A personal view regarding salat
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Salam all
Don't have too much time. It's getting late and I need my beauty sleep
Just thought I would quickly respond to some of the questions on here.
Have you read and studied every occurrence of "salat" in The Quran?
Probably not all (I'm getting there). However enough for me to know that the different variations can have different meanings which can depend in what context the word ''Salat'' is used in.
Have you read the compilation links thread on salat?
I've read the majority of the links and probably a lot of others too. Ive been a reader of this site for a few years. I have seen some compelling views and articles especially with the whole issue of salat. I'm trying not to sound stubborn or flippant. I'm still in the mindset that salat generally means prayer and maybe I just need to do more research. But with all the readings I have done over the last few years on here and other sites I think for now I'm still going with this view point.
So you conclude that because all of these translations (and many more, as you said) advocate bowing and prostrating to random directions on this round Earth of ours, this is really to be done and what God wants us to do? If so, please read through this http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Believe me if you knew me on a personal level you would know that I am not one to just follow with the masses. All I was trying to point out is that there does seem to be a general consensus regarding the translation of that specific verse and through my own understanding of arabic (not great but gets me by) I would translate it myself in a similar way.
You could post 2,000 translations of the Quran, and I still wouldn't believe you Grin
You could post 2000 articles explaining why there are only two times to pray and why salat does not always mean prayer but I still wouldn't believe you ;D
So you just go ahead and believe the norm/the masses?
Again let me state that I don't just follow the masses. Im not one who straight away believe mainstream news and views. I don't follow trends. I know that sometimes you need to read between the lines (ok going off the point). But all I was trying to say was this is my understanding of the word salah.
6116 If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
2170 If they are told, "Follow what God has sent down," they say, "No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!" What if their fathers did not reason much and were not guided?
I don't obey the majority. If I did I would probably still be following mainstream Islam and following hadiths which is the main form of conjecture which has badly effected our religion today. Also if I did follow the majority I would probably just listen to the views of two times salat and just follow that. From the readings on the post it does seem like a majority view but I could be wrong. My views are based on my own reading and current level of understanding.
So you are not humble and submit/be obedient to God when you do not perform the "salat"/bond? Even if it meant prayer, would you still only be humble and submissive/obedient towards God during prayer? These are some questions to be asking yourself.
Of course I am obedient to god when I do not pray. As best as I can be. All I was asking was in what other aspect is bowing down and prostrating done other than prayer? Because I dont know any. Maybe you could shed some light on that? Or someone else can. After all I came here to learn more about the true way of submission to one god.
Like I said, my studies are not finished, and I don't think any one's studies on this forum are 100% finished on this topic.
My studies are not finished not by a long shot. So far my studies have lead me to believe in 3 times a day to pray. Yours have lead you to two. Maybe mine will lead me there eventually maybe not. But is it really a big problem if I did pray three prayers and god asks me for only 2? or is it a big problem if I pray only 2 but god wanted 3 times? I personally don't think so and this is what I was trying to get at.
Peace,
and the best of luck with your studies (if you intend to carry some out).When it comes to my faith Im always studying when I can. Not just with prayers but the religion as a whole. Like verse 2170 says we shouldn't just follow what our fathers follow. we have to question everything and read and learn as much as we can.
On a side note there seemed to be some issue between Wakas and Truthseeker. Hope it does not get personal.
Peace all. Hope to have many more debates in the future and not just about salah which I think some members are probably getting bored with O0
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peace t171,
When I make a post on the forum, it is almost always as a member. When it is as a moderator it is obvious as I'd refer to forum rules or possible infractions or some admin aspect perhaps etc. The fact that you use the word "appearance" suggests it is not obvious to you, thus it is an assumption on your part to think it was a moderator post.
Anyways, thanks for the advice.
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Peace yesuri,
Believe me if you knew me on a personal level you would know that I am not one to just follow with the masses.
That does not change the fact that you committed an appeal to popularity fallacy.
You could post 2000 articles explaining why there are only two times to pray and why salat does not always mean prayer but I still wouldn't believe you ;D
Too bad that I don't think one is supposed to "pray" twice a day D
Of course I am obedient to god when I do not pray. As best as I can be. All I was asking was in what other aspect is bowing down and prostrating done other than prayer? Because I dont know any. Maybe you could shed some light on that? Or someone else can. After all I came here to learn more about the true way of submission to one god.
You missed my point. "Sujud" does not mean "prostration" and "rka" does not mean "bow".
sujud = obedience/submission
ruku = humblenessFirst of all, "salat" is not mentioned in the verse that I quoted. However, you assumed that it is linked to (only) "salat".
Check the compilations of links thread for "rka/sjd" threads.My studies are not finished not by a long shot. So far my studies have lead me to believe in 3 times a day to pray. Yours have lead you to two. Maybe mine will lead me there eventually maybe not.
