Does God know whole of the future of the individual
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Pre-Cognisant Omnipotence = No Free Will Accountability.
Plain and simple.
If Allah, Subhanu Wa Ta'Ala, knows what we will do before we do it..then what is the point indeed. It becomes a robotic universe.
To me, and my limited understanding, it makes a whole lot more sense if Allah gave us the capacity to act for the good or the bad. It makes the universe infinitely more interesting and beautiful. In this scenario, Allah is all powerful. Which means, he can intervene directly in human affairs so that his will is done. Someone could choose to do something that is contrary to his will, but he intervenes and that person is not permitted to achieve their ends. He is omnipotent, which means to me, he has eyes and ears everywhere that do not fail in reporting.
Just my two cents.
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Putting an = sign does not make it equal.
If God intervenes, which He would have to repeatedly do if He did not know what was going to happen, would mean no fixed structure/scale to work within thus determining one's good/bad would be difficult. Of course, you could say "but God is Just, if he changes the scale, He would do it in a fair way". Seems odd conceptually.
It would be interested if any Quranic argument could be made. I haven't seen any.
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Peace
Wakas wrote
I can only assume that those who think God does not know which option we will choose is that He reveals scripture to certain people and He had no idea if they were going to say "nah, not really my thing God, make someone else a messenger" or if they would be killed next week! Probability suggests that this would have happened, i.e. there were other messengers but they got killed half way through their mission and God said "oops, never saw that coming, oh well, I will try another".
This is of course absurd.
Why is this absurd? I don't know. Is there Quranic evidence that supports this position.
I don't recall the verse now, but isn't there a verse that says something about what would happen if a messenger does not carry out his duty as he should?
Imraan
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Peace
you gunna eat that wrote
Peace,
In the example, the participant is ignorant of the fact that he was no other possibilities; we humans are too.
Peace
I'm not sure what difference this makes. In the end result, there is no reality to any apparent freedom in making the decision due to what is effectively pre-determination of decision. It is pre-determined because no other choice can be made.
Imraan
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Putting an = sign does not make it equal.
If God intervenes, which He would have to repeatedly do if He did not know what was going to happen, would mean no fixed structure/scale to work within thus determining one's good/bad would be difficult. Of course, you could say "but God is Just, if he changes the scale, He would do it in a fair way". Seems odd conceptually.
It would be interested if any Quranic argument could be made. I haven't seen any.
Peace,
Respect.Remember the story of the guys in the cave?
1826 Say God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of the heavens and the earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally, and He does not share in His judgment with anyone.
Peace.
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Salamun alaikum,
I think it's important to remember that we can never know or understand Allah truly apart from what He tells us through His revelations. A little bit like a magical self-aware bacterium being aware of the nature of a human.
If it is assumed that we live in a holographic universe and all the information in that universe (past, present and future) is encoded on the edge of that universe, then it is conceivable that a sufficiently advanced being outside the universe could 'read' the encoded information. Again, having foreknowledge of what will happen does not mean that the being who knew the outcome was CAUSING the outcome.
Another thing I used to imagine is that every single choice, every single grain of sand and position of the smallest atom is known to Allah. Having knowledge of all the information in the universe at all points is again stating that He would know the ultimate outcome and all the choices we make, but the choices that are made are all OURS and our responsibility.
I hope that makes some sense...!
d -
i think sometimes people don't really differentiate between 'free will' and 'unlimited will',
some people think having free will means they can do literally anything, but that's wrong, we are free to act however we like but in a limited world. a person in prison also has free will, only that it's even more limited for that person.so God knowing our decisions doesn't mean we have no free will, has nothing to do with that, only that He is the best calculator ever...
even we simple limited humans already built similar things, in internet for example, if you type a few letters in google search it already finishes the word or sentence... and since God is more advanced then our inventions, He knows even better what we'll do or say...sometimes even humans can know to some point what others will do, if you know someone long enough and spend a lot of time with them, you know what they'll do (of course it may change depending on circumstances and environment) but since God knows each one even better and knows all the circumstances and all possibilities He knows what will happen, which road we'll take... doesn't mean He made us do that or drove us to that decision, although He can, perhaps offers us through reasoning which is better
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Peace to all of you.
