Debate about hajj. The "Bottleneck" Problem.

truth

This week I've had visitors who are re-establishing themselves in Australia after a period in Turkey.

While I hadnt intended to be inquisitive it emerged that the man who is in his 60's has at least one purpose in returning to Australia. To make the so called hajj to modern day Mekka. I make no bones about the fact that I believe this ritual is not the hajj of the koran. In fact I class it together with other practises as "Arab gymnastics" for the ignorant. The ignorant pay their Saudi tax by becoming lulled into this journey.

Anyhow, my first question was why he hadnt just done the hajj via Turkish channels. He said that there was a quota system. I said surely he could just wait his turn. He said that it involved a drawing of names like in a lottery.

I began a line of inquiry stating what he thought of a universal religion, with eternally relevant practises becoming subject to a bottleneck effect.

He was taken aback.

I reminded him of the verses on games of chance and made it clear to him that if hajj had been reduced to a lottery ticket, almost like a Wonka factory tour, then it had already refuted itself.

We moved onto other topics, but it got me thinking further. If 1 billion muslims are supposed to undertake this sights and sounds tour of some Arabian desert city and perform some ritualised Arab gymnastics which have no basis in the koran; then how is it logistically going to work?

They take 3 million or so "pilgrims". 1000/3 = 333 years to get all of them through. Even if they increased the number to 10 million per annum, it relies on a lifespan of 100 years to get all through.

I think the Bottleneck Problem is a serious issue for the physical journey interpretation of hajj.

Your thoughts?

Wakas

I began a line of inquiry stating what he thought of a universal religion, with eternally relevant practises becoming subject to a bottleneck effect.

He was taken aback.

I think it is a reasonable line of inquiry.

I think the Bottleneck Problem is a serious issue for the physical journey interpretation of hajj.

It would be an issue for the physical journey to one location interpretation.

abdullah_m

I've had hajj on my mind recently, so thanks for this invitation to express myself.

First of all, you have to congratulate the Arabs for facilitating millions of visitors each year - for their management of this ordeal and their tolerance of other people of so many different kinds. Perhaps S. Arabia puts a quota on certain countries. It may not be Turkey's fault that there has to be a lottery.

Devout muslims are drawn to the Kaba by a supernatural internal force. It's not like the Arabs are cajoling millions of people into doing something they really don't care about except out of some religious obligation. Even if the Qur'an did not explicitly specify the hajj, human nature would propel people toward the geographical center of their worship. Millions of Christians flock to Jerusalem, even though Saint Paul never demanded it.

I think Satan will try to convince people not to go for any reason like Saudi Tourism, commercialism, taxes, bottlenecks or whatever. Satan does not want you to obey Allah and go to experience the benefits there.

Regarding the bottleneck specifically, we should apply the Qur'an a little bit to mitigate the problem somewhat. The Qur'an says hajj may be performed in any of the sacred months. So that right there would spread out the traffic. If some people still want the whole entertainment package, they can do the 8 day intensive during the middle of the 12th month. Some folks like a script.

However, for those whose hearts are linked with the Ancient House, they should know that they can go other times of the year and get the same benefit.

san

I think Satan will try to convince people not to go for any reason like Saudi Tourism, commercialism, taxes, bottlenecks or whatever.

I wonder what their distribution ratio is between nourishment for impoverished and deprived people in Islamic countries 'round the world, and 'nourishment' for those mushrooming starchitect-designed luxurious towers and glam structures....

Layth

Salam,

Hajj is to be done during 3 months (not 1) which removed the bottleneck issue.

Also, Hajj is to Jerusalem, not Mekka.

Regards,

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace All

This topic of hajj continues to demand a detailed study, which I have started. There are many people that have written about it & interpretations vary. The most important factor in trying to understand anything in AQ is to ensure that your understanding, whatever it may be, does not conflict with the consistency of the Quranic message. As many people on this forum are aware, concepts must be studied as they appear throughout AQ rather than explaining them through isolated occurrences. Thus far in my study it has become clear that once this is done, the concept becomes much clearer.

Regarding the bottleneck problem, here are a few things for consideration

In 397, if we understand the hajj to be for those who are able & have the capability to fulfill the functions of the hajj, it may solve this "bottleneck" problem because we may not find enough people capable of fulfilling these functions for any kind of "bottleneck" problem to exist.