Really? Please read my posts properly.
I hope you read through the threads on "salat" without preconceptions. I suggest you forget/block out everything that you have thought "salat" was or else you will not fully understand it. This happened to me until I left the preconceptions behind me.
Peace )
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You missed my point. "Sujud" does not mean "prostration" and "rka" does not mean "bow".
sujud = obedience/submission
ruku = humblenessThe red highlighting above is from me.
Dear progressive 1993,
Could you please explain the meanings of the verses 4101,102, and 103, below? Please elaborate on the particular circumstance, which necessitated the revelation of those verses?
Peace,
Khalil( ( (
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Reading through the forum now and looking back to when I joined, I find it interesting/funny how caught up people, especially new members get with the issue of salat - it seems to be the biggest debate among those who follow "quran alone". It's not necessarily a bad thing since you should investigate and find out concepts of The Quran, but it seems like a lot of people mainly like to philosophize about it. I remember me trying to get hold of the salat issue - took a while, prob. still haven't gotten it all (salat isn't just about praying or the like).
Most people, when coming into this forum assume that "salat" = prayer, which is not the case.
I would like you to look at these verses3343 He (God) is the One who yusallee unto you, along with His forces/"angels" ("malaikatahu", to lead you out of darkness into the light. He is ever Compassionate towards those who trust/believe/acknowledge.
Especially chapter 107 is interesting
1071 Do you notice who rejects the system/obligation?
1072 It is the one who mistreats the orphan
1073 And does not encourage the feeding of the poor.
1074 So woe to the musalleena (those who "slw"
1075 Who are totally heedless of their "salat"
1076 They only want to be seen,
1077 They hinder sustenanceAlso look at these
2155 We will test you with some fear and hunger, and a shortage in money and lives and fruits. Give good news to those who are patient.
2156 The ones who, when afflicted with adversity, say, "We are to God and to Him we will return."
2157 To these will be "salawat" from their Lord and compassion/embrace. They are the guided/enlightened ones.This is related to the following
9103 , take from their money a charity to purify them and improve them with it, and "salli" unto them. Your "salat" is tranquility for them, and God is Hearer, Knower.
It becomes clear that "slw" does not mean "prayer" in these verses. "Slw" is compared to embracing, bonding, etc.
It is also compared to helping and supporting people, charity, sustenance, etc.Peace progressiv1993
I agree with your view about salat. My views about Salat are similar to yours.
What is salat?
Salat is to accept (bow down) to all the laws of quran. To do right, stop wrong and be heedful of the limits (9112).
Salat is to follow the laws of quran (which is called wa-yuqimimunas salat in arabic).
Salat is the purpose of life for all creatures, their mission, the method to do their tasks (2431).
Salat is a bond of peace (9.5, 910-12).
Salat is a political system which should be established along with Zakat by those with authority (2241).
Salat is a socioeconomical system (1187).
Salat is reading the book, reading the quran (4101, 692, 2045, 7170).
Salat is reading the quran 2 times a day (11114, 177.
Salat is a quranic system which should be established through the words of Allah (423.
Salat is a bond which prohibits evil and vice (2945).
Salat is related to self-betterment/contribution (2.43, 210, 2153, 2177).
Salat is related to mutual consultations in the affairs of people (423.
Salat is related to charities and helping people (23, 2177, 1322, 1431).
Salat is supporting the poor and needy (1071-7)
Salat is something something which the later generations put aside and istead followed their own desires (1959)
Salat is something the hypocrites do lazily and to show people, they do not want to do it (4142)
Salat is something which some people take as fun and games, they do not observe it how it should be obseverved (55
Salat is something which the ingrates did not follow, so they did not get paradise (741-47).I recommend this article
http//www.aboutquran.com/Islam.htm
If you have spare time, you may wish to read a book written by G.A Parwez by the name "Islam A challenge to religion". In my opinion it is a great book. It takes some effort to read it, but it is truly worth it. By the way, the article i recommended above, is inspired by the book.
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Peace, and welcome to the forum.
You should read the following articles, which are about the concept of "salat"
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11539.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0As for the timing, the Quran asks the believers (mumineen) to perform the "salat" 2 times per day - at dawn and at sunset.
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salat withtime means quanic education and training class(26/219 and your movement among those who fall compeletly obedient means followers) morning and evening time,only two salat in one day,17/78,11/114,20/130,20/130,33/40,25/5,7/205,6/52,etc...
salat means deen 19/59,19/60 also see these verses
salat means deen allah order Aqemudeen in 42/13 to these prophets and same prophets in verses 21/72,21/73---20/12,20/13 and19/30,19/31 allah order them salat so
AqemuDeen= aqemuSalat see verses 22/41 also 11/87 follow allah laws is salat means quran
salat means allah laws means waahe see verse 33/56,33/42 and the book bring us dark to light 35/31. in these verses(33/56+42 and35/31) is clear that quran is salat as well.To get understandind training (education)of quran in special time is salat Asal and salat Ish ,to act accounding to that education(quran) means to follow allah laws is Abadat(not worship or pray) and to establish allah laws in the socity need own land and government (22/41+24/55) is called estabish salat and zhaaka means Aqeemudeen(islami system).
