Bible and Quran as one?
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Dear friends
A few weeks ago I woke up in the middle of the night and had what one could describe as a "moment"
You know how there is a seemingly endless discussion about the number of prayers a day. Some say two, others three or five. I have myself not been very active in that discussion because I don't speak arabic and it seems one must in order to interpret the verses correctly.
Anyways, I have been "monitoring" the forum because I feel it is important to figure out the correct number. In one forum (can't remember if it was on FM or some other) someone pointed out that whenever the BIBLE mention prayers it is three.I got it also to three, but like I said, that is by reading the english version of the Quran. I got this without trying to analyse it, just by reading so to say.
This topic has nothing to do with prayers, but more of someone mentioning of the bible as a source of knowledge. That thought planted itself firmly in the back of my mind. And then, the "moment" came..............
I have always seen the Quran as the last message and the reason Allah sent it down was to rectify the mis-interpratations made by man of the old and new testament. But what if I am wrong? Maybe I am supposed to see the old testament, new testament and the Quran as one message? Three chapters to understand God?
We are struggling to agree on the number of prayers, but if we were to see the bible as a message from Allah and using it as a source, then surely we would agree on three.
There has been a lot of oppression, wars and other horrible things done by the followers of one book, what would happen if three books were to be followed? Would there still be any "excuse" to make war and oppress people? Is it possible to follow three books or are they contradicting eachother grossly?
Traditional muslims use hadiths to understand, christians and jews use their priests, we QA are trying to use the Quran as the only source. Maybe the traditionals don't need hadiths, the answers to their questions can perhaps be found in the bible. The christians and jews can perhaps make their priests obsolete by using the Quran as a source of Allah's message. Maybe we are to read three books to understand the one message?
I don't know, I haven't gone too deep into this subject. But what do you guys think? you gonna tell me to stay off the drugs?
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U could be right, for when u try to proove three prayers from the quran, it's very easy, u go to verses that speals about 3 salats, it"s when u try to proove that ther's 2 or 4 or 5 that it becomes difficult and struggle to proove it, to proove how many salats in the quran people keep making the same mistakes, there no salat names, only salat times, names are made up by man, even when allah say salat isha and salat fadjr, theses are not names but times, the only name for any salat is salat
u went to the bible and found 3 prayers, could be true , there's only 3
but nobody tryed to investigate the problem, where did the 5 prayers come from, the hadith ofcourse, there's people who argue that 5 times a day is part of us, from generation to generation, and these people contradict themselves when they say we only follow the quran, and the quran is clear, don't follow your ancestors blindly, just because u found them doing it, well anyway,
if u study the hadith, the main source of 5 prayers, you find many hadith who spraks about 3 times, exemple, there's a hadith that says the prophet prayed 2 rakaa at dawn, 8 rakaa at dhohr and 7 rakaa at ishaa and the hadith continues..there was no rain nor war , there are around 8 haith like this, that's what i found
there's a hadith that says aisha said the messenger of allah prayed ASR whrn the sun was very hight in the sky, and sometimes prayed asr when the light of the sun get all the way in the room from the window.
there's hadiths that says ' we prayed asr in medina and we travelled to another town and we found them praying asr- there's no hadith that speaks of 5 times of prayer, there's only hadith who speaks about the 5prayers whom u can't investigate because they're plain like that , or i just didn't get to it, for there are thousands of hadith
the most famous hadith that speaks about 5 prayers is the one of ISRA and MIRADJ, and this hadith is proven a fake, i am not a scholar to tell people how many prayers there are a day, but if someine has doubt, and u love allah, than go for 5 until prooven otherwise,
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read these, read between lines ofcourse, and see if it fits 5 or 3 , read all of them, some of them sounds like fabrication, but read between lines, i feel like there were 3 , when u read most of them u feel there was people trying to impose 5 on the others, to make them more religious i guess, again i might be wrong, here's the link
http//www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=1&translator=4&start=0&number=0 -
Dear Loxbox
What you write is exactly my point. There are many interpretations to how many prayers, and all have their different versions and sources. Some hadith, some Quran.....But not many people would use, or dare use the Bible as a tool to understand the Quran. If you were to do that you would have to accept the whole Bible as a message of Allah, and then all of a sudden you would have made a bond, a salaat between Islam and Christianity.
