The Night of Decree is the 27th day of the 9th moon: Incontrovertible proof

WayFinder

Seems the keyword is 'shahida' and all translator has translated it in the way they understand it with their additional thought in brackets. An analysis of this word from the quranic perspective should reveal crucial information.

6619

Salaam Ayman,

Peace Pierre,

You are inventing your own language. What you are saying is baseless logically and linguistically. There is no dictionary that says that the word "shahr" means "new moon". Please show the word in the great reading that you are translating as "new moon".

Your translation is false and you are confusing the lunar cycle and the Hijri Calendar. Those are two different things. It is an indisputable reality that when your so-called Ramadan occurs is based on when Sha'ban occured and so on. It is an indisputable fact that if Sha'aban and Ramadan are transposed or Safar started a month earlier then you would be fasting what you now call Sha'aban. Whether they were made up by Umar or anyone else, the lunar and solar cycles have nothing to do with those 100% arbitrary and manmade decisions.

There is absolutely nothing in the sun, planet earth and moon that say that your so called Ramadan (and thus the 27th of it) has to occur on a particular day. Your only basis for this is the Hijri calendar and not the sun, planet earth and the moon. Therefore if you are on a cruise ship and the ship sinks and you become unconcious and wake up on a deserted island and lose track of the Hijri calendar, you will never in a thousand years know your so-called Ramadan based on the lunar and solar cycles. You can have everything and all technlogy at your disposal and still you will not know when is your Ramadan and your falsehood will be lost forever. The only thing that will provide you that info is if a satellite phone washed on shore and you contact a Sunni friend to ask him about what day in the Hijri calendar it is today. This example demonstrates the indisputable reality that the Hijri calendar is 100% arbitrary and manmade and is not based on the lunar or solar cycles. Why 19ers, who claim to be all mathematical and scientific, are the least able to grasp simple indisputable physical scientific realities?

You are a liar and a fraud who deliberately plays numerology games like 19ers. The plural form occurs 27 times.

Also, it is an indisputable fact that your so-called Ramadan is a 100% arbitrary and manmade timing that has nothing to do with the god's system and reality. What it really depends on are arbitrary manmade decisions about the order of the months and when month 1, year 1 was invented.

Peace,

Ayman

First of all, and wether you like it or not, there are 12 months in God's system
936 The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.

Wether you like it or not there are twelve words "month" in Quran. Indisputable fact. At least admit that.

You are no only a liar, but an ignorant The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times
AYYAM/YAWMAYN / (Days) occurs 30 times.
280 2184 2184 2185 2196 2203 2203 324 341 3140 589 754 103 10102 117 1165 145 2228 2559 324 3418 419 4110 4112 4116 4514 5038 574 697 6924.
And yes Ayman, you are stuck It is an indisputable FACT yes. Check it instead of proclaiming lies !!! Will you have the courage to admit that you were dead wrong or will you try to talk about something else so people forget ? But I know Ayman 30 days, just another coincidence.

Why 30 days? because it symbolizes the maximum number of days in a lunar month, and a lot more, but not now you will learn the rest soon enough, God willing.

And, by the way, "day" occurs 365 times, and that also Ayman, is an undisputable fact. Only the ignorants will choose to be blind. Quran acknowledges in reality both lunar and solar calendar. Again you will have to confront the miracle of the Quran about that, but later, God willing.
YAWM (Day, 10,6,40) occurs 365 times!
14 28 248 262 285 2113 2123 2126 2174 2177 2212 2228 2232 2249 2254 2259 2259 2264 2281 39 325 330 355 377 3106 3114 3155 3161 3166 3180 3185 3194 438 439 459 487 4109 4136 4141 4159 4162 53 53 55 514 536 564 569 5109 5119 612 615 622 673 673 693 6128 6141 6158 714 732 751 753 759 7163 7163 7167 7172 841 841 848 93 918 919 925 929 935 936 944 945 977 999 9108 1015 1028 1045 1060 1092 1093 113 118 1126 1143 1160 1177 1184 1198 1199 11103 11103 11105 1254 1292 1418 1431 1441 1442 1444 1448 1535 1536 1538 1625 1627 1627 1663 1680 1680 1684 1689 1692 16111 16124 1713 1714 1752 1758 1762 1771 1797 1819 1819 1847 1852 18105 1915 1915 1915 1926 1933 1933 1933 1937 1938 1938 1939 1985 1995 2059 2064 20100 20101 20102 20104 20124 20126 2147 21104 222 229 2217 2247 2255 2269 2316 2365 23100 23111 23113 23113 242 2424 2437 2464 2514 2517 2522 2525 2526 2527 2569 2638 2682 2687 2688 26135 26155 26156 26189 26189 2783 2787 2841 2842 2861 2862 2865 2871 2872 2874 2913 2925 2936 2955 3012 3014 3043 3055 3056 3056 3133 325 3225 3229 3321 3344 3366 3430 3440 3442 3514 3654 3655 3659 3664 3665 3720 3721 3726 37144 3816 3826 3853 3878 3879 3881 3913 3915 3924 3931 3947 3960 3967 4015 4016 4016 4017 4017 4018 4027 4029 4030 4032 4033 4046 4049 4051 4052 4119 4140 4147 427 4245 4247 4339 4365 4368 4410 4416 4440 4441 4517 4526 4527 4528 4534 4535 465 4620 4620 4621 4634 4635 5020 5022 5030 5034 5041 5042 5042 5044 5112 5113 529 5213 5246 546 548 5419 5448 5529 5650 5656 5712 5712 5713 5715 586 587 5818 5822 603 606 629 649 649 649 652 667 668 6824 6839 6842 6935 704 708 7026 7043 7044 7314 7317 749 7446 751 756 767 7610 7611 7627 7712 7713 7714 7735 7738 7817 7818 7838 7839 7840 796 7935 7946 8034 8215 8217 8218 8219 835 836 8311 8334 852 869 9014 1014

