Quran Votes for Makkah

raginggaijin

salam

thank you for your reply raginggaijin. you mentioned good points.

so, 2229 means pilgrims go and visit inside the Bayt? but isn't Kabbah too small for that?

Why are you stating it is too small?
If free access was granted people could enter it and exit as they please.
Allah is clear how a believer should act while on Hajj; avoiding argument and discord while performing their duties Surah 2197

Have you ever read the entire Quran?

and about the sacrifice, if it is made outside of Masjid Al-Haram, then why we bring it to the Bayt? I think there is still a little mistake in understanding of 595-97, 2233.

What you think and what is apparent is clear. The Quran is clear on where the sacrifice is to be taken. Why are you asking to contradict what the Quran commands?
Why are you upholding traditions of man over the Quran when you are warned against it? Surah 73

Those who follow hadith follow the teachings of satans, they do not follow the revelation of Allah. They will be stand before Him and find Him to be Judge on that great and terrible Day.
Just as the Yahudians who follow their satanic Talmud will be Judged for their idolatry and blasphemy.
Why are you following the low desires of the People of the Book when you are warned against it? Surah 548-50

can you answer the questions in the "where was mohammed" article? or address a place where I can find the answers?
here is the questions

Why did the early Muslims according to the evidence conduct the Salat facing Jerusalem (1st Qibla) if Mecca was the location for God?s Temple?

Where is your proof of this claim? Where is the evidence in the Quran that you base this claim?
Are you telling me you are taking the stories of satans over the revelation? Is that your claim?
Proof is given Allah mentions cities, plural. Proof is given Allah mentions the mountain ranges between them.

Why are you upholding the destroyed Temple of the disobedient polytheists, Yahudian idolators, as the only location of Allah's sanctuary?

You are shown numerous references from the Tankah where the qiblah for the Yahudians was Masjid Al-Aqsa, the Temple of Solomon.
You are shown numerous references from the Quran that Masjid Al-Aqsa is the Temple of the Yahudians, the Temple of Solomon, destroyed the second time for their disobedience and idolatry.

Where is your proof from the Quran to back up your claims the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) faced Jerusalem? The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have searched the heavens, not Jerusalem. Surah 2144

Again I ask, why are you following the low desires of the People of the Book when you are warned against it? Surah 548-50

Why is there a clear contradiction in the Sunni/Shia traditions whereby they claim that Mohammed only faced Jerusalem for about 18 months after arriving to Medina (i.e. until 624 A.D. which corresponds to his 2nd year of the Hijra), yet they neglect to mention what qibla he faced for the 12 previous years since he apparently declared his messengership in 610 A.D!

Why are you upholding hadith when Allah commands you to uphold only what He revealed? Surah 299, 6155, 6106, 73, 7157, 7203-204, 864, 10109, 12111, 332, 1736,1827-28, 159, 2848-49, 3529, 496, 5417,22,32,40, 7518, 8521-22, 961, 981-8
The Prophet Muhammad followed only what Allah revealed Surah 650, 7203-204, 1015, 469

Why are you asking me why man makes mistakes when Allah does not make mistakes, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052

Why does Islamic tradition hold that the Prophet journeyed to Jerusalem before his ascension to heaven during the ?night journey??

Why are you upholding a tradition based on the Zoroastrian teachings?
Why are you debating when Masjid Al-Aqsa is clearly named in Surah 171.

"Subhana allathee asra biAAabdihi laylan mina almasjidi alharami ila almasjidi al-aqsa allathee barakna hawlahu linuriyahu min ayatina innahu huwa alssameeAAu albaseeru" Surah 171

Since you believe that Abraham (and Ismail) raised the foundations of the Kaaba in Mecca, then why do the faiths after Abraham (Jewish & Christian) not acknowledge that Abraham traveled as far south as Mecca or that their pilgrimage was to that area?