Basically my "dilemma" is this
Islam=Muslim
Christianity=Christian
Judaism=JewishOR
Islam + Christianity + Judaism = One
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Not regarding prayer particularly but I agree, I think the message is in all the books, or should I says all the messages from God. I have been looking a lot at Torah recently and have no doubt those 5 books of Moses are from God, although not word for word as we have Quran, BUT saying that I have not looked at Hebrew much or whether this is actually supposed to be word for word rather than 'inspired' as the Bible is supposed to be. I think Torah is possibly supposed to be word for word and not knowing Hebrew we lose a lot. The Bible however, I think has to be treated more carefully as it is not clear which of this is 'injeel' and which is 'inspired' writings. I know Paul played a huge part and I don't trust that guy much from my readings! This is where it is better to look at what was taken out of the Bible over 300 years later, there is more chance of a better understanding.
Regarding prayer, personally I am at the point when I think one should pray 'regularly' and that would include some in the morning, afternoon and night but I am moving away from 'you should pray at this or that time' and more towards when I feel I need or want to pray as that is better than performing a ritual lip service at certain times, this is when I feel a real connection happens. As I study and pray and wait for those same 'moments' this idea could of course change ;D
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interesting topic..iv been reading bit of the old testament..initially when i read it..i thought the idea of God in quran and bible is very different..the bible personifies God a lot..but when i looked past these difference i did see a comon pattern of obedience solely to God...i am vry interested in all three books and have a strong pull towards them interms of understanding their message...ur right..we can either look at a couple of verses frm the bible and say well thats not right, im not going to continue reading it...or we can try to overlook the minor differences and try to identify and recognise the truth that possibly remains in it...i do some bible study sessions with a couple of christians and i love hanging out with them...because they try to live their life with God as their main focus..their idea of God is different yes i agree...but i learn how to be a better person and a better muslim by watching them interact with their church members and other ppl..so i think that theres sthing we can all learn frm these 3 religions combined..theres sthing there....may be just a hunch..but worth looking into.after all we should go to any extent to find more ways of getting closer to God and the truth.
peace. -
Phew......good to hear that I was not totally off-beat....in my social circles there are some people who would hang me from the nearest tree just for mentioning islam, christianity and judaism in the same sentence.
I think I will go deeper into this and just like you guys, perhaps discuss more with christians/jews instead of mainstream muslims, I find it quite frustrating sometimes that we (QA versus Mainstream) cannot agree on the extent of our beloved prophet Muhammed's role.
BTW, a friend of mine asked (when he found out I call myself muslim) "So, you stick your ass in the air five times a day now?" I laughed until I cried....I never, as my friend so very exquisitively put it, stick my ass in the air. I try to keep the bond, the salaat, with Allah 24/7. I try to remember him everything I do, how I interact with people, how I treat my loved ones, etc.
However, I feel it is important to agree on two, three or five prayers because if we can agree, then we can start to focus on more important issues, I am a little frustrated that we have to argue about the little things.....Sorry, no offence meant by saying praying is a little thing. -
at first you guys said study the quran alone as a source for relation between us and god, and ignore the hadith that came later 300 years, now it's time to go back 600 years for the new testament looking for our religious stuff after the corruption of the bibile, and back to the old testament after 1000 years of corruption and misinterpretation, well i believe we can learn everything, even budhism and hinduism for our cultural growth, but for our religious sources i thaut u always argued that the quran is fully detailed, well u guys are getting me confused, i know the bible and i read it many times, i prefer the quran for now, but if it(s gonna be the bible who give me the details or completes the quran, than i will say with no hesitation, bye bye quran, bye bye islam, but i will not go back to christianity, for i know enagh of it, i just say maybe god is fooling around with us, or maybe it's not god after all who said a book fully detailed, i better ignore all books, live my life, do what i see is goof for me and there will be no hearafter after all,
Since i started reading and understanding the quran, i start to realise that probaby there's no god after all, just the flow of nature driving us to the future, never backward, we can't create something for us to be immortals so we invebted religions to make us feel like we'll be eternal after we die, lol , if the quran isn't fully detailed as it says, than i will never believe in any other book, maybe it's all philosopy, ciao -
Phew......good to hear that I was not totally off-beat....in my social circles there are some people who would hang me from the nearest tree just for mentioning islam, christianity and judaism in the same sentence.