This is often claimed, but it is very clear that God is in no need of anyone or anything. This life is not for God, this life is for us, it is our self-testimony. This life is a test and all our actions are our exam paper, and we hand it in, willingly or unwillingly, when its over.
Let's say you have a teacher, and he knows his students very well, why not at the end of the course pass and fail them according to what he thinks? Of course, students would cry out this is unfair, so what would the students demand? Something that allows them to prove themselves, to determine their ability, a test! Hence why we're here.
We accepted the amana/trust
http//free-minds.org/thetrust.I completely agree with you there Wakas. To me it seems reasonable to assume that the purpose of us being here is to bring out the truth in us in a way which we have had a personal impact on its outcome and experienced all our decisions and actions, so that when we face our creator we will be questioned on all our desicions and actions and be judged by those with perfect justice.
Imagine instead one day you wake up in hell in pain and suffering, and you ask of God "why am i here, what have i done?". Would it seem reasonable that you got an answer going something in the way of "i know youd be a sinner anyway, so theres no need to go through all the trouble with comitting you to the first life before you end up here."Also the Quran in its entirety unmistakably and repeatedly teaches us of the omnipotence of God ALMIGHTY, there is nothing that he is not capable of and im sure he is capable of things way beyond anything we could ever imagine.
God knows best, may he guide us all who seek his guidance.
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Pre-Cognisant Omnipotence = No Free Will Accountability.
Plain and simple.
If Allah, Subhanu Wa Ta'Ala, knows what we will do before we do it..then what is the point indeed. It becomes a robotic universe.
To me, and my limited understanding, it makes a whole lot more sense if Allah gave us the capacity to act for the good or the bad. It makes the universe infinitely more interesting and beautiful. In this scenario, Allah is all powerful. Which means, he can intervene directly in human affairs so that his will is done. Someone could choose to do something that is contrary to his will, but he intervenes and that person is not permitted to achieve their ends. He is omnipotent, which means to me, he has eyes and ears everywhere that do not fail in reporting.
Just my two cents.
How does knowing something = controlling something?
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Peace
Wootah wrote
How does knowing something = controlling something?
Maybe it's just me, but I think this line of argument is not rational. Knowing something does not mean you control it.
Example I know my son is an excellent artist. If he is, this is a fact. He loves drawing roses. I can't control him or his art.
What we are discussing is different. I know that my son is an excellent artist. He will only draw roses. If this is a fact, I may not be controlling him, but he is controlled. He has no choice.
If we accept that God knows all the decisions we will make due to Him having all the facts, etc, no problem. But then we are discussing things beyond our capabilities. These things are not in line with the limited reasoning that we are afforded. Will we ever be able to satisfy 1736 in discussing this? Our reasoning will be going outside the realm of our human capabilities. We should then leave such discussions alone.
If we accept that God chooses to limit what He knows concerning us, we can freely discuss what this means because it is within our reasoning capabilities.
Once again, I would re-iterate that just because God CHOOSES to limit His knowledge concerning our decisions does not impede on His characteristic of being Omnipotent.
The argument that it would impede on His quality of being All Knowing doesn't make sense to me either. Being All Knowing, He knows that knowledge of all our decisions, renders our freedom of choice nothing but pie in the sky.
If we are to accept that we are playing out something that is in accordance with something we have already done, then this looks very much like a game to me. I don't think that God plays games. It would be something like a bookie accepting wagers on a race that has already being fixed.
Anyway, maybe this is a discussion well left alone if we accept that it is beyond our comprehension.
Imraan
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Peace
Wootah wrote
Maybe it's just me, but I think this line of argument is not rational. Knowing something does not mean you control it.Example I know my son is an excellent artist. If he is, this is a fact. He loves drawing roses. I can't control him or his art.
What we are discussing is different. I know that my son is an excellent artist. He will only draw roses. If this is a fact, I may not be controlling him, but he is controlled. He has no choice.
If we accept that God knows all the decisions we will make due to Him having all the facts, etc, no problem. But then we are discussing things beyond our capabilities. These things are not in line with the limited reasoning that we are afforded. Will we ever be able to satisfy 1736 in discussing this? Our reasoning will be going outside the realm of our human capabilities. We should then leave such discussions alone.
If we accept that God chooses to limit what He knows concerning us, we can freely discuss what this means because it is within our reasoning capabilities.