We also tend to think too much in terms of nations. My opinion is that we should think more in terms of communities. When we do this, many problems are resolved, especially those that depend on testimony. Smaller communities are better equipped in distinguishing the characters & reliability of people within their communities. This is important for hajj because in 2228, we are told that one of the aspects of hajj is witnessing the benefits. The people capable of honestly witnessing the benefits & reporting back to their communities may be limited, again greatly reducing any possibility of a bottleneck effect.

As Wakas has pointed out,

It would be an issue for the physical journey to one location interpretation.

This is important in trying to understand Islam in general & hajj in particular in a way that doesn't render it incomprehensible & utterly ridiculous in its practicality.

A more general point for consideration is that it seems to me that before a hajj can take place, a community must exist that is living by the values put forward in the Quran, because if this situation does not exist, how are the benefits of the Quranic way of living going to be witnessed. This does not mean that only Muslims will exist in such a society, but it would rather be a society wherein everybody lives in a condition of Islam, being one in which the environment is one of peace, security, tranquility & freedom.

I wonder what their distribution ratio is between nourishment for impoverished and deprived people in Islamic countries 'round the world, and 'nourishment' for those mushrooming starchitect-designed luxurious towers and glam structures....

This is an important point, san. This point alone would negate the validity of hajj in Saudi Arabia because this stands in total contrast with the teachings of the Quran. Remembering that the call to hajj in 2227 is to all people or communities, if we invited them to hajj in Saudi Arabia to witness the benefits of living by Quranic values, we would be acting as hypocrites in promulgating the Quranic message to them while living in stark contrast to it. A similar argument can be put forward regarding Jerusalem at present, or any place that wants to invite people to witness something that is not a reality within their community. You simply cannot witness what is not their or more importantly, something for which no evidence exists.

The emphasis should therefore first be on the establishment of such a community before inviting anyone to hajj. With this in mind, we are really a long way away from having to worry about any kind of bottleneck problem regarding hajj.

Please let me know your thoughts on these as it would be valuable in my study of the subject.

Imraan

Wakas

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought 'truth' was referring to the Traditional Islam version, which promotes hajj during a set time.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought 'truth' was referring to the Traditional Islam version, which promotes hajj during a set time.

You're right Wakas. I think I got a little carried away in discussing some issues that have come up in my current study.

I would still appreciate any thoughts you may have on my post if they are at all coherent to you.

Imraan

ayman

Peace Abdullah,

Devout muslims are drawn to the Kaba by a supernatural internal force. It's not like the Arabs are cajoling millions of people into doing something they really don't care about except out of some religious obligation. Even if the Qur'an did not explicitly specify the hajj, human nature would propel people toward the geographical center of their worship. Millions of Christians flock to Jerusalem, even though Saint Paul never demanded it.
I think Satan will try to convince people not to go for any reason like Saudi Tourism, commercialism, taxes, bottlenecks or whatever. Satan does not want you to obey Allah and go to experience the benefits there.

The vast majority of the "devout" or not "devout" are drawn to the cube by the belief that if they spin seven times around it they will return sinless like a newborn baby. If the religious authorities announce that this is false and no one will return sinless like a baby then there won't be a "bottleneck" problem and all of those tourism outfits selling a ticket for heaven will go out of business.

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker171

The Koranic -hajj- was only during the lifetime of the -rasool-.

Verse 2227 - And proclaim that the people shall observe -el hajj-. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (?), they will come from the farthest locations.-

This verse is clear according to the Koran the -hajj- only can happen during the life-time of the -rasool-.

According to verse 2227 only the -rasool- has the authority to proclaim the -hajj- and to choose a timing for it within the restricted four full moons - 2197.
Verse 2227 states that the visitors of the -hajj- come to the -rasool-.

Since the -rasool- has passed away there is not a Koranic -hajj- anymore.

The purpose of the Koranic -hajj-, was to commemorate God and His guidance ? verse 2203 and 2198.

Verse 2198 - You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord. When you file from -arafaat- (the phase of recognition - honoring the message of the Koran) then you shall commemorate God at the -restricted location-. You shall commemorate Him for guiding you, before this, you had gone astray. -

The guidance of the believers is the Koran ? verse 2185.
The Koranic -hajj- was an instructive conference kept by the -rasool-, to spread the message of the Koran and its guidance.
Since the message of the Koran has been spread around the world the -hajj- in the Koranic sense is redundant and impossible, since the -hajj- was to be announced by the -rasool-, the participants came to be instructed and or to be convinced by the -rasool-.
The Arabic word -hajj- means amongst others to convince. So -el hajj- means the process of convincing.