No Ayman, I am not reinventing the Arabic language like you are to mislead people and yourself
2185 Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witnessed this month (the new moon appeared, perfect tense, the event belongs now to the past) shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar of 12 months, each month lasting 30 days maximum (30 days, ring a bell ?) and the new month starts when we witness the new moon in the sky Those of you who witnessed this month are the ones who saw the new moon, it is only illogical for people like you who choose to be blind; it has been working the same way for millions of years. You are just playing on words to try to save face, but you are just a liar.

The Hijri calendar is indexed on the same lunar calendar of 12 months that Muhammad and the prophets experienced. The Hijri calendar is simply a way to count the number of years in the lunar system of 12 months decreed by God. What kind of game are you playing ? Your conspiracy theories that someone changed everything are pure lies; Human beings have been very good at preserving the lunar calendar. Only people like you would like to change and corrupt everything.

Peace.

Pierre

afridi220

Salaam Ayman,

First of all, and wether you like it or not, there are 12 months in God's system
936 The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.

Wether you like it or not there are twelve words "month" in Quran. Indisputable fact. At least admit that.

You are no only a liar, but an ignorant The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times
AYYAM/YAWMAYN / (Days) occurs 30 times.
280 2184 2184 2185 2196 2203 2203 324 341 3140 589 754 103 10102 117 1165 145 2228 2559 324 3418 419 4110 4112 4116 4514 5038 574 697 6924.
And yes Ayman, you are stuck It is an indisputable FACT yes. Check it instead of proclaiming lies !!! Will you have the courage to admit that you were dead wrong or will you try to talk about something else so people forget ? But I know Ayman 30 days, just another coincidence.

Why 30 days? because it symbolizes the maximum number of days in a lunar month, and a lot more, but not now you will learn the rest soon enough, God willing.

And, by the way, "day" occurs 365 times, and that also Ayman, is an undisputable fact. Only the ignorants will choose to be blind. Quran acknowledges in reality both lunar and solar calendar. Again you will have to confront the miracle of the Quran about that, but later, God willing.
YAWM (Day, 10,6,40) occurs 365 times!
14 28 248 262 285 2113 2123 2126 2174 2177 2212 2228 2232 2249 2254 2259 2259 2264 2281 39 325 330 355 377 3106 3114 3155 3161 3166 3180 3185 3194 438 439 459 487 4109 4136 4141 4159 4162 53 53 55 514 536 564 569 5109 5119 612 615 622 673 673 693 6128 6141 6158 714 732 751 753 759 7163 7163 7167 7172 841 841 848 93 918 919 925 929 935 936 944 945 977 999 9108 1015 1028 1045 1060 1092 1093 113 118 1126 1143 1160 1177 1184 1198 1199 11103 11103 11105 1254 1292 1418 1431 1441 1442 1444 1448 1535 1536 1538 1625 1627 1627 1663 1680 1680 1684 1689 1692 16111 16124 1713 1714 1752 1758 1762 1771 1797 1819 1819 1847 1852 18105 1915 1915 1915 1926 1933 1933 1933 1937 1938 1938 1939 1985 1995 2059 2064 20100 20101 20102 20104 20124 20126 2147 21104 222 229 2217 2247 2255 2269 2316 2365 23100 23111 23113 23113 242 2424 2437 2464 2514 2517 2522 2525 2526 2527 2569 2638 2682 2687 2688 26135 26155 26156 26189 26189 2783 2787 2841 2842 2861 2862 2865 2871 2872 2874 2913 2925 2936 2955 3012 3014 3043 3055 3056 3056 3133 325 3225 3229 3321 3344 3366 3430 3440 3442 3514 3654 3655 3659 3664 3665 3720 3721 3726 37144 3816 3826 3853 3878 3879 3881 3913 3915 3924 3931 3947 3960 3967 4015 4016 4016 4017 4017 4018 4027 4029 4030 4032 4033 4046 4049 4051 4052 4119 4140 4147 427 4245 4247 4339 4365 4368 4410 4416 4440 4441 4517 4526 4527 4528 4534 4535 465 4620 4620 4621 4634 4635 5020 5022 5030 5034 5041 5042 5042 5044 5112 5113 529 5213 5246 546 548 5419 5448 5529 5650 5656 5712 5712 5713 5715 586 587 5818 5822 603 606 629 649 649 649 652 667 668 6824 6839 6842 6935 704 708 7026 7043 7044 7314 7317 749 7446 751 756 767 7610 7611 7627 7712 7713 7714 7735 7738 7817 7818 7838 7839 7840 796 7935 7946 8034 8215 8217 8218 8219 835 836 8311 8334 852 869 9014 1014

No Ayman, I am not reinventing the Arabic language like you are to mislead people and yourself
2185 Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witnessed this month (the new moon appeared, perfect tense, the event belongs now to the past) shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar of 12 months, each month lasting 30 days maximum (30 days, ring a bell ?) and the new month starts when we witness the new moon in the sky Those of you who witnessed this month are the ones who saw the new moon, it is only illogical for people like you who choose to be blind; it has been working the same way for millions of years. You are just playing on words to try to save face, but you are just a liar.