There is a concerted effort by the Yahudians to discredit Ishmael (pbuh) as a rightful heir of Abraham (pbuh) in the Torah/Tankah. Allah is clear Those who inherited the Books sold their souls for a small price by changing His word to suit their desires. Their reward will be the Fire. Surah 275, 279, 378, 446, 514-15, 7162

"Those who conceal what of the Book God has sent down on them, and sell it for a little price - they shall eat naught but the Fire in their bellies; God shall not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection neither purify them; there awaits them a painful chastisement." Surah 2174

Have you ever read the entire Bible?
Why does Moses (pbuh) ask Pharaoh to take his people 3 days into the wilderness to give thanks to Allah, prior to their leaving Egypt, before given their rites of devotion Hag Sukkot, Hag ha-Mazzot, and Hag Shabu?ot?
"And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." Exo. 51
"And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD." Exo. 109

Allah is clear He gave each nation acts of devotion (shaAAa-iri) Surah 52, 2232, 2234, 2236, 2267
Yahudians follow their rites given by Allah through Moses and Aaron (pbut).
Prior to their acts revealed unto them through Moses and Aaron (pbut), they performed a different act of devotion.

Revealed as revealed to other Prophets (pbut) Surah 287, 2253, 26192-194, 4163, 4171, 5110, 1602, 16102, 4143, 4252, 5822

Do you accept the physical evidence that the Arabic language as revealed in the Scripture is a product of the Nabataens who were dominant in the Jordan/Palestine area?

I have been shown no 'physical evidence' of which you speak. Why would you demand I accept something unseen, without proof to substantiate it?
Why would you ask me to believe you when your own questions and comments prove you uphold teachings of polytheist Yahudians over the Quran?

?O you who believe, if an unrighteous man brings you news, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you did.? Surah 496

Let me ask you this
Do you know where Midian was?
Do you know who the people of Petra were called?
Do you know who the Nabateans worshiped?

Do you know where the Mother of Cities was located?

Can you find Mecca - Arabia as being on any ancient trade map, or recorded as a center for pilgrimage or major religious activity before the 7th century A.D?

Do you uphold maps as a source of religious guidance now?

This is a strawman argument.
If you want to quote an argument from Patricia Crone?s ?Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam? that is your choice. You were warned many times about following teachings of man, or in this case a woman, over what Allah revealed.
Patricia Crone, I might add, co-wrote the book ?Hagarism The Making of the Islamic World?. Why the vested interest in invalidating Al-Islam?

Yet if you wish to uphold this teaching, then look again at Ptolmey?s location of Macoraba, and where it is located by other cartographers as late as the 1700s. This invalidates Crone?s claim Ptolmey was not speaking of Mecca. The cartographers did not have access to the Intenet in the 1700s. They went off of the knowledge passed down from those who came before them as to the names and locations of the cities.

Map of Ancient Arabia
http//www.wdl.org/en/item/2923

And every map shows a range of mountains, sierras, between Jerusalem and Mecca.

And as reported in 1878-79 by the Royal Institute of British Architects journal ?Transactions?, pages 78-82
?We have now seen, lying within short distances, three several quartz-fields, known as?Marwah, "the single Place or Hill of Mani" (quartz); Marical, "the Places of Quartz;" and Abd'l-Maru, " the Father of Quartz;" not to speak of a Nakb Abu Marwah further north. Schweinfurth (the Alhenasum, July 6, 187 also describes a "Wadi Abu Marwa ('Quartz Valley&#039" south of the African Galalah block. The conclusion forced itself upon me that the name of the celebrated Arab mine Zu'l-Marwah or El-Marwah, the more ancient Moxovpa (Mochura), which Ptolemy places in north lat. 24? 30*, applied to the whole district in South Midian, and then came to denote the chief place and centre of work. To judge by the extent of the nuns, and the signs of labour, this focus was at Umm el-Kardyat ("the Mother of the Villages &quot, which is surrounded by a multitude of miner-towns and ateliers. And the produce of the " diggings " would naturally gravitate to El-Bada, the great commercial station upon Nabathaean " Overland."?