I think I will go deeper into this and just like you guys, perhaps discuss more with christians/jews instead of mainstream muslims, I find it quite frustrating sometimes that we (QA versus Mainstream) cannot agree on the extent of our beloved prophet Muhammed's role.
BTW, a friend of mine asked (when he found out I call myself muslim) "So, you stick your ass in the air five times a day now?" I laughed until I cried....I never, as my friend so very exquisitively put it, stick my ass in the air. I try to keep the bond, the salaat, with Allah 24/7. I try to remember him everything I do, how I interact with people, how I treat my loved ones, etc.
However, I feel it is important to agree on two, three or five prayers because if we can agree, then we can start to focus on more important issues, I am a little frustrated that we have to argue about the little things.....Sorry, no offence meant by saying praying is a little thing.salam emil
although i understand what you're saying I think I partly disagree about salat. for one thing, not many here agree on what it IS never mind how many times ;D like you I try to keep the bond with Allah 24/7, I speak to Him all the time, He is in my mind all the time. I don't think having, or trying to have an agreed number of salat is important as we are all at different stages in our search for truth. I think salat is something between the individual and Allah as we could really go round in circles trying to reach an agreement on how many as well as what it is. -
at first you guys said study the quran alone as a source for relation between us and god, and ignore the hadith that came later 300 years, now it's time to go back 600 years for the new testament looking for our religious stuff after the corruption of the bibile, and back to the old testament after 1000 years of corruption and misinterpretation, well i believe we can learn everything, even budhism and hinduism for our cultural growth, but for our religious sources i thaut u always argued that the quran is fully detailed, well u guys are getting me confused, i know the bible and i read it many times, i prefer the quran for now, but if it(s gonna be the bible who give me the details or completes the quran, than i will say with no hesitation, bye bye quran, bye bye islam, but i will not go back to christianity, for i know enagh of it, i just say maybe god is fooling around with us, or maybe it's not god after all who said a book fully detailed, i better ignore all books, live my life, do what i see is goof for me and there will be no hearafter after all,
Since i started reading and understanding the quran, i start to realise that probaby there's no god after all, just the flow of nature driving us to the future, never backward, we can't create something for us to be immortals so we invebted religions to make us feel like we'll be eternal after we die, lol , if the quran isn't fully detailed as it says, than i will never believe in any other book, maybe it's all philosopy, ciaoI don't think anyone is saying the quran is not fully detailed but in Quran Allah also said He sent those other books before it. I don't agree that they are corrupted in themselves so much as what has been added to them, like the Torah is ONLY the first 5 books of the OT and the rest is additions. This is why I said about being careful with the Bible, meaning the NT, as there is not really anything to point to which of that is the Injeel itself and possibly that was part of what was taken out in 325ad.
As you know the Bible then I am sure you will agree that the main points are to worship one God and not take partners with Him, to love your fellow man and to do righteous deeds, this is the same in Quran. The differences are that Torah was given to the hebrew nation, so was the Injeel, the Quran was given to complete that message and to make it for all mankind.