The Hijri calendar is indexed on the same lunar calendar of 12 months that Muhammad and the prophets experienced. The Hijri calendar is simply a way to count the number of years in the lunar system of 12 months decreed by God. What kind of game are you playing ? Your conspiracy theories that someone changed everything are pure lies; Human beings have been very good at preserving the lunar calendar. Only people like you would like to change and corrupt everything.

Peace.

Pierre

Sorry bro for intruption then why the so called Islamic callender is of 29 and 30 days? why all the months not lasting 30 days hmm

Mazhar

You are no only a liar, but an ignorant The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times
AYYAM/YAWMAYN / (Days) occurs 30 times.
280 2184 2184 2185 2196 2203 2203 324 341 3140 589 754 103 10102 117 1165 145 2228 2559 324 3418 419 4110 4112 4116 4514 5038 574 697 6924.

Pl permit me for a little clarification. In English may be considered/translated as plural but in Arabic it is not plural. It is "Dual". "two days".

ayman

I am happy Aymen, instead of keeping silent like Edip after exposure of stupidity, you keep further exposing and confirming yourself to be totally a derailed person, and a person absolutely non conversant what to say of delicacies and nicities even with basics of Arabic.

Listen Mazhar, since I am stupid and you are so smart then show us the other occurrences of "shahd" where it means "present" as the transaltions that you gave claim but excludes those living but could be in such state as coma as you claim. For example, when the god says that "he shahd that there is no god except him" does this mean that "he is present and not in a coma"?? When you say that someone "shahd fi alma7kama" does it mean the he was present and not in a coma in court?? Just bring ONE example from the great reading or even from any source where "shahd" means "present and not in a coma" according to your nonsense. Show us how smart you really are.

The month gets a name with the appearance of first moon. A particular month becomes known and stands witnessed by a person the moment the first moon appears, and not after lapse of 29/30 days that he comes to know about that month. Immediately on sight of first moon, one finds/witnesses the month. And except for stupids everyone knows that the Lunar month begins immediately after the sunset of previous month and appearance of first moon, and fast begins after passing of that night from dawn.

Since you are not stupid and are abviously very smart tell us what would you name that new moon when you wake up from a coma on a deserted island?

Peace on the smart ones,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Pierre,

First of all, and wether you like it or not, there are 12 months in God's system

I like it ) . Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?

You are no only a liar, but an ignorant The Holy Quran is a mathematically structured book and the plural for "days" occurs 30 times
AYYAM/YAWMAYN / (Days) occurs 30 times.
280 2184 2184 2185 2196 2203 2203 324 341 3140 589 754 103 10102 117 1165 145 2228 2559 324 3418 419 4110 4112 4116 4514 5038 574 697 6924.
And yes Ayman, you are stuck It is an indisputable FACT yes. Check it instead of proclaiming lies !!! Will you have the courage to admit that you were dead wrong or will you try to talk about something else so people forget ? But I know Ayman 30 days, just another coincidence.

Not knowing the difference between plural and dual and arbitrarily adjusting the count is not a coincidence but it is typical numerology tricks. )

So according to you the month is 30 days and there are 12 months so we should have 30x12 = 360 days.

Unfortunately here is what you say next

Why 30 days? because it symbolizes the maximum number of days in a lunar month, and a lot more, but not now you will learn the rest soon enough, God willing.
And, by the way, "day" occurs 365 times, and that also Ayman, is an undisputable fact. Only the ignorants will choose to be blind. Quran acknowledges in reality both lunar and solar calendar.

Can you multiply? 30x12 = 360, not 365 and certainly not 354. So according to your logic the god neither acknowledges the solar or the lunar calendars.

Again you will have to confront the miracle of the Quran about that, but later, God willing.
YAWM (Day, 10,6,40) occurs 365 times!

There are actually 475 occurrences of the various forms of day. Please list all the forms you are arbitrarily excluding and those you are arbitrarily including to reach 365.

No Ayman, I am not reinventing the Arabic language like you are to mislead people and yourself
The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar of 12 months, each month lasting 30 days maximum (30 days, ring a bell ?)

12x30 =360, ring a bell?

and the new month starts when we witness the new moon in the sky
Those of you who witnessed this month are the ones who saw the new moon, it is only illogical for people like you who choose to be blind; it has been working the same way for millions of years. You are just playing on words to try to save face, but you are just a liar.

If it has been working like this for millions of years long before humans and I am blind and you are so insightful and your Ramadan is not manmade and arbitrary then you should be able to easily tell us how to find your Ramadan when you are stranded with your buddy Mazhar on a deserted island with no means to contact Sunnis. )

The Hijri calendar is indexed on the same lunar calendar of 12 months that Muhammad and the prophets experienced. The Hijri calendar is simply a way to count the number of years in the lunar system of 12 months decreed by God. What kind of game are you playing ?

So you are saying that the god created the heavens and the earth on Friday, Muharam 1, year 1!

If you are so smart and I am playing games then tell us how you would find your Ramadan on your deserted island by simply counting the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god.

Also, as an FIY, none of the previous people (prophets or otherwise) heard of your Hijri calendar or its months. They used different calendars with different months and didn't have a month called Ramadan.

Your conspiracy theories that someone changed everything are pure lies; Human beings have been very good at preserving the lunar calendar. Only people like you would like to change and corrupt everything.