http//books.google.com/books?id=6utEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA80&lpg=PA80&dq=mochura+arabia&source=bl&ots=Wy07wOGHko&sig=k10Pd0IhYv6YNfcyDXmU8RKMWMM&hl=en&ei=57KcS8DZLoOIsgOUo_l9&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mochura%20arabia&f=false

?This is a Book We have sent down, blessed and confirming that which was before it, and for thee to warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those about her; and those who believe in the world to come believe in it, and watch over their prayers.? Surah 692
?And so We have revealed to thee an Arabic Koran, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those who dwell about it, and that thou mayest warn of the Day of Gathering, wherein is no doubt -- a party in Paradise, and a party in the Blaze.? Surah 427

Here is written reports by accredited men of Archeology, predating the Islamic incursion into Europe, predating the easy access of the Internet, that Midian is the Mother of Cities described and named in the Quran, surrounded by other cities described and named in the Quran, near the destroyed village of Lot described in the Quran, near Petra described in the Quran.

Midian is where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was exiled. Mecca is where he and the believers settled. Proof of this claim was given earlier in this forum post, using proof only from the Quran.
If you would like a reprint of it, please let me know. I will gladly repost it here for your convenience.

As well, you can find reference to the House of Allah in the Bible.
Isaiah 11-18 speaks of the Yahudians, the destruction of their lands and homes, and their festivals while in exile.

"Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city." Isa. 17

This was during the exile of the Yahudians after the first destruction of the Temple, and prior to the rebuilding by Cyrus the Persian, (named Messiah in Isaiah 451), and completed by Darius I (known as Dhul-Qarnain in the Quran), who created the wall of Derbent in the Caucasus Mountains.

"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." Isa. 111-14

What courts of Allah were trampled in new moon feasts when the Temple was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar?

Do you believe the remains of Lot's town are near the towm of Mecca - Arabia, or, are they nearer to the town of Jerusalem?

The remains of Lot?s town are near the remains of Midian, not the city of Mecca. See the earlier rebuttal to the Prophet Muhammad being exiled from Mecca in this forum post.

Richard Burton also describes the mines in the mountain range south of Midian, north-west of Medina, north of Mecca El-Marwah.
The Gold Mines of Midian
http//books.google.com/books?id=ViIpHsRQtFQC&lpg=PA254&ots=diBDcQOx6K&dq=mochura%20arabian&pg=PA254#v=onepage&q&f=false

As well, there are archeological ruins explored in the 1890s by the Royal Institute of British Architects (link and quoted text provided in this rebuttal) which discusses

The Byzantine construction of the Dome of the Rock.
Jerusalem and the destroyed Temple..
Midian, south of Petra, north of Madina, north of Mecca.
El-Marwah, south of Midian, north of Mecca.
Why is the rock outcropping (which is attributed as ?Maqam Ibrahim?) located inside the Temple at Jerusalm (as per the description given in 39 while the ?Maqam Ibrahim? in Mecca is located outside the shrine/temple conflicting with the description given in the Scripture?

Do you know what ?maqami? means?
The Kaaba is the maqami, place of Abraham Surah 2125, 397, 2226
?And when We appointed the House to be a place of visitation for the people, and a sanctuary, and 'Take to yourselves Abraham's station for a place of prayer.' And We made covenant with Abraham and Ishmael 'Purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that cleave to it, to those who bow and prostrate themselves.'?

Nowhere in the Quran does it designate ?maqami? as a fixed position like a rock or a pair of feet indented in the ground, but as a sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah. Your claim as to the description of the station is false.

?Say 'O my people, act according to your station (makanatikum); I am acting. And assuredly you will know who shall possess the Abode Ultimate. Surely the evildoers will not prosper.'? Surah 6135
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station (maqamee) and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And as for the night, keep vigil a part of it, as a work of supererogation for thee; it may be that thy Lord will raise thee up to a laudable station (maqaman).? Surah 1779

I ask you again Why are you upholding traditions of man over the revelation of Allah?

Why was Mohammed adamant on facing the mighty Roman (Byzantium) army to the North. Did the Roman's hold something dear to make him take such a risk?