Certainly from reading the books of Moses we can see the stories that are in Quran clearer, IF we needed to that is, but I personally think that if Allah is saying that He sent those books then it is our duty to see what they actually say. This is not the same as following hadith in any way at all as Allah has said He sent those books and those prophets anyway, Islam can really be seen as the evolution or the completion of the whole thing, so looking at what went before and seeing what they did wrong is a good thing and shows that if we are not careful we will continue to do the same as the Jews and Christians did and follow wrongly.
I feel that where Allah references in Quran to tell us about the past prophets and their people is to serve as a warning, it does say it is a warning, Muhammed was to warn us about what we were doing wrong and the past stories are examples for us. It is no good having an example if we don't look at it.
Many muslims wont even read the Torah or the Bible because they are convinced that it has been corrupted, but Allah makes it clear what has been the corruption as far as I can see and that is by adding oral hadith, called the oral Torah, to the actual books of Moses.
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at first you guys said study the quran alone as a source for relation between us and god, and ignore the hadith that came later 300 years, now it's time to go back 600 years for the new testament looking for our religious stuff after the corruption of the bibile, and back to the old testament after 1000 years of corruption and misinterpretation, well i believe we can learn everything, even budhism and hinduism for our cultural growth, but for our religious sources i thaut u always argued that the quran is fully detailed, well u guys are getting me confused, i know the bible and i read it many times, i prefer the quran for now, but if it(s gonna be the bible who give me the details or completes the quran, than i will say with no hesitation, bye bye quran, bye bye islam, but i will not go back to christianity, for i know enagh of it, i just say maybe god is fooling around with us, or maybe it's not god after all who said a book fully detailed, i better ignore all books, live my life, do what i see is goof for me and there will be no hearafter after all,
Since i started reading and understanding the quran, i start to realise that probaby there's no god after all, just the flow of nature driving us to the future, never backward, we can't create something for us to be immortals so we invebted religions to make us feel like we'll be eternal after we die, lol , if the quran isn't fully detailed as it says, than i will never believe in any other book, maybe it's all philosopy, ciaoi dont think we NEED to understand those books in order to be guided....not at all..but i do think that fr the interested reader, it wud be worth the while to look into all 3 religions..i personally like reading the bible and the quran...and try to recognise the similiarities between them..my ultimate reference is only the Quran..i have yet to find a book that matches it in its wisdom...sometimes i feel like the bible talks to evryone like a father tries to talk to a 2 yr old kid..simplifying God into someone tht can be imagined etc..but now i just try to find the quran in it i guess...coz Gods main message never changes..some rules/practices may be changed according to wat time the guidance ws sent down..but the main idea of obeying God alone persists throughout..outrightly refusing truth in the bible wud be wrong too..we just need to dig a little deeper if we wish to find out more..its more a curiosity thing than a necessity..although the world wud be a much better place if we all just accepted each other.
one question.. how did u realise frm the quran that theres no God?
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i agree if u want to read the bible for your knowlege; read between lines, i know that the 5 books been written bt 4 different people, but i don't believe that it is the word of god except a few verses, even moses can't write about when he died and where he was buried, i see the creation in genesis as the same story as the hadith, i see the circumsision of abraham is sthe same as the hadith, i can read that god put his hand on moses face and moses only saw the back of god, i can read that jacob had a big fight with god and god used his power to win against jacob, " he cheated' , and in other verse it says it was an angel, after that jacob was named israel, i can read that ishmael was a bastard and that abraham kicked his cuncubine with her son out to the desert, god only knows where 'beersheba'
if u read between lines , maybe, but taking it as a block like that, the quran forbade u , remember the verse that all quranists like to use against sunnis? wich narration after this will u follow , the verse was something like that
the reason i'm saying this so you don't fall like many guys here when they started their philosophu about the QUIBLA, they kept saying that the quibla was south of jerusalem in the desert, so they agreed it was north of medina, so all sunnis and shi'ia were wrong and they figured it out without even understanding what beersheba means,
i give u an example, beersheba beer means a well and sheba means sheba, a country around yemen, never occured to them that it is more truth or closer if it was the well of zamzam wich is in sheeba area, in arabic saba , well, read the torah but never take it as truth, u can get mislead by the wicked people who did to the torah the same as hadith did to islam , ciao -
response to your question, if i find the quran not fully detailes, than i will believe it's not from god, and i will doubt god, for now i revised myself and i feel it's detailes in guidance, i don't feel the quran is a religious book, but a general book, i don't believe in religion anymore, there's no religion, it is all man made, i believe a true muslim is like that atheist who's a good guy and rightous , the only difference is that the muslim believe in god; no religion period, there's allah, his book and that's it, i don't believe in any rituel, if allah want me to put my face on the floor to test my pride, no problem i'll do it, that's the point that i see praying salat id for, not really a rituel but self discipline, like fasting ramadan, so i don't believe in rituels in the way they say it is, it's kind of meditation that's it for now, if u want to discuss the bible, i'm here, i use to enjoy reading it than i started to enjoy critics of the bible, i tried to critic the quran but so far i didn't succed, there's always been a convincing response to me except one , the virgin birth of jesus lol , i believe in it because i read it n the bible and in the quran, that's it
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33 He sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between his hands; and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
541-50!