Yes. It is a conspiracy that if you wake up on a deserted island and have all the technology in the world to count the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god then you will never find your false Ramadan again. You can blame me since I conspired with others to alter reality and the cycles of the moon and the sun decreed by the god and prevent you from ever finding your Ramadan without calling a Sunni buddy. )

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother WayFinder,

Seems the keyword is 'shahida' and all translator has translated it in the way they understand it with their additional thought in brackets. An analysis of this word from the quranic perspective should reveal crucial information.

One thing is for sure. In no other occurrence in the great reading or even in regular Arabic language the word "shahida" can be taken to mean "present at home" or "present/living and not in a coma" as per our friend Mazhar.

Modern translators and Mazhar had to change the meaning to get around the logical impossibility of first witnessing 30/29 days and then going back in time and fasting them.

On the other hand, traditionalists have long acknowledged that "shahr" cannot be a time period but is an event that marks the beginning of the period. This is why traditionalists insist on witnessing the new waxing crescent event and not using calculations. However, the "waxing crescent" is not a valid meaning for "shahr". In fact, the waxing crescent is never mentioned in the great reading. Everyone who knows Arabic knows that the words "hilal/ahila" mean both waxing and waning crescents and there are 24 of these (not 12) in a 12 month lunar cycle. This is why Pierre is clueless about the linguistic issues and can't address them.

Peace,

Ayman

6619

Salaam Afridi,

Sorry bro for intruption then why the so called Islamic callender is of 29 and 30 days? why all the months not lasting 30 days hmm

It is like in sura 97. The sura has 30 words symbolizing the maximum number of days in a lunar months. The 27th word in sura 97 is the pronoun "hiya" which refers to the "night of Decree". Some months have 29 days, some have 30 days, depending on when the new moon occurs. Please read my answer to Ayman I will say more about that.

Mazhar

"shahd" means "present and not in a coma" according to your nonsense.

For being a "witness" or "bearing witness" one has either to be present on the occasion/point in time and/or he is to be the one who has the knowledge of that. A person in coma is present when any month begins but does not have the knowledge so he is not witnessing anything despite being existing at that point in time. A lunatic does see appearance of a moon but he is not considered to have witnessed it.

Mazhar

Quote from Mazhar on Yesterday at 051836 PM
The month gets a name with the appearance of first moon. A particular month becomes known and stands witnessed by a person the moment the first moon appears, and not after lapse of 29/30 days that he comes to know about that month. Immediately on sight of first moon, one finds/witnesses the month. And except for stupids everyone knows that the Lunar month begins immediately after the sunset of previous month and appearance of first moon, and fast begins after passing of that night from dawn.

Since you are not stupid and are abviously very smart tell us what would you name that new moon when you wake up from a coma on a deserted island? Aymen

No one needs to prove a stupid a stupid. Stupids keep giving evidence to this effect at their own.

6619

Salaam Ayman,

Peace Pierre,

I like it . Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?

Not knowing the difference between plural and dual and arbitrarily adjusting the count is not a coincidence but it is typical numerology tricks.

So according to you the month is 30 days and there are 12 months so we should have 30x12 = 360 days.

Unfortunately here is what you say next

Can you multiply? 30x12 = 360, not 365 and certainly not 354. So according to your logic the god neither acknowledges the solar or the lunar calendars.

There are actually 475 occurrences of the various forms of day. Please list all the forms you are arbitrarily excluding and those you are arbitrarily including to reach 365.

12x30 =360, ring a bell?

If it has been working like this for millions of years long before humans and I am blind and you are so insightful and your Ramadan is not manmade and arbitrary then you should be able to easily tell us how to find your Ramadan when you are stranded with your buddy Mazhar on a deserted island with no means to contact Sunnis.

So you are saying that the god created the heavens and the earth on Friday, Muharam 1, year 1!

If you are so smart and I am playing games then tell us how you would find your Ramadan on your deserted island by simply counting the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god.

Also, as an FIY, none of the previous people (prophets or otherwise) heard of your Hijri calendar or its months. They used different calendars with different months and didn't have a month called Ramadan.

Yes. It is a conspiracy that if you wake up on a deserted island and have all the technology in the world to count the number of years in a lunar system of 12 months decreed by the god then you will never find your false Ramadan again. You can blame me since I conspired with others to alter reality and the cycles of the moon and the sun decreed by the god and prevent you from ever finding your Ramadan without calling a Sunni buddy.

Peace,

Ayman

Ayman you are not a sincere person There are two forms of plural in Arabic Dual and "more than three".
If you deny this it is not even worth talking with you.
Singular = 1
Plural = 2 or more.
1 day.
2 days
3 days
4 days

Ayman, do you see the little "s" starting from "2 days", it means it is a plural. This is why dual and "more than three" type of plural are found 30 times in Quran, Got that ?

Either you are really stupid if you do not admit this, or really your ego is sooo big that you will deny simply for the sake of denying and try to save face (unfortunately I am afraid that it is your ego that makes you deny simple things like that ).

Anyways Ayman, it is an indisputable fact that there are 30 "days" in Quran, and you got burned. 30 "days" is the maximum number of "days" in the lunar calendar of 12 months decreed by God. It means more but I will keep it simple here.

As for the forms of "day" you have been told in a number of previous debates that there is a peculiar way of counting words in the Quran.
The reason why you deny it is that you refuse to see God's miracle of the Quran like 365 x "day".
The peculiar form of counting singular forms is.... singular generic forms without pronouns attached or else, simply the singular form.
When you open your mind to this then the miracle of 19 and many others like 365 "day" become a reality; they alll click together at the same time which proves their veracity. In other words it is miracle reserved for people who are sincere, on the other hand, insincere people with "closed minds" are forbidden from seeing the miracles. A veil separates them from the believers.