Show me the reference to this in the Quran please.
If it is not in the Quran, why are you creating a double-bind rhetoric? You are asking a question that implies a truth within it, requiring I am to acknowledge this without proof of your claim.
Bring your proofs. Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

Show me in the Quran where Muhammad (pbuh) was so adamant to face the 'mighty Roman (Byzantium) army', if you speak truthfully.

Why did Abdel Malik construct a magnificent Dome around the rock outcropping in Jerusalem as a ?Temple/Shrine? with no mihrab facing Mecca and no features of a typical mosque?

Where is your proof of this claim Abdel Malik constructed the Dome of the Rock?

In the paper ?Transactions?, link provided earlier, discusses the Dome of the Rock and its origin

?Mr. Fergusson is of opinion that the Dome of the Rock was originally built by Constantine, and that the cave in the rock is the true sepulchre of Our Lord. With regard to the second hypothesis it may be remarked that if the Temple stood on the Sakhrah, the true sepulchre of Christ cannot have been situated there also. With regard to the first and distinct question, where did Constantine build his church1! the main objection?out of very many?to Mr. Fergusson's theory lies in the topographical descriptions of Jerusalem in the fourth and fifth centuries, which place Constantine's church in the middle of the city and north of Sion, while the Arab historians agree with the Cufic inscriptions on the walls of the Dome of the Rock in attributing that building to the Caliph 'Abd el Melek in the seventh century.
Turning next to the question of the plan of the Dome of the Rock, one cannot fail to recognise a general resemblance to the Dome of the Chain, except in respect of the outer wall of the larger building. The Dome of the Rock has a circular drum rising from 12 pillars and 4 piers, while a screen outside this circle springs from 16 pillars and 8 piers arranged in an octagon. The outer wall has also the octagonal form, and the measurement from angle to angle through the centre of the building is 176 feet from outside to outside. The Dome of the Chain has an octagonal drum supported on 6 pillars and a screen supported on 10 pillars. It will be found that the diameter of the Dome of the Chain is almost exactly 2-5ths of that of the Dome of the Rock, measuring to the octagonal screen, and that the heights to the top of the two domes have the same proportion. The proportions of the Dome of the Rock will probably strike any observer as giving too great a breadth for the height; thus we are led to ask whether the outer wall may not be a later addition, and in corroboration of such a supposition we find that while the screen has on it an inscription dated 688 A.d., the doors of the outer wall have the date 831 A.D. in the Cufic inscriptions on their leaves, and the beams of the ceiling above the wall bear the date 913 A.d. As far as concerns the plan of the buildings there seems therefore no great difficulty in accepting the Arab account, which makes the Dome of the Chain the model whence the Dome of the Rock was built, if we suppose the outer wall of the latter to be a later addition.
We may next consider briefly the details of the two buildings, especially the pillars, the arches, and the wooden tie rods between the columns. It may be noted generally that these buildings, if the Arab historians are trustworthy, belong to a very early period of Moslem art. It may be easy to compare them with Byzantine buildings, but it is almost impossible to find contemporary Arab examples. The Mosque at Damascus, belonging to the same period, is merely a converted Basilica like the Aksah ; and the Mosque of 'Amru, Mr. Fergusson informs us, has been rebuilt, so that it is doubtful whether any of the original work remains. Whatever then be the style of the two buildings now under consideration, it cannot be positively said that such a style was not used by the Caliph 'Abd el Melek, because no examples are known of his style which can be contrasted with these his supposed erections. If, moreover, there is any striking structural resemblance in the details of the Dome of the Rock and Dome of the Chain, we should hardly conclude that the one is the work of 'Abd el Melek, but that the other is nearly four hundred years older; for to say the least such a conclusion would be unnatural in the face of the historical evidence. If it be possible that the Caliph built the Dome of the Chain it is equally possible that he built the Dome of the Rock, if it is shown that the two have a similar plan and similar style in their details.
The pillars in the Dome of the Chain are of varied design, but generally speaking of semi-classic or Byzantine outline, and appear to have been taken from some older building. They are tied together by a wooden beam above the capitals, and semi-circular arches spring from them. The pillars in the Dome of the Rock are also of varied design and of early Byzantine character. A wooden beam runs above them and semi-circular arches spring from the beam. The character of the columns can be judged by the sketches* given in illustration of this Paper. I have several times examined both the inner and the outer circle, and made sketches of all the capitals and of several bases. Only three of the capitals under the drum are alike, the rest differ in size, in outline, and in details. The capitals also differ in their state of preservation, but in most cases the volutes and acanthus' leaves have been much defaced, the projecting edges having been knocked off. One of the capitals is evidently placed on a shaft which did not originally belong to it, but which requires a larger capital. The sixteen capitals in the screen are more uniform, and twelve of them differ only in the device between the volutes, one of which devices (given in the illustration t) has been thought to represent a cross, though possibly it is only a trefoil. Two of the capitals in this line are however of entirely different design, and the shafts supporting them are longer than the other shafts. Above the pillars in the screen are blocks now covered with thin marble veneer. In 1874 the construction of these blocks became visible, and it was seen that they surround smaller stone blocks which are square and quite plain. The spaces between are filled with rubble. The blocks above the two capitals, which stand on the longer shafts, are only half as deep as those above the other capitals, so that all the arches spring from one level. There is a difference of several inches in the diameters of the various shafts of the columns. These shafts do not rest immediately on the bases but on layers of lead} differing from \ inches to finch in thickness. The original bases are now covered up with marble flagging, but this was removed in 1874, and it was then found that the bases also differ.in outline and in height, one being only 4 inches high, a second 12, and a third 17 inches. It is clear then that the columns and their bases and capitals are of very heterogeneous character; that they were probably taken from some other building and not expressly made for the Dome of the Rock. It would consequently be unsafe to base any argument on their Byzantine character.? Pages 33-36