Anyone who claims that nowadays the Islamic -hajj- is still possible should answer two questions

1 Who on earth has nowadays the authority to announce -the hajj- and to decide at which moment within the four restricted moons it has to happen?
2 Who is the -rasool- to whom the participants of the -hajj- have to come?

As long as these two questions can not be answered in a satisfying manner, the -hajj- is not relevant to the followers of the Koran.
The research that is done currently about the purpose and form of the -hajj- seems to have only historical relevance.

Visit to Islamic safe-houses

Verse 396 - The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka, full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings -

Verse 397 - Therein are manifest signs the place where Abraham stood; and whoever enters it, shall be safe. And (it is a duty) towards God, for those who are able to go there, to visit this house, but for those who disbelieve, verily God does not need anyone. -

These verses show us that there was a first house of worship as a place of freedom and guidance.
The wording -first house- indicates that there can be around the world other houses for the monotheists to gather for communal activities, within the frame-work of guidance to the people and of service to God alone.
Since the Koran has spread around the world ? the believers are not confined to Mekka to receive a form of guidance there ? this was only during the life-time of the -rasool-.

The visit to such a safe-house is different from the -hajj-, nevertheless the wording -hijju albayti- in verse 397. This refers to the endeavor to visit the safe-house regularly, this is different from the noun -el hajj-, which means amongst others the process of convincing.
We cannot convince a house, but we can visit an Islamic safe-house regularly.

The visit to an Islamic safe-house, as firstly has been build by Abraham, is not regulated by the Koranic rulings for the Islamic -el hajj-.

The four restricted full moons are not relevant for the timing of the visit to the -restricted house-.
People need not be in a -restricted state- as in the way of the historical Islamic -hajj-.
There is no hunting-prohibition.
There are no rulings concerning the food-provision.
The duration of the visit is not regulated.
So the communities that share an Islamic safe-house can make the needed regulations on the basis of mutual consultation within the framework of the Koran.

Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every opinion should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

ayman

Peace Truthseeker171,

Which "hajj" is the irrelevant one and which is the relevant one? Is the irrelevant one "the convincing one" and the one still to be practiced "the visting a building one"?

The Koranic -hajj- was only during the lifetime of the -rasool-.
Verse 2227 - And proclaim that the people shall observe -el hajj-. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (?), they will come from the farthest locations.-
This verse is clear according to the Koran the -hajj- only can happen during the life-time of the -rasool-.

According to verse 2227 only the -rasool- has the authority to proclaim the -hajj- and to choose a timing for it within the restricted four full moons - 2197.
Verse 2227 states that the visitors of the -hajj- come to the -rasool-.
Since the -rasool- has passed away there is not a Koranic -hajj- anymore.

Coming from the furthest places sure sounds like "visiting" and not "convincing". Your starting argument from 2227 actually contradicts your following conclusion

The Arabic word -hajj- means amongst others to convince. So -el hajj- means the process of convincing.

It also contradicts 397, where it is said that it is a duty in all times, rasul or not, to do "hajj".

Verse 397 - Therein are manifest signs the place where Abraham stood; and whoever enters it, shall be safe. And (it is a duty) towards God, for those who are able to go there, to visit this house, but for those who disbelieve, verily God does not need anyone. -

These verses show us that there was a first house of worship as a place of freedom and guidance.
The wording -first house- indicates that there can be around the world other houses for the monotheists to gather for communal activities, within the frame-work of guidance to the people and of service to God alone.
Since the Koran has spread around the world ? the believers are not confined to Mekka to receive a form of guidance there ? this was only during the life-time of the -rasool-.
The visit to such a safe-house is different from the -hajj-, nevertheless the wording -hijju albayti- in verse 397. This refers to the endeavor to visit the safe-house regularly, this is different from the noun -el hajj-, which means amongst others the process of convincing.
We cannot convince a house, but we can visit an Islamic safe-house regularly.

This is illogical and is not based on any known linguistic rules. How is "hajj" different from "el-hajj"? Can you give any other example from Arabic (or any language for that matter) where just by the virtue of adding the definite article the meaning changes completely as opposed to simply becoming definite?

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker171

Salaam Ayman

Which "hajj" is the irrelevant one and which is the relevant one? Is the irrelevant one "the convincing one" and the one still to be practiced "the visting a building one"?