How do I know Ramadan is the 9th month out of 12?

God tells us there are 12 months (936).
God tells us that Ramadan is the month Quran was revealed (2185)
Sura 97 tells us that Quran was revealed during the "Night of Decree", therefore the Night of Decree is part of the month of ramadan.
There are 30 words in sura 97, an allegory for the maximum number of days in Ramadan, the 27th word is the pronoun "Heya" refering to "Night of Decree", which is one of the Quranic signs that it is the 27th day of Ramadan.
The expression "The Night of Decree" has 9 letters (symbolizing Ramadan) and occurs three times 9 x 3 = 27. It is an allegory that "The night of Decree" is the 27th day of the 9th month.
If we select the verse where the 27th pure generic form "Night" occurs (verse 177, as well as the verse where the 9th word "Moon" occurs (2133), there are from verse 1778 to 2133 (from verse to verse, both included) exactly 410 verses. 410 is the gematrical value of the 27th "night" of the 9th "Moon" "The night of Decree" ( &#1585. jedi
Between verse 1778 (27th night) and 2133 (the 9th "Moon&quot, the word "day" (singular generic form) occurs 27 times. Self explanatory. (many more signs in the article mentionned in the opening topic)

Derived from these amazing signs from God, I know not only that "the night of decree" (G.V 410, the night Quran was revealed) is the 27th night of the 9th "Moon", I also know that the 9th "Moon" is Ramadan (2185).
Simple to understand, impossible to imitate.

These profound signs are very easy to understand, an 8 year old would understand easily; still, because they are very easy but allegorical signs, they are designed by God to be rejected by the wicked. They will always claim that it is a coincidence, that we should calculate gematrical value a different way, etc... One can always make up stuff to run away from the truth.

I will finish my post by one of the great miracles of the Quran that proves that the Hijri lunar calendar is approved by God almighty.
It is the "splitting of the moon" (541).

541 The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split.

This amazing event in the history of mankind occured when the american spacecraft left the "Moon" (we are talking a lot about the moon today, I know) with lunar rocks. Again it is both an allegory and a reality The "Moon" experienced a "Separation".
Because of various time zones around the world, the human race witnessed this event at different times, but they all had one thing in common
It was 54 minutes and 1 second exactly (documented historically by Nasa). Guess what the sura and verse of "the separation of the moon" is?
541

Insincere people who do not understand that God controls everything will say "Yes but hours and minutes are human made, this is a pure coincidence."
This is how they find an exit and believe they saved face.

Moreover, from the end of the Quran to verse 542 included, there are 1389 verses, the lunar year in the Hijri calendar for the "splitting of the moon".
This means that since the event occured well into the 1389th lunar year (the 6th day of the 5th month 1389 in the Hijri calendar), symbolically 541 displays even more precisely that the "splitting of the moon" indeed took place exactly in verse 541, inside the 1389th lunar year in the Hijri calendar.

What will insincere people say in the face of these great miracles of the Quran They will say "Yes, but the Hijri calendar is man made, it is but a coincidence." Pharaoh would have said something similar "this is but clever magic". History repeats itself.
Again, God controls everything , He uses systems like calendars (which hundreds of millions of people understand) to display His signs, and shows intelligent people (that is to say sincere) that indeed He supports the Hijri calendar, which is nothing but a continuation of the divine 12 lunar months system that He implemented since the solar system, planet earth and the moon were created (936).

There is more to say about the subject, a lot more. People who are not sincere will keep on arguing, even though those profound signs are from God and are engraved in the holy Quran. This is where people who believe in God are seperated from those who "no matter what kind of proofs, they willl not believe. (305"

3058 Thus, we have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples. Yet, no matter what kind of proof you present to the disbelievers, they say, "You are falsifiers."

Peace.

Pierre

Ayisha

Salaam Ayman,

Ayman you are not a sincere person There are two forms of plural in Arabic Dual and "more than three".
If you deny this it is not even worth talking with you.
Singular = 1
Plural = 2 or more.

ahem, wrong
dual is 2, plural is 3 or more peace

ayman

For being a "witness" or "bearing witness" one has either to be present on the occasion/point in time and/or he is to be the one who has the knowledge of that. A person in coma is present when any month begins but does not have the knowledge so he is not witnessing anything despite being existing at that point in time. A lunatic does see appearance of a moon but he is not considered to have witnessed it.

Same thing can be said about any verb such as "walking" (those in a coma can't do it). This doesn't mean that "walking" means "present/living and not in a coma". It only means that you are just an idiot parading his stupidity on a public forum and your stupid website. This is why you are scared to bring a single example from the great reading where "shahid" means "living/present and not in a coma."

No one needs to prove a stupid a stupid. Stupids keep giving evidence to this effect at their own.

Indeed stupid is as stupid does. This is unlike your "smart" coma logic and how you evade answering how you would know your stupid manmade Ramadan not because you are clueless but because you are so "smart".

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Pierre,

Ayman you are not a sincere person There are two forms of plural in Arabic Dual and "more than three".
If you deny this it is not even worth talking with you.
Singular = 1
Plural = 2 or more.
Ayman, do you see the little "s" starting from "2 days", it means it is a plural. This is why dual and "more than three" type of plural are found 30 times in Quran, Got that ? )
Either you are really stupid if you do not admit this, or really your ego is sooo big that you will deny simply for the sake of denying and try to save face (unfortunately I am afraid that it is your ego that makes you deny simple things like that ).

