guiding (mankind) by Our Command, and We revealed them the doing of good deeds, performing Sal?t (Iq?mat-as-Sal?t), and the giving of Zak?t and of Us (Alone) they were the worshippers.Pickthal
And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone).Shakir
And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;FM
And We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good works and hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification, and they were in service to Us.to be taught how to and to be asked to do are not the same thing.
Peace
ps where did yo get this translation from?
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So who are the imams today that are mentioned in Quran who will teach you salat?
For certain Prophet Muhammad was the Imam that taught his living follower the perfect way to perform the salat. They in turn taught his follower and so on. We learn salat from our parents, uncle, friends, neighbor, etc.
If and when the salat get distorted to certain threshold level, Allah will raise an Imam to correct the distortion.
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They in turn taught his follower and so on. We learn salat from our parents, uncle, friends, neighbor, etc.
Uha. So who is the current imam that teaches people salat correctly?
If and when the salat get distorted to certain threshold level, Allah will raise an Imam to correct the distortion.
But if there's always an imam to teach salat, why would it ever get distorted?
So again, who is the current imam of the ummah?
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Peace Guest,
I?m not going to waste my time with your disparaging remarks
I?ll say this, look up ?hadith? in a dictionary and look up ?hadith? in Quran. Once you do that look up ?truth?. When you?re familiar with the terms, re-read your statement
?Quran = hadith = Truth
Dictionary = hadith = Truth
Thus, Quran = Dictionary = Truth.
I reject you logic.?nowhere did i say nor allude to such a conclusion so really you reject your own logic.
Let me tell you again not all hadith = evil.
Dictionaries are not the only source to help aid in knowledge, it is a tool. Stop assuming. it?s a really bad habit, honestly.
There?s a whole chapter about prayer and 2 times praying in the book ?the development of Islamic rituals? edited by Gerald Hawting, you can also find info about the 5 time prayers in it. Another scholar Mittwoch recognises Muslims prayed 2 times a day. Even traditionalist ibn kathir recognised it. In more later times you can find Ibn Arabi?s teachings, being famous for the morning and evening prayers he taught.
Besides academic, historical and traditional sunni evidence we have the Quran. Which of course you don?t accept as evidence.
If evidence is out there for 2 times a day and you?re in denial without even reading into it, what can I do? If you put a barrier in front of your eyes a seal in front of your heart not to mention your brain, nothing can help guide you except by God?s will. If you can only accept today?s practices as absolute truth then I can only say you are delusional.
Lastly about the verse you quote in relation to imams, where did i say i reject the verse? Rather i reject your understanding of it.
Because of course you understand the verse and are refuting my position i ask you this
2173
Waja3alnahum
Translated as ?and we made them? who is the ?them? referring to?
This answer is significant for our understanding of the verse.
ah and also you seem to have included another verse 2179
You may seek meaning of a Quranic verse and Allah may or may not grant you the correct understanding. Allah may grant the understanding to a leader whom the believers must follow. This is a Quranic fact
2179 - We granted Solomon the correct understanding, though we endowed both of them with wisdom and knowledge. We committed the mountains to serve David in glorifying (God), as well as the birds. This is what we did.
You guys are ignoring this fact when you are extracting faulty meaning via the use of root meaning dictionary!
what fact are we denying exactly here?
take your time and digest
Salam
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For certain Prophet Muhammad was the Imam that taught his living follower the perfect way to perform the salat. They in turn taught his follower and so on. We learn salat from our parents, uncle, friends, neighbor, etc.
If and when the salat get distorted to certain threshold level, Allah will raise an Imam to correct the distortion.
The verse you gave referred to Isaac and Jacob who where a long time before Muhammed, even a long time before Jesus. I think we all agree that all of these were 'imams' in the sense of the verse you posted as proof nothing has changed.
Things did change regarding the practice from Isaac and Jacob through Moses to Jesus. The Christians now will tell you Jesus is the son of God, the living God, God in the flesh, is that what Jesus actually taught? No, it changed. Muhammed came and was told to establish regular prayer, he did, it was again changed.