In the Koran is mentioned -el hajj- with defined conditions and purpose, these are independent from the translation of the word -el hajj- for instance as a process of convincing or as a visit.
Verse 2227 contains two conditions for -el hajj-
1 The -rasool- should proclaim -el hajj-.
2 -El hajj- is a visit to the living -rasool- this is determined by the wording -they come to you-.
The purpose of -el hajj- is determined by verse 2198.
According to this verse the purpose of -el hajj- was the process of acknowledgement -arafaat- and the remembrance of God and His guidance. The guidance from God comes via the verses of the Koran, so the guidance relates to the deliverance of Koranic guidance by the -rasool- to the participants of -el hajj-. There seems not to be a verse in the Koran that changes these conditions and purposes of -el hajj-.
There are no inconsistencies/contradictions in the Koran, 482.
The assumption that there can be -el hajj- after the departure of the -rasool- would contradict the Koranic purposes of -el hajj-, as a journey to the -rasool- and receiving guidance during the visit to the -rasool-, which are stated in verses 2227 and 2198.

This is illogical and is not based on any known linguistic rules. How is "hajj" different from "el-hajj"? Can you give any other example from Arabic (or any language for that matter) where just by the virtue of adding the definite article the meaning changes completely as opposed to simply becoming definite?

There is a structural difference between the wording -el hajj- and -hijju el bayti-, not because of a definite or indefinite form, but because of the change of context caused by the addition of the wording -el bayti-.
The obligation for the believing people to visit a safe-house as mentioned in verse 397 does not refer to -el hajj- that relates only to the visit to and receiving guidance from the -rasool-.
-Hijju el bayti- refers to the endeavour to visit a safe-house as described in verse 2226, which has the function of being a place to congregate for the -tawaaf- and -aqeema- and -rookoo- -soojood- (the latter three refer to -salaat-), according to this verse. Here is no mentioning of a communal offering of animals, acknowledgement (-arafaat-) and guidance.
This visit to a safe-house can happen throughout the year and is not restricted to the few days within the time-frame of the -restricted months-.
So even when the meaning of the word -hajj- is confined to the meaning of a visit, the concepts of -el hajj- and -hijju el bayti- are different.
A visit to the -rasool- is different from a regular visit to a safe-house. -El-hajj- is not possible since the departure of the -rasool-, but -hijju el bayti- is independent from the presence of the -rasool- and can be done regularly by the believers who are in the vicinity of a safe-house.

An interesting difference between -el hajj- during the lifetime of the -rasool- and the general -hijju el bayti- that is independent from the presence of the -rasool-, might concern the provision of food.
According to verse 2236 during -el hajj- (2227) there had to be animal offerings to eat from and to share with the poor and the animals had to stand in a row. Probably the animals had to wear garlands according to verse 597. This communal moment of slaughtering, suggests that there was a central moment of gathering during the restricted months when the people came to visit the -rasool-.
So the participants could not pick random days during the -restricted months- to perform -el hajj-, otherwise the larger amount of people would probably miss the obligatory communal moment of the slaughtering and feast. Besides that, the -rasool- would have to be present at the same place during the whole period of the -restricted months-, since verse 2227 states that el-hajj is a visit to the -rasool-. That would be hardly imaginable.
Verse 2158 states that concerning the -hijju el bayti-, it is no mistake for the participants and visitors to -go amongst the animals and stone-, a possible translation of -safa- and -marwa-. So the way of food-provision can be organised based on mutual consultation, this is different from the obligatory character of the offering of animals during -el hajj- mentioned in verse 2236. In the case of -hijju el bayti- the people who do not find something to give are not obliged to have a fast of three days as a participant and of seven days after coming home again, as was obligatory during -el hajj- according to verse 2196.

Verse 928 - O you who believe, the idol-worshippers are unclean; they shall not be permitted to approach the -restricted masjid- after this year. If you fear loss of income, God will shower you with His provisions, in accordance with His will. God is Omniscient, Most Wise. -