It is not my problem that you ignore that in Arabic there is a difference between dual and plural and that plural is "3 or more", which renders everything that you just said nonsense. If being stupid means that unlike you I know that plural is "three or more" and not "more than three" then I would rather be stupid than be so incredibly smart like you. )

Why include the dual in your counts? The only reason is so that you can get to 30, which is not even a real month and no calendar in existence has months with 30 days. So you are falsifying counts to get to what is anyway a false imaginary month.

Anyways Ayman, it is an indisputable fact that there are 30 "days" in Quran, and you got burned. 30 "days" is the maximum number of "days" in the lunar calendar of 12 months decreed by God. It means more but I will keep it simple here.
As for the forms of "day" you have been told in a number of previous debates that there is a peculiar way of counting words in the Quran.
The reason why you deny it is that you refuse to see God's miracle of the Quran like 365 x "day".
The peculiar form of counting singular forms is.... singular generic forms without pronouns attached or else, simply the singular form.
When you open your mind to this then the miracle of 19 and many others like 365 "day" become a reality; they alll click together at the same time which proves their veracity. In other words it is miracle reserved for people who are sincere, on the other hand, insincere people with "closed minds" are forbidden from seeing the miracles. A veil separates them from the believers.

This is false selective numerology counting to reach a preconceived count by hook or by crook. You arbitrarily included "this day" and the non generic form "in the day" and "to a day", etc. but exclude "that day" ("that" is not a pronoun). You also include the accusative but hypocritically excluded it in other counts such as that of "wahid".

How do I know Ramadan is the 9th month out of 12?

This was not my question. Everything you said is based on Muharam being month 1 in year 1. This is why you are evading to answer my real question. Here it is again

Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?

See if you can answer using your numerology crap.

Peace,

Ayman

tauhid101

Peace all,

I think what Pierre needs is a simple question. What ayman is trying to ask you, very consistent I might add, ;D what is the first month of the islamic calender based upon. History tells us the calender starts with the Hijra, the movement of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina. That's why ayman said it is man made. The date of the Hijra could not be taken as the starting point, when one is calculating the moon, the stars, the sun. It must be against God's creation. For example, the chinese calendar starting point is Winter. And they had perfected their calendar since then by using Winter as the starting point.

Now Ramadan is scorching heat, does the Hijra occurs during Summer but then again which month of Summer? Four seasons and three months to a season. How do you confirm the Hijra, by using the code 19, from within the Book of Truth, Pierre? hmm

I hope this is as simple as I can put it. ;D

tauhid101.

ayman

Peace Tauhid,

I think what Pierre needs is a simple question. What ayman is trying to ask you, very consistent I might add, ;D what is the first month of the islamic calender based upon. History tells us the calender starts with the Hijra, the movement of the Prophet from Mecca to Medina. That's why ayman said it is man made. The date of the Hijra could not be taken as the starting point, when one is calculating the moon, the stars, the sun. It must be against God's creation. For example, the chinese calendar starting point is Winter. And they had perfected their calendar since then by using Winter as the starting point.
Now Ramadan is scorching heat, does the Hijra occurs during Summer but then again which month of Summer? Four seasons and three months to a season. How do you confirm the Hijra, by using the code 19, from within the Book of Truth, Pierre? hmm
I hope this is as simple as I can put it. ;D

Thank you for further clarifying the question that neither Pierre nor Mazhar can give a straight answer for.

If you read between the lines in Pierre's response, he seems to be implying that Umar only started the era but the order of the months in the Hijri calendar and Muharam has always been month 1 "since the creation of the heavens and the earth" (even before there were humans around to name it "Muharam&quot. Of course this is complete nonsense for several reasons

Claiming that the god created the heavens and the earth on Muharam 1 before there was even humans around to name anything Muharam is not much different from the Jews who claim that the god completed the creation on a Friday or Sunnis who claim that the god created Adam on Friday. Pierre is exactly like the ignorant Jews and Sunnis who ignore that the week hasn't always been 7 days and this innovation started only about 2500 years ago with the Jews (long after the death of Moses and the revelation of the Torah). Similarly, the Hijri Months and their order hasn't always been around and this is an even more modern invention than the 7 day week.
There is absolutely no evidence of the months in the Hijri calendar prior to Umar. A couple of the months in the Hijri calendar were actually names of seasons used by the Arabs in their nomadic calendar that divided the year into 6 seasons. In this calendar, Rabii-Alawal was in spring and Rabii-Althani was in early fall.
Let's say for argument sake that the Hijri calendar existed before Umar's time (which it didn't) and Umar only decided the beginning of the new era. Still the same problem exists. Ultimately, some guy prior to Umar had to arbitrarily decide when Muharam 1 occurs and the order of the months and this is what really determines when Pierre and Mazhar's Ramadan occurs. So it is a 100% certain and indisputable fact that their so-called Ramadan is manmade arbitrary falsehood that has nothing to do with the god.

This is why they evade answering how they would find their Ramadan purely using the moon cycles if they wake up on a deserted island. This is because in reality their Ramadan is not based on the moon cycles but on arbitrary manmade falsehood. They know that on that day their falsehood will be completely lost from them.