Your post above agrees that it can get distorted, so one must assume you are expecting another messenger some time soon to correct it? Maybe your dad, a neighbour, you?
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Uha. So who is the current imam that teaches people salat correctly?
But if there's always an imam to teach salat, why would it ever get distorted?
So again, who is the current imam of the ummah?
Prophet Muhammad was an Imam. He taught his follower the correct way of performing salat which he learned from Allah. Thus, Prophet Muhammad became an Imam by direct appointment of Allah.
Abu Bakar learned salat from Prophet Muhammad. And people learned salat from him.
This does not mean the rank and responsibilities of Prophet Muhammad and that of Abu Bakar is the same. One has the ability to teach the salat and the other can only learn the salat and pass it on.
If Allah raises an Imam to correct a ritual, he will let you know. At that point you can accept him or reject him. That will be your choice.
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I?ll say this, look up ?hadith? in a dictionary and look up ?hadith? in Quran. Once you do that look up ?truth?. When you?re familiar with the terms, re-read your statement
nowhere did i say nor allude to such a conclusion so really you reject your own logic.
Let me tell you again not all hadith = evil.
Dictionaries are not the only source to help aid in knowledge, it is a tool. Stop assuming. it?s a really bad habit, honestly.
I refuse to submit to your idol ?dictionary?. So please do not ever ask me to look up the dictionary when discussing the Quran. You are clinging to dictionary like Sunni?s hang on to Bukhari?s book.
I already told you that Quran contains nothing but the truth. And you agreed to it. Then why did you bring up this nonsense discussion. I have given you the possible motive for the discussion and I stand by it.
There?s a whole chapter about prayer and 2 times praying in the book ?the development of Islamic rituals? edited by Gerald Hawting, you can also find info about the 5 time prayers in it. Another scholar Mittwoch recognises Muslims prayed 2 times a day. Even traditionalist ibn kathir recognised it. In more later times you can find Ibn Arabi?s teachings, being famous for the morning and evening prayers he taught.
I already told you about my book of truth i.e. Quran. Then why are you trying to mislead me to your favorite books FALSEHOOD!!!!
For your information, satan cannot mislead obedient servant of Allah.
Lastly about the verse you quote in relation to imams, where did i say i reject the verse? Rather i reject your understanding of it.
Because of course you understand the verse and are refuting my position i ask you this
2173
Waja3alnahum
Translated as ?and we made them? who is the ?them? referring to?
This answer is significant for our understanding of the verse.
Again, you are showing your true color i.e. the use of dictionary. Your approach is to bring the discussion to a word so that you can consult the dearest dictionary of yours.
ah and also you seem to have included another verse 2179
what fact are we denying exactly here?
take your time and digest
I guess you don?t have the mental capability to do ?what if? analysis. Learn it. Then you will not be asking redundant silly question.
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The verse you gave referred to Isaac and Jacob who where a long time before Muhammed, even a long time before Jesus. I think we all agree that all of these were 'imams' in the sense of the verse you posted as proof nothing has changed.
Things did change regarding the practice from Isaac and Jacob through Moses to Jesus. The Christians now will tell you Jesus is the son of God, the living God, God in the flesh, is that what Jesus actually taught? No, it changed. Muhammed came and was told to establish regular prayer, he did, it was again changed.
Your post above agrees that it can get distorted, so one must assume you are expecting another messenger some time soon to correct it? Maybe your dad, a neighbour, you?
The point I was trying to make is this
Allah appoints the First Imam to teach righteous people the rituals e.g. salat
The Imam dies
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are distorted or totally lost
Time goes by?..
?????????.Allah appoints the Second Imam to reestablish the original/modified rituals e.g. salat
The 2nd Imam dies
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are distorted or totally lost
Time goes by?..
?????????.The process continues with 3rd, 4th,???.Imams
Allah appoints Prophet Muhammad as Imam to reestablish the original/modified rituals e.g. salat
Prophet Muhammad dies
Allah preserves the final book
The rituals are preserved as a consequence of preserving the final book
The follower continue the rituals
Time goes by ??
?????????..
Rituals are intact
Time goes by?..
?????????.
Rituals are intact