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
545 And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
547 And let the people of the Gospel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
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But to us it been sent down the quran, and i believe we cannot juge except by it, torah or gospel or any other book is out, we are the generation of the quran and not the gospel or torah, allah did not send us the torah but to them, he didn't send us the gospel but to them, he did indeed send us the quran, we are all generation of mohamed, if u say otherwise, go for another book than and see if u find guidance
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But to us it been sent down the quran, and i believe we cannot juge except by it, torah or gospel or any other book is out, we are the generation of the quran and not the gospel or torah, allah did not send us the torah but to them, he didn't send us the gospel but to them, he did indeed send us the quran, we are all generation of mohamed, if u say otherwise, go for another book than and see if u find guidance
So Allah has made us different and divided us into three, is that what you are saying? us and them? Or do you mean that the Quran is God's word version 1.3?
salam emil
although i understand what you're saying I think I partly disagree about salat. for one thing, not many here agree on what it IS never mind how many times ;D like you I try to keep the bond with Allah 24/7, I speak to Him all the time, He is in my mind all the time. I don't think having, or trying to have an agreed number of salat is important as we are all at different stages in our search for truth. I think salat is something between the individual and Allah as we could really go round in circles trying to reach an agreement on how many as well as what it is.Hi Ayisha
I agree with you, none of us are ever going to agree fully to how and in what way, we are all from different cultures and countries and backgrounds. I believe firmly that the "ritual" of prayer is up to the individual himself. If standing on top of a mountain screaming your prayers, you should do that if it makes you feel you are bonding with God. If you want to do the raakas and the bowing and all that, then fine, do that. Do whatever it takes to get yourself connected. I also, like you, personally feel that it is not so important with an agreed number of salaat.
However, it would still be nice to once and for all settle the number of prayers so we can move on to other issues. For many people it seems it is very important to establish a norm and all think their number of prayers is the correct one. Also, I am concerned about the "general masses", people who are not so interested in reading but still believe in God, all the people out there who are not posting on the f-m forum, those who don't have internet, you know what I mean..... If one of them were to ask how many times to pray a day and the response is "that's kinda up to you..." well, I am not sure their interest in learning more about the QA concept will exactly increase....
It is a fine line between order and chaos, and at the moment I feel QA is not for the masses because it is on the wrong side of that line. We cannot present ourselves to the masses without the risk of a lot of backs turning towards us, not because we are "unbelievers" but because we are way too "out there"...... I sound like some kind of preacher now, don't mean to...But like I stated before, I see a lot of people (read immigrants), especially women, in my society who are stuck in a religious system that is not compatible with the society at large. They feel like outsiders, they want to break free from the schackles of Sharia but don't want to reject Islam. They want to be our neighbours, they want to have the freedom that reigns in their new country, but they just don't know how to without being punished by Allah...They are low educated, no jobs, and if they are women, prisoners in their own homes. These are the people who I would like to say "look at this, you can be part of society AND keep your faith in Islam." -
But to us it been sent down the quran, and i believe we cannot juge except by it, torah or gospel or any other book is out, we are the generation of the quran and not the gospel or torah, allah did not send us the torah but to them, he didn't send us the gospel but to them, he did indeed send us the quran, we are all generation of mohamed, if u say otherwise, go for another book than and see if u find guidance
Peace,
Respect.Ponder over the verses I quoted earlier.