Heterogeneous consisting of dissimilar or diverse ingredients or constituent.

The Dome of the Rock, with Byzantine architecture based on a similar building made 400 years earlier?
?And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of expectation (wa-irsadan) for those who fought Allah and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and Allah testifies they are truly liars.
Stand there never. A mosque that was founded upon godfearing from the first day is worthier for thee to stand in; therein are men who love to cleanse themselves; and Allah loves those who cleanse themselves.? Surah 9107-108

Place of expectation Surah 95, 9107, 7821

Why did Abdel Malik call people to pilgrim to Jerusalem and away from Mecca as per some historians?

Continued double-bind.
First, where is your proof of this claim? You continue to bring forth double-bind rhetoric, requiring I am to take your word for this account when it is proven already you uphold teachings of men over the revelation of Allah. Where is your proof?
Second, are you slandering a person based on conjecture? Do you know this man and has he admitted that he told people to do this?
Third, if you have proof that this man actually did such an action, the answer is clearly stated in the Quran Disbelievers follow conjecture and are mislead by the satans who speak varnished falsehood to deceive.

"Whoso blinds himself to the Remembrance of the All-merciful, to him We assign a Satan for comrade;" Surah 4336
"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- Satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112

Why did the Caliph Suleyman as late as 717 A.D. show confusion in whether it was Mecca or Jerusalem that the pilgrimage should be conducted to? (see source)

See above.

Why does the prophecy associated with Israel?s 2nd rising speak of their defeat by the retaking of the ?Temple?? Is Israel planning to occupy Mecca any time in the future? Or, is God speaking of His Temple in Jerusalem that they have already occupied during the 1967 war?

The prophecy is a fake. There will be no ?second rising? of Israel.
The Bani Israel were scattered after the second destruction of the Temple. Allah does not allow a people to rise again after their destruction.
?And it is binding on a town which We destroy that they shall not return.
till, when Gog and Magog are unloosed, and they slide down out of every slope,
and nigh has drawn the true promise, and behold, the eyes of the unbelievers staring 'Alas for us! We were heedless of this; 'nay, we were evildoers.'? Surah 2195-97

The state of Israel does not comprise the Bani Israel, but the Gog and Magog, descendants of those who inherited the land. They too will be judged along with all mankind. They make their plans but Allah is the best planner.
Taking the name 'Jew' and calling a land 'Israel' does not make one Bani Israel.
48 million Chinese Muslims cannot declare they are Arabs because they follow the Quran and make their pilgrimage to Mecca.