So according to the Koran after a certain year the idol-worshippers were not allowed to approach the -restricted masjid-, the central place of -el hajj-.
This ruling confirms that -el hajj- was an instructive conference with the -rasool-, forbidden for the idol-worshippers.
Probably hereby the character of the yearly gathering to the Ka?ba (595, 597) changed from a general festival into a gathering of the believers who came to be informed and guided by the -rasool-.
This ruling facilitates the demand of the -restricted state-, stated in verse 2197, of the participants of -el hajj-.
The prohibition of for instance arguments and intercourse can be prescribed for the believers but hardly for unbelievers, since they are not within the system of Islam. Also the requirement of the fasting of the poor of 3 and 7 days (2196) becomes more understandable since it is only directed to believers who share the system of Islam and not to random guests with several frames of reference. The same is the matter with the ruling on cutting the hair - verses 2196, 4827.
The prohibition of arguments is compatible with the approach that -el hajj- was an instructive conference with the -rasool-, since debates and arguments could diminish the process of giving guidance by the -rasool-. The main aim of -el hajj- was the acknowlegdement (arafaat) of the message of the -rasool-, therefore arguments and debates where forbidden.
The approach that -el hajj- is a feast where non-believers can be converted to Islam by the example of a mono-theistic community, seems not to be compatible with verse 928, since it prohibits the idol-worshippers to approach the -restricted masjid- where -el hajj- apparently took place.

Verse 2227 - And proclaim that the people shall observe -el hajj-. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (?), they will come from the farthest locations.-

Anyone who claims that after the departure of the -rasool- -el hajj- is still possible, should answer two questions
1 Which person on earth has nowadays the authority to decide on which days the hajj would be within the time-frame of the -restricted months-?
2 Who would be the person who the believers should visit, since -el hajj- is related to coming to a living person - 2227?
As long as these questions are not answered in a satisfying manner, then the study of the conditions and purpose of -el hajj- seems to have only historical relevance.

Truthseeker171

almarh0m

Salaam Ayman

In the Koran is mentioned -el hajj- with defined conditions and purpose, these are independent from the translation of the word -el hajj- for instance as a process of convincing or as a visit.
Verse 2227 contains two conditions for -el hajj-
1 The -rasool- should proclaim -el hajj-.
2 -El hajj- is a visit to the living -rasool- this is determined by the wording -they come to you-.
The purpose of -el hajj- is determined by verse 2198.
According to this verse the purpose of -el hajj- was the process of acknowledgement -arafaat- and the remembrance of God and His guidance. The guidance from God comes via the verses of the Koran, so the guidance relates to the deliverance of Koranic guidance by the -rasool- to the participants of -el hajj-. There seems not to be a verse in the Koran that changes these conditions and purposes of -el hajj-.
There are no inconsistencies/contradictions in the Koran, 482.
The assumption that there can be -el hajj- after the departure of the -rasool- would contradict the Koranic purposes of -el hajj-, as a journey to the -rasool- and receiving guidance during the visit to the -rasool-, which are stated in verses 2227 and 2198.

There is a structural difference between the wording -el hajj- and -hijju el bayti-, not because of a definite or indefinite form, but because of the change of context caused by the addition of the wording -el bayti-.
The obligation for the believing people to visit a safe-house as mentioned in verse 397 does not refer to -el hajj- that relates only to the visit to and receiving guidance from the -rasool-.
-Hijju el bayti- refers to the endeavour to visit a safe-house as described in verse 2226, which has the function of being a place to congregate for the -tawaaf- and -aqeema- and -rookoo- -soojood- (the latter three refer to -salaat-), according to this verse. Here is no mentioning of a communal offering of animals, acknowledgement (-arafaat-) and guidance.
This visit to a safe-house can happen throughout the year and is not restricted to the few days within the time-frame of the -restricted months-.
So even when the meaning of the word -hajj- is confined to the meaning of a visit, the concepts of -el hajj- and -hijju el bayti- are different.
A visit to the -rasool- is different from a regular visit to a safe-house. -El-hajj- is not possible since the departure of the -rasool-, but -hijju el bayti- is independent from the presence of the -rasool- and can be done regularly by the believers who are in the vicinity of a safe-house.

An interesting difference between -el hajj- during the lifetime of the -rasool- and the general -hijju el bayti- that is independent from the presence of the -rasool-, might concern the provision of food.
According to verse 2236 during -el hajj- (2227) there had to be animal offerings to eat from and to share with the poor and the animals had to stand in a row. Probably the animals had to wear garlands according to verse 597. This communal moment of slaughtering, suggests that there was a central moment of gathering during the restricted months when the people came to visit the -rasool-.
So the participants could not pick random days during the -restricted months- to perform -el hajj-, otherwise the larger amount of people would probably miss the obligatory communal moment of the slaughtering and feast. Besides that, the -rasool- would have to be present at the same place during the whole period of the -restricted months-, since verse 2227 states that el-hajj is a visit to the -rasool-. That would be hardly imaginable.
Verse 2158 states that concerning the -hijju el bayti-, it is no mistake for the participants and visitors to -go amongst the animals and stone-, a possible translation of -safa- and -marwa-. So the way of food-provision can be organised based on mutual consultation, this is different from the obligatory character of the offering of animals during -el hajj- mentioned in verse 2236. In the case of -hijju el bayti- the people who do not find something to give are not obliged to have a fast of three days as a participant and of seven days after coming home again, as was obligatory during -el hajj- according to verse 2196.