Once again, I would re-iterate that just because God CHOOSES to limit His knowledge concerning our decisions does not impede on His characteristic of being Omnipotent.
The argument that it would impede on His quality of being All Knowing doesn't make sense to me either. Being All Knowing, He knows that knowledge of all our decisions, renders our freedom of choice nothing but pie in the sky.
If we are to accept that we are playing out something that is in accordance with something we have already done, then this looks very much like a game to me. I don't think that God plays games. It would be something like a bookie accepting wagers on a race that has already being fixed.
Anyway, maybe this is a discussion well left alone if we accept that it is beyond our comprehension.
Imraan
Well it is definitely one we can only speculate about.
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Peace Imraan,
Will we ever be able to satisfy 1736 in discussing this? Our reasoning will be going outside the realm of our human capabilities. We should then leave such discussions alone.
Verse 1736 does not limit one from thinking and reasoning. The Quran as a whole actually encourages this, especially thinking and reasoning regarding the subject of God and his creation.
The way i understand the verse is that one should exercise caution so as to not take anything they know for granted or as absolute truth, that is, sort of apply critical thinking.
Once again, I would re-iterate that just because God CHOOSES to limit His knowledge concerning our decisions does not impede on His characteristic of being Omnipotent.
Being All Knowing, He knows that knowledge of all our decisions, renders our freedom of choice nothing but pie in the sky.
If we are to accept that we are playing out something that is in accordance with something we have already done, then this looks very much like a game to me. I don't think that God plays games. It would be something like a bookie accepting wagers on a race that has already being fixed
Freedom is not to be independant of what God knows of ones destiny. Rather it is that we are free to choose or not to choose God and be who we want to be. There is nothing that limits us from doing this if he were to know the outcome for it is we that make all these desicions, under God.
There is no reason for God to limit his own power and knowledge. He is supreme and ALL-Knowing in all things every time for all eternity. The omnipotence of God, i feel should be the center of all our reasoning.
If i right now were to ask God of whether i would attain salvation or not i am certain beyond all doubt that he would be able to give me the answer. If i were to ask him anything else that can be asked i am certain beyond all doubt that he would be able to give me the answer.
Anyway, maybe this is a discussion well left alone if we accept that it is beyond our comprehension.
Well, actually everything is beyond our full comprehension. Even what we choose to call science are only approximated models that we come up with to describe things at our level of understanding.
We can however not limit ourselves because of this. Abraham came to the conclusion of God by thinking and reasoning and for this God called him a friend. However limited it might be, our potential is well enough to have us appreciate Gods wonders, if we just put some thought to it.
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Peace Halil,
You have certainly misunderstood my stance on 1736. This verse itself encourages us to reason.
As for the remainder of your post, it promotes speculation in the sense that your certainty that God can give you an answer on your destiny is purely speculative. This assertion is made regarding something that none of us comprehend. Hence, imo, such an assertion does not comply with 1736 by virtue of the fact that you are speaking of that which you do not know (which none of us know really). Anyway, I could be wrong.
Imraan
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Peace Imraan,
This assertion is made regarding something that none of us comprehend. Hence, imo, such an assertion does not comply with 1736 by virtue of the fact that you are speaking of that which you do not know (which none of us know really).
My bad on the misunderstandment of your view on the verse. But again, "speaking of that which you have no knowledge of" would not involve reasoning even if it is in a speculative manner, as is most if not all reasoning.
I would understand it more as if say, one would maybe assume that hadith is divine guidance but not sure and still adhere to them. Because than one has passed a certain line where it is no longer reasoning but something applied in practice as if it was truth with certainty.Yes of course, what i propose is only speculation, as would be with anything by anyone. But speculation for the sake of reason and further understanding can only be beneficial. Hence my standing on that we should not stop reasoning on things beyond our comprehension. It would be to limit oneself inside boundries not set up by God.
I must say though, im keen on the concept of the unrestrained omnipotence of God. So i would actually like to find a verse in the Quran supporting this ;D, without me having go through certain lenghts interpreting it so of course.
Ill come back on this if i find anything in the Quran, God willing. -
Peace to all of you,
Well i guess this topic has been cold for some time now but reading a certain verse just recently, reminded me of this discussion and that i would post if i found anything in the Quran supporting my view, which is that God knows our destiny aforetime.