Allah requites the unbelievers for an appointed term. They will be Judged.

Why is the ?kaaba? of Mecca located at the base of a valley where it is prone to flash floods? Is this in-line with the monotheistic purpose of providing a sanctuary for the pilgrims, or, is it related to the pagan practices of Arabia as found at other such sites in the Negev?

Are you saying you know better than Allah where to place the maqami Ibrahim?

If the Yahud are the chosen of Allah, why were they punished twice for their idolatry, their lands destroyed and given unto new generations?
If the Yahud are the chosen of Allah at the exception of all others, why are they still being chastised?
If the Yahud are the chosen of Allah at the exception of all others, let them invoke death. Surah 294, 626-8

Why do pilgrims in Mecca circle around the cube 7 times, as well as running between two hills 7 times? Does this seem to be an act associated with God?s system where He asks us to ?think? and ?reason?, or, is it more associated with the empty pagan rituals of the time?

I do not understand why you ask this question, when it is clear the pagan practice of circling the Kaaba is not revealed in the Quran, nor the running between the hills Safa and Marwa.
Allah is clear There are few believers. Surah 1140, 5136, 3824
Those who inherited the Book have thrown it behind their back in favor of satanic teachings of the Yahudians and Nazarene written into hadith.
The same system of disbelief found in Orthodox Judaism today, writing tafsir in their Talmud stating it is the Oral Law, the ?sunna? of their Prophet.

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

The actions of unbelievers does not invalidate the Message.

Why do you uphold teachings of men over the Quran? Proof is in your words, your questions.
Why do you uphold the teachings of Yahudians over the Quran? Proof is in your words, your questions.

I was asked months ago about Safa and Marwah ? challenged to bring proof. What you see here is what Allah guided me to, using the Quran as the authority, the explanation for all things. The Quran verifies everything shown today, refuting the falsehood of the Yahudians.

I now return the question asked of you earlier by a believer Why have you not prayed to Allah and asked Him to show you the answers?

Bring your proofs. Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238
Explanation is not proof.

May Allah increase the wicked in nothing but destruction. Surah 7128
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
May Allah guide us closer to the Truth.

Peace.

ayman

Peace Raginggaijin,

Anyone can criticize anything. What is hard is to propose a better solution.

Why are you stating it is too small?
If free access was granted people could enter it and exit as they please.
Allah is clear how a believer should act while on Hajj; avoiding argument and discord while performing their duties Surah 2197
Have you ever read the entire Quran?

What is the solution that you suggest so that 1 million people can enter and exit a stone cube "as they please"?

What you think and what is apparent is clear. The Quran is clear on where the sacrifice is to be taken. Why are you asking to contradict what the Quran commands?

Where is the sacrifice to be taken according to your interpretation and how do you suggest that this would be done?

Why are you upholding traditions of man over the Quran when you are warned against it? Surah 73
Those who follow hadith follow the teachings of satans, they do not follow the revelation of Allah. They will be stand before Him and find Him to be Judge on that great and terrible Day.
Just as the Yahudians who follow their satanic Talmud will be Judged for their idolatry and blasphemy.
Why are you following the low desires of the People of the Book when you are warned against it? Surah 548-50

Those are the very same people who think that Mecca is the place to go for ?hagg? and imagine to face it during prayer. Why would you want to promote and go to any place of idolatry where pagan rituals and symbols like spinning around a stone cube 7 times happen in clear violation of the god?s commandments?