Verse 928 - O you who believe, the idol-worshippers are unclean; they shall not be permitted to approach the -restricted masjid- after this year. If you fear loss of income, God will shower you with His provisions, in accordance with His will. God is Omniscient, Most Wise. -

So according to the Koran after a certain year the idol-worshippers were not allowed to approach the -restricted masjid-, the central place of -el hajj-.
This ruling confirms that -el hajj- was an instructive conference with the -rasool-, forbidden for the idol-worshippers.
Probably hereby the character of the yearly gathering to the Ka?ba (595, 597) changed from a general festival into a gathering of the believers who came to be informed and guided by the -rasool-.
This ruling facilitates the demand of the -restricted state-, stated in verse 2197, of the participants of -el hajj-.
The prohibition of for instance arguments and intercourse can be prescribed for the believers but hardly for unbelievers, since they are not within the system of Islam. Also the requirement of the fasting of the poor of 3 and 7 days (2196) becomes more understandable since it is only directed to believers who share the system of Islam and not to random guests with several frames of reference. The same is the matter with the ruling on cutting the hair - verses 2196, 4827.
The prohibition of arguments is compatible with the approach that -el hajj- was an instructive conference with the -rasool-, since debates and arguments could diminish the process of giving guidance by the -rasool-. The main aim of -el hajj- was the acknowlegdement (arafaat) of the message of the -rasool-, therefore arguments and debates where forbidden.
The approach that -el hajj- is a feast where non-believers can be converted to Islam by the example of a mono-theistic community, seems not to be compatible with verse 928, since it prohibits the idol-worshippers to approach the -restricted masjid- where -el hajj- apparently took place.

Verse 2227 - And proclaim that the people shall observe -el hajj-. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (?), they will come from the farthest locations.-

Anyone who claims that after the departure of the -rasool- -el hajj- is still possible, should answer two questions
1 Which person on earth has nowadays the authority to decide on which days the hajj would be within the time-frame of the -restricted months-?
2 Who would be the person who the believers should visit, since -el hajj- is related to coming to a living person - 2227?
As long as these questions are not answered in a satisfying manner, then the study of the conditions and purpose of -el hajj- seems to have only historical relevance.

Truthseeker171

Peace

This argument that "Hajj" , is a call to visit "The Living Rasul " and therefore is only valid during the life time of The Messenger is utter nonsense. Rendering verses of the Qur'an as redundant is nothing but sheer stupity . As the call to "hajj" had been in place since the time of Noah and Abraham according 4213 and perhaps even earlier . If we were to follow your twisted logic , then , the call to hajj in whatever meaning you wish to interpret it , only valid during the life times of the respective prophets and messengers ? And what about the verses that denies Allah abrogates his own words and to every nation/tribe was and is sent a messenger ? This is the problem when one is deeply bogged down in the traditional sunni/muhammadan religion . If The Qur'an does not support your religious view , why not twist it to order huh ?

Peace and Guidance of Allah to all truth-seekers .

unknownuser

Verse 2227 - And proclaim that the people shall observe -el hajj-. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (?), they will come from the farthest locations.-

Anyone who claims that after the departure of the -rasool- -el hajj- is still possible, should answer two questions
1 Which person on earth has nowadays the authority to decide on which days the hajj would be within the time-frame of the -restricted months-?
2 Who would be the person who the believers should visit, since -el hajj- is related to coming to a living person - 2227?
As long as these questions are not answered in a satisfying manner, then the study of the conditions and purpose of -el hajj- seems to have only historical relevance.

Truthseeker171

Peace,

There's is no contradiction; read in context ignore verse numbers which often confuse people and see who exactly was being told to make the proclamation to mankind and set the foundation for hajj...

(2226-27)
And when We assigned to Ibrahim (the) site the House "That (do) not associate with Me anything and purify My House for those who circumambulate and those who stand and those who bow, those who prostrate and proclaim to mankind bil-aji they will come to you walking and on every lean camel; they will come from every mountain highway distant that they may witness benefits for them?

abdullah_m

I also find this important, that according to Al-Qur'an, hajj is for all of humanity, not just muslims. Thus it synthetically broadens the scope of Islam beyond the most current manifestation.