Raka is define in verses 77/40+41+42+43+44+45+46+47+48meansmove from badtrack to goodtrack(laws of allah7/3) to giveup forfather track and follow only book of allah 2/170,5/104,10/78,11/62
Sajaada
compeletly accepted quran and follow only allah laws orders 84/20+21+25 etc.....obedient,fully committed(16/48,22/18,16/49,2/116 etc......)my eglish is not good but i try my best.
perfoming rakat salat is frud cheating sharp practices and artificial(made by a man) in islam before mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) (4/142+8/35) and after death mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) arround ioo years later the salat meaning changed again in the form of namaaz(rahat salat) 29/45 -
Peace Progressive
I, to my own surprise am starting to thing that the 2 salat theory is correct. HOWEVER, there is definitely a noon congregational prayer on Fridays (day of congregation - yam al juma).
Too bad that I don't think one is supposed to "pray" twice a day
The first one is a quote I have taken off you from another thread. The second one is what you responded to me after I stated you follow a two prayer system. Maybe you later changed your view and now you don't believe people need to pray twice a day or believe salat means prayer. So apologies if I missed that. Just wanted to show where I got the view that you follow a two prayer view.
One thing I would like to ask though. If people dont believe Salat means prayer, so do you therefore not pray at all?
I know that the prayers of today seem ritualised which is why I have changed the way I pray by shortening it and only saying verses which praise Allah and that I understand. After all my understanding from verse 443 is that we should not approach prayers until we know what we are saying.
Im just curious as to what others do.
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Peace yesuri,
The first one is a quote I have taken off you from another thread. The second one is what you responded to me after I stated you follow a two prayer system. Maybe you later changed your view and now you don't believe people need to pray twice a day or believe salat means prayer. So apologies if I missed that. Just wanted to show where I got the view that you follow a two prayer view.
I see. Yes, I have changed my view. I have stated though in this thread that "salat" is not "prayer" - a good look on your side, though D In fact, I have changed many of my many views on topics in The Quran over the time which I have been a member on this forum.
One thing I would like to ask though. If people dont believe Salat means prayer, so do you therefore not pray at all?
My view is that "salat" means "bond", "embrace" "act of following closely", etc. and that the timed salat which the believers are to maintain/carry out is to be done through means of reading The Quran/following God's laws/remembering God. My view is similar to what is presented in the first link that I have posted in this thread.
Peace
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"salat" is actually quite an obvious thing in The Quran, but it is our pre-conceived notions that get in the way. One of my favourite examples of this is the following
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601228.msg259718#msg259718If you show anyone but a Muslim this verse, they will never say salat means prayer, and if they are observant, they will reason that salat is being contrasted to taking an idle narration that misleads. Now, ask them what could salat be?
Their answer might just be something quite remarkable... ) Enjoy.
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I belive it only one salat but two time a day,i ask you that what we shoud do in salat fajar and salat isha accounding to quran?
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Could you please explain the meanings of the verses 4101,102, and 103, below? Please elaborate on the particular circumstance, which necessitated the revelation of those verses?
( ( (
The "sujud" above is the same as acknowledging that they heard and obeyed.
Now if you interpret "sujud" as physical prostration then is this how you do your physical prostration?
Peace,
Ayman
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salat two tome a day but it is not pray but only quranic education training etc class.
Salaam miah. I am convinced that the salaat in 4102 can not be any education let alone quranic education because it is performed on the active war front, which is where the believers who perform it are warned by God to be on the alert and take precaution
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them... - .
Being on the active front during a war is like being on a raft afloat the rising waves during a flood. It is in no way a place where you can take education. It is a place where you give your dear life if you do not concentrate and if you get involved in things like education to weaken your concentration.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
They are performing a ritual consisting of 1 (م kiyaam + 1 (د sajdah in order to submit themselves to God for His mercy and moral help in combat.
What means here can be seen in verse 103 .
As for the question whether is physical or verbal we have to take into account that it follows , which is physical for sure, and both are part of an activity of submission to God; and that activity is named salaat in verse 102. When one is physical there is no reason why the other will not be physical.
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Peace Hassan
You wrote
Salaam miah. I am convinced that the salaat in 4102 can not be any education let alone quranic education because it is performed on the active war front, which is where the believers who perform it are warned by God to be on the alert and take precaution
When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them... - .
Being on the active front during a war is like being on a raft afloat the rising waves during a flood. It is in no way a place where you can take education. It is a place where you give your dear life if you do not concentrate and if you get involved in things like education to weaken your concentration.