Where is your proof of this claim? Where is the evidence in the Quran that you base this claim?
Are you telling me you are taking the stories of satans over the revelation? Is that your claim?
Proof is given Allah mentions cities, plural. Proof is given Allah mentions the mountain ranges between them.
Why are you upholding the destroyed Temple of the disobedient polytheists, Yahudian idolators, as the only location of Allah's sanctuary?
You are shown numerous references from the Tankah where the qiblah for the Yahudians was Masjid Al-Aqsa, the Temple of Solomon.
You are shown numerous references from the Quran that Masjid Al-Aqsa is the Temple of the Yahudians, the Temple of Solomon, destroyed the second time for their disobedience and idolatry.
Where is your proof from the Quran to back up your claims the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) faced Jerusalem? The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have searched the heavens, not Jerusalem. Surah 2144

I agree that there is absolutely no evidence from anywhere that the prophet faced Jerusalem. There is also absolutely no evidence that the prophet faced Mecca. Where is your proof from the ?quran? to back up your claims the prophet Muhammad faced Mecca?

There is a concerted effort by the Yahudians to discredit Ishmael (pbuh) as a rightful heir of Abraham (pbuh) in the Torah/Tankah. Allah is clear Those who inherited the Books sold their souls for a small price by changing His word to suit their desires. Their reward will be the Fire. Surah 275, 279, 378, 446, 514-15, 7162
"Those who conceal what of the Book God has sent down on them, and sell it for a little price - they shall eat naught but the Fire in their bellies; God shall not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection neither purify them; there awaits them a painful chastisement." Surah 2174
Have you ever read the entire Bible?
Why does Moses (pbuh) ask Pharaoh to take his people 3 days into the wilderness to give thanks to Allah, prior to their leaving Egypt, before given their rites of devotion Hag Sukkot, Hag ha-Mazzot, and Hag Shabu?ot?
"And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." Exo. 51
"And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD." Exo. 109
Allah is clear He gave each nation acts of devotion (shaAAa-iri) Surah 52, 2232, 2234, 2236, 2267
Yahudians follow their rites given by Allah through Moses and Aaron (pbut).
Prior to their acts revealed unto them through Moses and Aaron (pbut), they performed a different act of devotion.
Revealed as revealed to other Prophets (pbut) Surah 287, 2253, 26192-194, 4163, 4171, 5110, 1602, 16102, 4143, 4252, 5822

Can you underline the word Mecca anywhere? What is clear is that at the time of prophet Mohamed and long before him the word ?hagg? meant ?feast?. Why do you now want to promote Mecca or any place where instead of a feast, pagan rituals such as spinning 7 times around a stone cube and running between two small hills to look for water for an imaginary newborn are preformed?

I have been shown no 'physical evidence' of which you speak. Why would you demand I accept something unseen, without proof to substantiate it?

The Nabataeans were not in Jerusalem so the arguments in the article are irrelevant anyway.

There is no doubt that Arabic was a spoken vernacular language in the Nabataean (and later the Lakhmid) towns in Northern Arabia (see for example the inscriptions of Namara and En Evadat, etc.).

What we call today the Arabic script came from the Nabataean script and this is easily verifiable because there is plenty of evidence (just do a quick Google search).

Why would you ask me to believe you when your own questions and comments prove you uphold teachings of polytheist Yahudians over the Quran?
?O you who believe, if an unrighteous man brings you news, look carefully into it, lest you harm a people in ignorance, then be sorry for what you did.? Surah 496
Let me ask you this
Do you know where Midian was?
Do you know who the people of Petra were called?
Do you know who the Nabateans worshiped?
Do you know where the Mother of Cities was located?

Do you know the answers to those questions? If you do then you know that the answers have nothing to do with Mecca.

Do you uphold maps as a source of religious guidance now?
This is a strawman argument.
If you want to quote an argument from Patricia Crone?s ?Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam? that is your choice. You were warned many times about following teachings of man, or in this case a woman, over what Allah revealed.
Patricia Crone, I might add, co-wrote the book ?Hagarism The Making of the Islamic World?. Why the vested interest in invalidating Al-Islam?
Yet if you wish to uphold this teaching, then look again at Ptolmey?s location of Macoraba, and where it is located by other cartographers as late as the 1700s. This invalidates Crone?s claim Ptolmey was not speaking of Mecca. The cartographers did not have access to the Intenet in the 1700s. They went off of the knowledge passed down from those who came before them as to the names and locations of the cities.

