Question on 2:29
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Hey all,
dont know if this has been brought up before, i just had a question on surah 229 where it sais God created the earth and THAN turned to the heavens to fashion them.Ive checked the occurence of the word "thumma" and out of hundreds of places only once does it mean "moreover", everywhere else it is used as "than".
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3Avum%7E+pos%3AconjSo i dont know if the people interpreting the word as "moreover" were really being fully honest while doing so. I dont know arabic just wanted to check it out myself to the best of my abilities. Anyone able to shed some light on this for me?
Thank you.
/Halil
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Hey all,
dont know if this has been brought up before, i just had a question on surah 229 where it sais God created the earth and THAN turned to the heavens to fashion them.Ive checked the occurence of the word "thumma" and out of hundreds of places only once does it mean "moreover", everywhere else it is used as "than".
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?q=lem%3Avum%7E+pos%3AconjSo i dont know if the people interpreting the word as "moreover" were really being fully honest while doing so. I dont know arabic just wanted to check it out myself to the best of my abilities. Anyone able to shed some light on this for me?
Thank you.
/Halil
Peace halil
I think you mean THEN and not THAN peace
'then' would mean 'after' he had created everything on the earth, 'moreover' would mean 'as well as' creating everything on earth
I would be more inclined towards 'moreover' to mean 'as well as' rather than think He made earth and everything on it before He made the heavens as 'heavens' and everything in the sky / universe also includes the earth as we are part of the universe.
Either way it doesnt take from the message that He made everything, doesn't matter in what order does it?
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Oh sooo sorry, yes, ofcourse, i mean "then" as in "after that" or something. English is not my main language =P.
Im sorry dont know if im misunderstanding you right now, but i was implying as to that the rare decision to translate the arabic word "thumma" as "moreover" instead of the greatly more frequently occuring translation "then" seems a bit.... odd. If the proper translation really is "moreover" then theres no problem really, everything makes sense with what i have learned. But if it is "then" i would have difficulty understanding the verse.
Thing is though when i look the word up and its usage in the quran it pretty much allways seems to have the meaning "then" and only seems to take on the meaning of "moreover" in 229, as so decided in http//corpus.quran.com. -
Oh sooo sorry, yes, ofcourse, i mean "then" as in "after that" or something. English is not my main language =P.
Im sorry dont know if im misunderstanding you right now, but i was implying as to that the rare decision to translate the arabic word "thumma" as "moreover" instead of the greatly more frequently occuring translation "then" seems a bit.... odd. If the proper translation really is "moreover" then theres no problem really, everything makes sense with what i have learned. But if it is "then" i would have difficulty understanding the verse.
Thing is though when i look the word up and its usage in the quran it pretty much allways seems to have the meaning "then" and only seems to take on the meaning of "moreover" in 229, as so decided in http//corpus.quran.com.Now i am misunderstanding you I think.
First you said "So i dont know if the people interpreting the word as "moreover" were really being fully honest while doing so."
and now you say that using 'moreover' makes more sense.
I don't know why it was translated this way in this verse as i didn't do it, but they could have also used 'besides' or 'as well as' . This is the difficulty in trying ot translate each Arabic word into English. What this word is doing is joining the first bit (creating earth) with the last bit (creating the heavens), its just a joining word but using 'then' would imply that creating of earth and everything on it was first before creating the rest.
Hope that helps peace
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Peace to you Ayisha,
i think im having major issues explaining myself correctly D, maybe i need an english course or to.First you said "So i dont know if the people interpreting the word as "moreover" were really being fully honest while doing so."
and now you say that using 'moreover' makes more sense.
Yes to me using "moreover" does make more sense, however im concerned whether that is a correct translation or not and so im worried about if the translators were fully honest there. Maybe i should mention the following to be able to clarify myself, i dont want a "comfortable" translation which would relieve me of difficulties, id rather have the truth.
Im sorry for the confusion im not very used to communicating through the internet, let alone in english. peace
Thank you for your time and input.God Bless.
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Peace to you Ayisha,
i think im having major issues explaining myself correctly D, maybe i need an english course or to.Yes to me using "moreover" does make more sense, however im concerned whether that is a correct translation or not and so im worried about if the translators were fully honest there. Maybe i should mention the following to be able to clarify myself, i dont want a "comfortable" translation which would relieve me of difficulties, id rather have the truth.