They got their Books, yes.
Then the whole of mankind got The Book.
This Book - The Qur'an - now confirms the previous Scriptures, yes?
33.Ponder.
God bless ya.Peace.
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I like you way you preach, but one thing i don't understand, is confirming other books, what does it mean?
- ressemblace in names and events?
- same law ?
- confirming them as if they were the actual word of god?
- or confirming meaning cleaning out noha, abraham, bastard Ishmael , isaak, jacob who fight allah or the angel , business man Joseph, adulter David and his bastard solomon, Sinner Adam and his wicked evil wide ? incest of lot with his 2 daughters ? myth of zodiac worship (samson and dalilah) , accursed death of jesus ? jesus son of allah ? allah is only for israel ? judas incest with his don's wife ? give strong drink to the poor so they forget their misery ? i can go on and on , there are hundereds like these, so what does the quran confirm? i believe if confirms what inside the quran, the rest, it doesn't matter for we don't need it at's
- as for looking for the times of prayer , what's the difference between stand for prayer (aquim salat) and glorify to your lord ? ( thsubhan allah) , if stand up for prayer mean stand up than bow and prostrate , than 3times are crystal clear in the quran, the problem is the verses that say glory to allah , most people who suuports 5 prayer they say it means pray , that's my level of thinking, i take the quran litteral meaning and also metaphor meaning, both ways the quran is correct, so u right, u can go up to a mountan and scream your prayer, after all , it's al the same, in your heart you pray and love the one who is pulling the string all over the universe and beyond
- But, when i realised that aisha or fatima , maybe they have never existed, and when i saw the name samuel in the bible wich is also shamuel and realised it's ishmael distorted , i realise that maybe sarah and hagar and some other names probably never existed, when u learn about jesus, who is called also yesus , and yeshu (hebrew) , ans isha (arameic) and the son of isaak i guess, essau who is also isha in arameic, well i realised that a lot of twisting happened in the bible, that's the only reason i said following it might lead u ashtray, specially it is said in the quran, well, i didn't mean to tell you it's wrong to read it , but it might get u doubt in your heart, remember what happened to the people of hadith, when they started reding the bible, they get me circumsised i need my piece of flesh back but it's too late, hahahaha u see what the bible did for me? salam brothers and sisters,
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Dear Loxbox
First let me tell you that I don't know so much about judaism and I only read the bible when I was a kid, don't remember much.
I believe there are a lot of connections hidden from us. There are many signs and messages that we do not see, simply because we are looking down instead of around. I believe the prophets were not sent to us by God, but rather the prophets seeing the message as it was intended and thus being able to reach out and touch God. Maybe the prophets themselves didn't realize that it was THEM who gave this "power" to themselves, maybe they thought God had given it to them.
Rashad Kahlifa said that we are temporary Gods or something similar (NO, I am not a 19ist). I think he did have a small point. If we were able to see the one message and the one true god we would, in fact, become part of God, we would become one with Him.If one was to recognise the (and I am not talking about man-made and corrupted parts) holy scriptures as the message of God, wouldn't alot of questions find their answers? Wouldn't we be able to differentiate between what is cult, rituals, customs and the message of God? Wouldn't the religious hatred between men not be recognised as what it really is, hatred towards difference in race, culture and traditions?
I don't know.....the more I think about it, the more confused I get....probably because I don't know 2cents about the bible and torah. Must study.