While your assertion that it does not mean Quranic education may be correct, your reasons against this weaken your argument for ritual prayer.
Consider an army of ten thousand. If the rasool were to per form the ritual prayer with them in two sessions, this would be the ideal time for the enemy to attack even with half on guard. If he were to lead them in more than two sessions, the time required to perform these rituals could become astronomical. This is without even taking into account the time needed to remove & put on their armour. The ritual in this instance would be extremely impractical.
It would make more sense that the salat here be in the form of briefings regarding strategy with special care being taken that the Quranic etiquette regarding war, prisoners, etc. are being observed.
Although my study on salat is incomplete, I would ask that you look at the verses where salat appears, then go back in the text to the start of the theme and forward to the end of the theme. When I did this a common thread developed which indicates that the salat is an event that is used for the purpose of ensuring that the pure message is used as a measuring stick for our daily life decisions both on an individual as well as a community level. The common thread is that in many cases a departure from or hiding of the truth is mentioned. Salat is used to keep this kind of thing in check. This is especially true when autonomous communities are formed that accept the message. Before such a community has authority, they are a revolutionary movement. Once they have authority, they tend to become just another government. This is why there are verses that exhort the reader to establish the salat if given authority in the land.
Anyway, my study is not complete & I will post in more detail once I'm ready.
Imraan
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Salaam Imraan.
One of the reasons why I am convinced that mentioned in 4102 is a ritual because it starts with the believers doing in it and ends after they prostrate (ا
"When thou (O Messenger) art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. - .
You needn't carry out your briefings regarding strategy BY MEANS OF AND .
Another reason is that this ritual is timed (ا as is explained in verse 103 whereas your so-called briefings regarding war strategy (or actually battle tactics here) are never timed; you give your briefings whenever need be.
Plus, God's truth is that mentioned in 4101-103 cannot be brefings on battle tactics because if you fail to give them to your soldiers to the extent that they understand the fulfillment of the tactics is a matter of life or death for themselves, you lose the battle, which was the case in the battle of Uhud. However, in verse 101 God says that you are entititled to do without ; that is, the so-called briefings if you are expecting an enemy attack
"When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye fall short of your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers May attack you - .
God will never advise you to do without the briefings on battle tactics; otherwise, He will be advising you to lose the battle.
As for the assertion that an army of ten thousand believers cannot perform the prayer in two sessions, that is contrary to the fact. During the Battle of the Dardanelles probably more than five thousand Turkish soldiers performed their prayer all together in one session, probably with the unit heads repeating loudly the imam's words so that they will be heard by all the soldiers who participated. Here is a photo that depicts it
http//img231.imageshack.us/img231/5715/anakkale9kf1rt.jpg
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
salat withtime means quanic education and training class(26/219 and your movement among those who fall compeletly obedient means followers) morning and evening time,only two salat in one day,17/78,11/114,20/130,20/130,33/40,25/5,7/205,6/52,etc...
salat means deen 19/59,19/60 also see these verses
salat means deen allah order aqemudeen in 42/13 to these prophets and same prophets in these verses 21/72,21/73---20/12,20/13 and19/30,19/31 so
deen=salat see verses 22/41 also 11/87 follow allah laws is salat means quran
salat means allah laws means waahe see verse 33/56,33/42 and the book bring us dark to light 35/31. in these verses(33/56+42 and35/31) is clear that quran is salat as well.
To get understandind training (education)of quran in special time is salat Asal and salat Ish ,to act accounding to that education(quran) means to follow allah laws is Abadat(not worship or pray) and to establish allah laws in the socity need own land and government (22/41+24/55) is called estabish salat and zhaaka means Aqeemudeen(islami system).
Raka is define in verses 77/40+41+42+43+44+45+46+47+48meansmove from badtrack to goodtrack(laws of allah7/3) to giveup forfather track and follow only book of allah 2/170,5/104,10/78,11/62
Sajaada
compeletly accepted quran and follow only allah laws orders 84/20+21+25 etc.....obedient,fully committed(16/48,22/18,16/49,2/116 etc......)my eglish is not good but i try my best.
perfoming rakat salat is frud cheating sharp practices and artificial(made by a man) in islam before mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) (4/142+8/35) and after death mohammad(sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) arround ioo years later the salat meaning changed again in the form of namaaz(rahat salat) 29/45 -
Peace all,
my view
985
And they have been commanded no more than this to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish SALAT; and to practise ZAKAT; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
ZAKAT is a continuous process of self development for betterment.
This formule is well known and I think is the key to understand SALAT.
My view is you cannot "Atoo zakat" reach the state of "continuous process of self development for betterment" if you do not "aqimoo SALAT" = self study and follows the words of GOD!
ZAKAT is the goal , SALAT is the means.
PEACE