Peace,

Ayman

tauhid101

Peace Ayman,

Agreed with all your arguments there. It seems they are so engrossed with their code 19 and the traditions (it is always there between their lines), they ignored the Truth even when Truth bites them in the eyes.

I did a little research on Google about seasons and the start of winter? And trying to compare the start of winter in China and Saudi Arabia, so that I could use the Chinese calendar and compare them with the Hijri. Roughly.

This is what I find

Winter starts between December 21st and 22nd in the Northern Hemisphere and between March 20th and 21st in the Southern Hemisphere. Meteorologically, it starts on December 1st and June 1st, respectively. According to the lunisolar calendar, it begins around November 7th.

http//answers.yourdictionary.com/science/units-of-measure/when-does-winter-start.html

Since China and Saudi Arabia are both in the northern hemisphere, basically their seasons start at the same time. Basically the Chinese calendar could be used to determine whether the just finished Ramadan is actually the 9th month. With a little research of the Chinese calendar, this is what I get

http//chinesecalendar.orados.com/english.aspx?d=2010-09-12

The calendar shows today

World
Year 2010
Month September (9th month)
Day 12th

Chinese
Year The Tiger
Month 8th Lunar month
Day 5th (15th Autumnal Equinox)

Hijri
Year 1431
Month Syawal (10th month)
Day 2 (Yawm al-Ithnayn - 2nd day)

The difference between the Chinese calendar month and the Hijri calendar month is almost 2 months. These are rough facts which shows the just finish fasting month called Ramadan, could not be the 9th month.

According to the Chinese calendar, the 9th month of this year is next month not last month. According to facts, the differences between the seasons in the northern hemisphere and southern hemisphere is only a day or two. That is between north and south. But a difference of two months in the same hemisphere?

Peace.
tauhid101

hope4

Selam

In my opinion what ever counting system we use as a calendar must be useful to us. For example, we will need this calendar to conduct our daily lives, plant our crops etc. We will need it to determine the seasons and also know the restricted periods in not hunting certain animals to perserve the population. As a result which ever system we use it will be man made. But that man made system will need to be in sink with natural occuring events, so it is easy for us to conduct our daily affairs. The question we must ask is the lunar calendar able to do this? In my opinion, no. It would be very hard for a farmer for example to follow it in knowing the seasons. I read this post which I found very interesting

"The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year) - so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth...." (Q936).

"It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory, and the moon to be a light of beauty, and measured out stages for it, that you might know the number of years and the count of time. Allah did not create this except in truth and righteousness. And He explains His signs in detail, for those who understand" (Q105).

With the above passages from the Quran, it is clear and confirmed by science that the moon orbits the Earth twelve times during the Earth orbits the sun in approximately 354 days. And mankind observing this phenomena has learned to count days and nights, by observing the moon and the sun, and to formulate a calender system either by lunar, or the solar system.

Either way, man has got a counting device to measure time in days, months and years.

The calender is very useful for mankind to schedule his activities, be it for social, business, agricultural, and since the creation of religion by man himself, it is a tool to mark "holy" days for his paganistic events and rituals.

The Hijrah, was setup for religious rituals purposes, and its inventor, decided to go lunar counting, as opposed to the Christian calender (Gregorian - named after Pope Gregory), which is solar based because this would set them apart from the Christians - to be different. Well, the decision to be different put them side-by-side with the Taoist, Bhuddist, and the Hindus, whom use the lunar system.

Fine, whichever method, solar, or lunar, there is nothing wrong in creating a calender for counting time, but the Hijrah was meant to be strictly followed for religious activities, e.g. prayers, fasting, pilgrimage etc., and this is where the fallacy lies.

As we know it, the Hijrah being lunar, has twelve months, and 29/30 days in a month, and therefore does not apply the 7days/week method as the Gregorian. The names of days correspond to the moon cycle, which is day 1,2,3 - 29/30. This is in fact, the same with all the other lunar calender system, which are being practiced by the Chinese, Indians, etc.

Now, the big religious question is, how did "Holy Friday" get into the Hijrah? There is no Friday in the lunar based Hijrah as there is no 7days/week system! Only the Gregorian has the 7days/week system and Friday is the 5th day of the 7 days/week.

It is very clear now that the holy Friday prayer (Jumaat) is following the Gregorian Friday, and the question is - Is there really a Friday prayer to start with? Nothing is mentioned in the Quran about this! I'm not going to delve into this, but the question is even if there is such a prayer, why is it scheduled on the Gregorian Friday? The answer is simple - they forgot about this when they concocted the Hijrah, and the choice of the lunar method does not allow for the 7days/method to be scientifically incorporated into the Hijrah (full stop)!

Ok, lets say they will argue that there is a day called Friday (5th day) in the Hijrah, then there is only one 5th day in a month, and so it would be a monthly prayer instead of weekly.

Again...ok...they will argue and say that there is a 7day/week system in the Hijrah, then how come it correspond to the Gregorian Friday all the time, whilst it is a fact that the Lunar Hijrah days/months/years never correspond to the Gregorian day/week/month/year. The Hijrah Friday would always fall on other Gregorian days and maybe on certain period it would correspond to the Gregorian Friday, but not every week!

Their fasting month of Ramadan attest to this clearly. Whilst they try hard every Hijrah year to be very accurate in proclaiming the start and end of the fast, they blindly (and unashamedly) remix the Gregorian Friday into the new month every year...if the first day of Ramadan falls on the Gregorian Friday... the first day of Ramadan begins on Friday...then, happily and conveniently - they pray...and fast, of course.