057.022 No misfortune can happen on earth or in your souls but is recorded in a decree before We bring it into existence That is truly easy for God
057.023 In order that ye may not despair over matters that pass you by, nor exult over favours bestowed upon you. For God loveth not any vainglorious boaster,-
God knows best.
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Physics has a perfect explanation for this.
Yes, ALLAH knows your entire past. He knows your entire SET of POSSIBLE futures. To expand, we have in physics this thing called a light cone.
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/World_line.svg/300px-World_line.svg.pngALLAH knows your future light cone and your past light cone. He could not have created the universe without knowing this because the concept of a light cone does not just apply to people but every single particle in the universe.
However, you can see the future is a cone that expands with time. However, you are a single point in time, and a complex surface in space (shown as observer). When you move in space, you trace out a path
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Brane-wlwswv.png/300px-Brane-wlwswv.png
And thus does ALLAH know everything about everything.
Your world-path is essentially your "book" that will be presented to you on judgement day.
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Hmmm... well its stimulating
Giving some thought and reading its wiki description though raises some questions for me on the validity of applying the theory on this subject.The reason that the cones form is that the traces light leaves in space is dependant on time. Thus the further we move in the time-axis the larger the circle formed by the initial flash of light. And this only applies to a single event with a specific initial configuration and the effects of it in time-space.
We now have to consider an infite number of different configurations of the initial event E, say an infinite number of possible speeds to the light. Depending on the speed, ranging from zero to infinity and measured at a certain time T, say judgement day. Than the cone would form a 90 degree angle in relation to the plane perpendicular the the time-axis for the case of zero speed, resulting in a straight line. It would than form an angle of zero degrees for infinite speed where it effects all other events in time space instantaniously, resulting in a square of infite width and length and finite hight.
To depict the dependency on the property of the event we would need one more dimension, not including the extra one dimension required to depict the true three dimensional space.
Furthermore we need to consider an infinite number of configurations of other events scattered in time space that are or are not affected by our event E in question, each with its own infinite number of initial configurations. This would require quite some additional dimensions to depict.
Alright lets assume that we are able to depict all these dimensions required graphically and than also able to compute all possible reprecautions that can occur until the given time T being judgement day.
The question now is, of all these infite number of configurations set up. HOW do we know WHICH one of these is the one that WILL occur?
This is a question that no model can answer and truly the mystery of it only God knows.I mean i know for instance that ill either end up in hell or in heaven. These are the two final reprecautions that can occur at time T out of all the infinite number of configurations. So although the whole thing simplifies into these two in the end, we still cannot know which one it will be. The denotion "we" not including God... of course D.
Well i could just be all wrong about the model too of course .
For speeds above the speed of light for instance wed have to take into account relativistic effects and in that case the previous assumption of infinite speed would be incorrect. But the final question would still be the same. HOW do we know WHICH event WILL occur is an unknown variable that cannot be described. Not by us.God knows best though
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If you imagine yourself as a world-path then it transpires. If you move your hand to the left, you've chosen one path, you move it to the right, that's another. The reason we don't know which event will occur is because that's where free will comes into the picture.
In this universe everything is willed by ALLAH to happen. We share a small amount of ALLAH's will and we call it "free will" or "consciousness" as if we're the only things in the universe that have this property.
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I really find the concept of free will quite amazing.
We have been created perfect to the point where theres no detail to really fine tune on the design aspect. The final part of the completion of our creation lies with ourselves and the choices we make freely, influencing who and what we eventually become.
A freedom which God has willed for us.Our free will brings out the beaty in our faith. One where God never forced us in any way to seek closeness to him, but rather one where we at some point in our lives chose him because that is what we want, when really there is so much in this world opposite to it which we could have chosen.
This makes the masterful plan so much more elegant than if we had been created perfect in spirit.
I mean its one thing to worship if we were programmed to do it without any choice or freedom. That would render our soul void.
It is however a completely different story if we choose to worship through the essence of our free spirit. By free choice and all the things that we have at least begun to understand throughout our lives.Praise be to God, its amazing ).
And the beaty of the reality of all things not evident to us due to our lack of truly grasping or having insight.
Especially nowdays more than ever we are to distrcated by too many things of no actual importance other than the illusion it conveys into our minds, to be able to have a full relationship to our creator.