But check this logic. One God, one planet, one center/focus of worship. Tawhid is to be applied at every level and to the inside and the outside. New age religion calls this "Unity Consciousness" and other things. Now that we are standing at the end of time with a global awareness, it is necessary for the final revealed religion to become the dominant religion of the world. Before, while human communities were relatively isolated, various forms of the primordial Islam were in effect and were beneficial.

Now at the final stage of human flowering, cultural mixing, and technological domination of the whole earth, Allah throws in a magnet to align all the little iron filings as the greatest sign of His presence and proof of a higher order in the Universe.

Can you not see how the phenomenon of hajj is ultimately dawah for all people?

truthseeker171

Salaam Almarhum

This argument that "Hajj" , is a call to visit "The Living Rasul " and therefore is only valid during the life time of The Messenger is utter nonsense. Rendering verses of the Qur'an as redundant is nothing but sheer stupity . As the call to "hajj" had been in place since the time of Noah and Abraham according 4213 and perhaps even earlier .

The Koran has to be read carefully concerning the right time-frames.
The present tense refers to the time-frame of the presence of the -rasool- Mohammad. Not always to the period after the departure of the messenger. Of course the instructions for the -hajj- were given in the present tense, because they had to be applied in the present tense of the believers in those days.
Verses 765, 773 and 785 for instance are also written in the present tense-form and refer to the messengers Hud, Saleh and Shuaib. Those messengers departed before the messenger Mohammad.
Verse 4213 states that the religion since Noah has been the same. So it is likely that -el hajj- in the form of a visit to the living -rasool- has been in use before.
Verse 2728 mentions the existence of pilgrimages during the time of Moses, we can not know what form of -hajj- this was, we do not know if the people of Madian where mono-theists.
The Koranic history of the messenger Shuaib and the people of Madian suggests that they were pagans (for instance verse 1194-95). In this context a -hajj- is not to a living -rasool-, it might refer to a kind of regular gathering, for instance a harvest-festival.
Furthermore, according to verse 350 the messenger can also convey a change of an existing sharia, so that is why we can not be shure if the sharia of the Koran is the same as the sharia given by all former messengers.

If we were to follow your twisted logic , then , the call to hajj in whatever meaning you wish to interpret it , only valid during the life times of the respective prophets and messengers ? And what about the verses that denies Allah abrogates his own words and to every nation/tribe was and is sent a messenger ?

The -el hajj el akbar- (93) was a conference with the living -rasool-, as verse 2227 states. Compared to for instance a yearly harvest-festival, the greater -hajj- was to the living -rasool- for receiving Koranic guidance. This is not a matter of abrogation, but acceptance of the ruling of verse 2227.
Mohammad was the last messenger, so there is no Koranic - el hajj- to any person in the world after the departure of the -rasool-.
The yearly gathering in Mekka has many elements that are not found in the Koran, but can be an example of -hijju el bayti-, the visit to a restricted house - verse 397.

Truthseeker171

truthseeker171

Salaam Noon de Plume

There's is no contradiction; read in context ignore verse numbers which often confuse people and see who exactly was being told to make the proclamation to mankind and set the foundation for hajj...
(2226-27)
And when We assigned to Ibrahim (the) site the House "That (do) not associate with Me anything and purify My House for those who circumambulate and those who stand and those who bow, those who prostrate and proclaim to mankind bil-aji they will come to you walking and on every lean camel; they will come from every mountain highway distant that they may witness benefits for them?

The context is clear from verse 2225.
Verse 2225 tells about the abuse of the Islamic safe-house by the infidels - this is within the time-frame of the life of Mohammad.
Verse 2226 refers to Abraham as the founder of an Islamic safe-house and the purpose of it.
Verse 2227 informs Mohammad and the believers about the Islamic -hajj-, a conference with the living -rasool-.

If you read verses 2230, 2233, 2234, 2236 and 2237 together with verse 2227 than you might see that verse 2227 refers to the -rasool- Mohammad.

If you still see this otherwise than for instance verse 395 becomes relevant.
According to this verse Mohammad follows the religion of Abraham. So even if you assume that verse 2227 refers to Abraham than this ruling about the -hajj- being a visit to the living -rasool- is valid.

Truthseeker171

truthseeker171

Salaam Abdullah_m

I also find this important, that according to Al-Qur'an, hajj is for all of humanity, not just muslims. Thus it synthetically broadens the scope of Islam beyond the most current manifestation.