Now, as we look into the history of the Hijrah itself (according to Islamic Hijrah experts), briefly, the first day of the Hijrah correspond to the day Muhammad fled Mecca for Medina circa (mind you approximates only) 622 A.D. Since the date given is 'circa', there's no proof that that event took place on the first day of the new moon! Take note that the Hijrah was not conceptualized until 638 A.D. (approx. again), which means by simple mathematics the Hijrah was invented after 16 years in Medina.

As history has it, Muhammad remained for approximately 10 years in Mecca after the Quran was revealed to him. That means the Hijrah was only incorporated 26 years after Muhammad received the Quran.

The big religious question is - How did Muhammad and his followers perform all the rituals of prayers, fasting, and pilgrimage for 26 years before the Hijrah was invented. The only calender being used then, would be the Julian (now Gregorian), and it certainly seems odd that the so called 'Muslims' perform their rituals according to the Julian calender, as the Quran never make any reference to the Julian/Gregorian months of Jan-Dec, nor the days Mon-Sun ?

Since all the historical dates pertaining to Muhammad are 'circa' based, its difficult to determine if Muhammad was around to witness the implementation of the Hijrah, and whats more with all the events having conflicting 'circa' dates it turns any research on this matter into a mind boggling and futile enterprise. Whichever way one looks at it, whats apparent now is that the Hijrah was established after his demise, because his reign as the messenger supposedly only lasted 20 years!

However, one thing is sure, at least according to the Islamic historians and writers - the Hijrah was initiated by one of the companions, and not Muhammad himself, and that to me is the suggestion that he might not have been around.

In summation...when the tool that is used to schedule events, or rituals is inaccurate, and unreliable then the event/ritual that depends on it becomes questionable, or if it should ever take place? One could expect some explanations on this matter coming from them, but I can assure you it would be nothing more than some mathematical nonsense. It surely is something for the 'Muslims' to think about, and mind you this is year 2007, and they are still fumbling in their religion. Mathematically speaking, the Hijrah calendar, at best could only be labelled as 'Conjecture'.

The above verse (Q105) ends with "...for those who understand", obviously, these people don't understand!

Peace

ayman

Peace Tauhid,

Agreed with all your arguments there. It seems they are so engrossed with their code 19 and the traditions (it is always there between their lines), they ignored the Truth even when Truth bites them in the eyes.
I did a little research on Google about seasons and the start of winter? And trying to compare the start of winter in China and Saudi Arabia, so that I could use the Chinese calendar and compare them with the Hijri. Roughly.

17.12. We have made the night and the day as two signs the sign of the night We have obscured, while the sign of the day we have made visible so that you may seek favors from your Lord, and so that you may know the number of years and the calculation, and We have explained all things in detail.

How can we determine the number of years using the ?night and the day?? The ONLY way to use the night and the day to determine the number of years is to count the interval between shortest/longest day and the longest/shortest night, in other words the interval between either the summer solstices or winter solstices. What people call "start" of winter or summer is actually in nature the winter and summer solstices. The fact that the year is the interval between solstices will always be true. Unlike any manmade calendar, even supposedly solar ones where for example, you have a year with 366 days every 4 years to adjust.

So the next question is which of the two solstices to start the count from? The meaning of "ramadan" as provided by Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly point to the summer solstice. You can see more discussions and details on this thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

Also, the following Article in Arabic

http//www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1

Peace,

Ayman

6619

Salaam Ayman and all,

Peace Pierre,

It is not my problem that you ignore that in Arabic there is a difference between dual and plural and that plural is "3 or more", which renders everything that you just said nonsense. If being stupid means that unlike you I know that plural is "three or more" and not "more than three" then I would rather be stupid than be so incredibly smart like you.

Why include the dual in your counts? The only reason is so that you can get to 30, which is not even a real month and no calendar in existence has months with 30 days. So you are falsifying counts to get to what is anyway a false imaginary month.

This is false selective numerology counting to reach a preconceived count by hook or by crook. You arbitrarily included "this day" and the non generic form "in the day" and "to a day", etc. but exclude "that day" ("that" is not a pronoun). You also include the accusative but hypocritically excluded it in other counts such as that of "wahid".

This was not my question. Everything you said is based on Muharam being month 1 in year 1. This is why you are evading to answer my real question. Here it is again

Now tell us how do you know month 1 since month 9 depends on it? From when do you ultimately start counting?

See if you can answer using your numerology crap.

Peace,

Ayman

In Arabic when we say "We are going to the park." is "We" plural or singular?

Now if Ayman and 1 friend (two people) go to the park are they going to say "I am going to the park" or "We are going to the park."
Now if Ayman claims that "we" is singular not plural, everyone will agree he is a liar.
For the same reason in Arabic there is a plural for two (dual) and for three or more entities Two types of plural.
If Ayman does not admit that, he is a liar (and he doesn't because of his big ego, and because it would force him to admit that Quran is mathematically structured). For this reason the plural "days" occurs 30 times in Quran, taking into account both Arabic plural forms.
Ayman lives in denial that the Quran is a mathematically structured book (365 x "day", 30 x "days", 12 x "month&quot.
How blind can people be in the face of such obvious signs ?! nope

30 days is the maximum number of days in a lunar month. Every sincere person knows a lunar month has either 29 or 30 days. If the count for "days" in Quran was 29, then he would object some lunar months have 30 days. What kind of game are you playing Ayman ? You are only fooling yourself and people who are, like you, in complete denial.

Peace.

Pierre