Im sorry for the confusion im not very used to communicating through the internet, let alone in english. peace
Thank you for your time and input.God Bless.
Peace halil
You are making yourself clear enough don't worry, and i understand you wanting the truth too but it is difficult to translate any language into another as sometimes there is not a word to be specific in one language as it is in another. Take the word BOW in English, you would probably think it means 'to bow to someone like Allah as in head down' but although it is the same spelling it can also mean a tied ribbon. it depends on its pronunciation as to bow is pronounced b-ow and a bow is pronounced b-oh.
Possibly confused you even more now, sorry laugh
What i'm getting at it that either word used doesn't take away or distort the 'meaning' and the meaning is that Allah created everything, heavens and earth and all the pretty little stars and what order He did it in is not relevant to the message. to use 'then' would imply that one part was done before the other but to use 'moreover' implies He did it 'as well' or 'also' . if you found Allah made earth first before the heavens would it be more or less truth than finding He made the heavens as well as the earth?
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if you found Allah made earth first before the heavens would it be more or less truth than finding He made the heavens as well as the earth?
Hey Ayisha,
yes i would find it harder to understand as it being the truth if it really did say that God made the earth before the heavens because that would not fit in well with what i have learned scientifically. But i dont know if it really does say that. -
Hey Ayisha,
yes i would find it harder to understand as it being the truth if it really did say that God made the earth before the heavens because that would not fit in well with what i have learned scientifically. But i dont know if it really does say that.Well if you believe Quran to be from the creator then the 'meaning' implied by the word 'moreover' is more in line with what you know scientifically and as we learn from scientific discoveries more of Quran will become clear. Allah has repeatedly said He made the heavens and the earth and all the universe, the order is irrelevant to us BUT science came along and has proved certain things. Im not saying we need science to beleive Quran, but as science develops more will be seen in Quran.
Example we didnt know 1400 years ago that we all had different finger prints, but it is in Quran 75.4
we didnt know 1400 years ago that in the depths of the ocean you cannot see your hand in front of you, but its in Quran 24.40
we didnt know 1400 years ago how the human embryo develops but its in Quran 23.12-14. The word alaqah has many meanings - leech, suspended thing, blood clot and the embryo in this state looks like a leech, is suspended from the wall of the womb and is a blood clot. The next stage is mudghah which means 'chewed like substance' and at that point the embryo looks like a piece of chewed gum.Much more that I wont go into but when looking at Quran you have to think and use logic and reasoning so given what we know of the earth and universe development then the word 'moreover' here is more correct than the word 'then'. As 1 word in Arabic can mean a few things, as 1 word can in any language, the most 'logical' is used that gives the correct 'implication', using 'then' implies heavens came after, which we know it didnt.
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Found another instance of this for you Halil
41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke He said to it and to the earth "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
Thumma istawa ila alssama-iwahiya dukhanun faqala laha walil-ardii/tiya tawAAan aw karhan qalata ataynata-iAAeena
Most others use 'then' here too but Asad has used 'and' and has put an explanation
"And He applied His design to the skies, which were smoke; and He said to them and to the earth, "Come , both of you, willingly or unwillingly!" - to which both responded, "We do come in obedience." is this He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called
allegory' (tamthil). Thus, the purport is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed , and nothing else." (It is obvious that Zamakhshari's reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, "When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it,Be' - and it is." Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds "If I am asked about the meaning of `willingly or unwillingly', I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect."] -
Thank you Ayisha those are useful inputs.
Moreover D, my faith in God is not dependant on the quran, and my faith in the quran is not dependant on its clarity regarding scientific matters but rather its content as a whole. I allways run into verses that i find to be troublesome, but they have never been able to sway me away from the book cause i just cant disregard like 95% of the rest of its content that just pierce through ones soul.peace
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Thank you Ayisha those are useful inputs.
Moreover , my faith in God is not dependant on the quran, and my faith in the quran is not dependant on its clarity regarding scientific matters but rather its content as a whole. I allways run into verses that i find to be troublesome, but they have never been able to sway me away from the book cause i just cant disregard like 95% of the rest of its content that just pierce through ones soul.peace
bravo