But check this logic. One God, one planet, one center/focus of worship. Tawhid is to be applied at every level and to the inside and the outside. New age religion calls this "Unity Consciousness" and other things. Now that we are standing at the end of time with a global awareness, it is necessary for the final revealed religion to become the dominant religion of the world. Before, while human communities were relatively isolated, various forms of the primordial Islam were in effect and were beneficial.

Now at the final stage of human flowering, cultural mixing, and technological domination of the whole earth, Allah throws in a magnet to align all the little iron filings as the greatest sign of His presence and proof of a higher order in the Universe.
Can you not see how the phenomenon of hajj is ultimately dawah for all people?

Nowadays the yearly gathering in Mekka has many elements that are not found in the Koran, which endangers the participants to commit idolatry - verse 931.

Verse 928 - O you who believe, the idol-worshippers are unclean; they shall not be permitted to approach the -restricted masjid- after this year. If you fear loss of income, God will shower you with His provisions, in accordance with His will. God is Omniscient, Most Wise. -

There is no abrogation concerning the verses of the Koran
Verse 9.28 is clear, only the ones who got rid of idol-worship are allowed to approach the -restricted masjid-.
Verse 2227 states that -el hajj- is to the living -rasool-.

The Koran can be the magnet metaphorically, as you beautifully describe. The Koran is available almost all over the world and can be an inspiration to the people to live righteous lives and create just societies.
Islamic safe-houses can be founded at many places, in the tradition of Abraham - verse 396-97. The believing people can gather there regularly, -hijju el bayti-, to congregate for -tawaaf- and as-salaat - verse 2226.
Of course next to regional forms of -hijju el bayti-, there is nothing against a yearly central form of -hijju el bayti- in one place.
As long as this happens according the exact ruling of the Koran, to congregate for -tawaaf- and as-salaat.
For instance throwing pebbles to pillars can better be avoided, since this tradition is based on sources next to the Koran.
We can not call it -el hajj- because according to verse 2227 that term is reserved for the communal visit to the living -rasool-, so the Koranic rulings concerning -el hajj-, like the communal offering of animals (2236) probably wearing garlands (597), the -restricted state- of the participants (2197) and the fasting-days of the poor (2196) seem not to be relevant to -hijju el bayti-.

Truthseeker171

Wakas

peace t171,

You may wish to re-consider your translation of key terms, e.g. see the first post here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601181.0

truthseeker171

Salaam Wakas

Thank you for the notice concerning the list of possible translations of the relevant words.

You may wish to re-consider your translation of key terms, e.g. see the first post here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601181.0

Some relevant words from the list are
bayt = a vehicle/medium for rest/tranquility/shelter, which one can enter
can be a physical building or place, e.g. house, but can also be used to signify any real-world structure, e.g. deen, hence "people of the house", i.e. those living under God's deen

al bayt al haram = the sanctified/restricted house
An area satisfying the criteria of God's bayt/deen, considered a safety/sanctury for all who abide by its law. The concept of a "haram" was very common in Arabia.

maSJD = mode/manner/place of SJD, implementation of SJD
In Quran's context it means any command/decree in it that is actioned/implemented/done, put in place, put into practice etc.

al maSJD al haram = the sanctified/restricted implemented/actioned SJD
Refers to a system/entity implementing special/particular act(s) of SJD, e.g. of which could be contained in a treaty , or present in a location, or be one's direction/focus .

It is good to be aware of the literal and figural use of the wording of the Koran.
The possible meaning of the relevant words do not give a reason to adjust the opinion that -el hajj- was an instructive conference with the living -rasool-, verses 2198, 2227.

The term -hijju el bayti- interpretated as a regular visit to an Islamic safe-house (-bayt el haram-) is supported by the meaning given to -el bayt- as a possible physical place.

Verse 928 - O you who believe, the idol-worshippers are unclean; they shall not be permitted to approach the -restricted masjid- after this year. If you fear loss of income, God will shower you with His provisions, in accordance with His will. God is Omniscient, Most Wise.

Verse 928 seems to indicate a literal use of the wording -masjid el haraam-, a geographical place for -soojood- (possibly in a literal and symbolical way), according to the list, that is a possible interpretation.
One could hardly imagine that the idol-worshippers would not be allowed to be converted to Islam, the system prescribed by God after a certain year, because of this verse.
The forming of a monotheistic place in literal and figural sense and thereby the exclusion of the presence of idol-worshippers seems to be the issue here.

Truthseeker171