Actually, like everyone else until the 8th century CE, Ptolemy never mentions any town by the name of Mecca. I have a copy of an English translation of Ptolemy?s work. I scanned it here for everyone to verify for themselves

http//i44.tinypic.com/2unwljd.gif

As you can see, Ptolemy listed the towns in Arabia going from north to south. After Iathrippa (Yathrib), going from north to south Ptolemy lists 5 more towns and then a town named Macoraba (which doesn?t even sound anything like Mecca)

"Iathrippa
**
Macoraba"

Ptolemy described Macoraba, not as the next city south of Iathrippa, but the sixth city to the south of it. The first of those names is the city of Carna. So while Macoraba is the sixth city to the south, the city of Carna is the first city to the south of Iathrippa. Thus, Ptolemy places Macoraba south of Carna. Present day Mecca on the other hand is North of Carna. So according to Ptolemy, it is impossible for Macoraba to be present day Mecca and it was in fact a town somewhere in South Arabia to the south of present day Mecca. A likely candidate is a city called Mochorba in South Arabia that was described by other geographers (Pliny).

I am sure that Ptolemy was not a Yahudian out to discredit Ishmael as a rightful heir of Abraham.

Map of Ancient Arabia
http//www.wdl.org/en/item/2923
And every map shows a range of mountains, sierras, between Jerusalem and Mecca.

Do you uphold a map drawn in 1720 and which doesn?t even show any town by the name of Mecca as a source of religious guidance now?

And as reported in 1878-79 by the Royal Institute of British Architects journal ?Transactions?, pages 78-82
?We have now seen, lying within short distances, three several quartz-fields, known as?Marwah, "the single Place or Hill of Mani" (quartz); Marical, "the Places of Quartz;" and Abd'l-Maru, " the Father of Quartz;" not to speak of a Nakb Abu Marwah further north. Schweinfurth (the Alhenasum, July 6, 187 also describes a "Wadi Abu Marwa ('Quartz Valley&#039" south of the African Galalah block. The conclusion forced itself upon me that the name of the celebrated Arab mine Zu'l-Marwah or El-Marwah, the more ancient Moxovpa (Mochura), which Ptolemy places in north lat. 24? 30*, applied to the whole district in South Midian, and then came to denote the chief place and centre of work. To judge by the extent of the nuns, and the signs of labour, this focus was at Umm el-Kardyat ("the Mother of the Villages &quot, which is surrounded by a multitude of miner-towns and ateliers. And the produce of the " diggings " would naturally gravitate to El-Bada, the great commercial station upon Nabathaean " Overland."?

Hmm... again not a single mention of Mecca despite mentioning things that were supposedly of lesser importance.

?This is a Book We have sent down, blessed and confirming that which was before it, and for thee to warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those about her; and those who believe in the world to come believe in it, and watch over their prayers.? Surah 692
?And so We have revealed to thee an Arabic Koran, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those who dwell about it, and that thou mayest warn of the Day of Gathering, wherein is no doubt -- a party in Paradise, and a party in the Blaze.? Surah 427

Please underline where it says that ?omma alqura? is Mecca.

Here is written reports by accredited men of Archeology, predating the Islamic incursion into Europe, predating the easy access of the Internet, that Midian is the Mother of Cities described and named in the Quran, surrounded by other cities described and named in the Quran, near the destroyed village of Lot described in the Quran, near Petra described in the Quran.
Midian is where Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was exiled. Mecca is where he and the believers settled. Proof of this claim was given earlier in this forum post, using proof only from the Quran.
If you would like a reprint of it, please let me know. I will gladly repost it here for your convenience.

Can you please repost since I don?t see any proof for Mecca (from the ?quran? or anywhere) in this post or any of your posts.

As well, you can find reference to the House of Allah in the Bible.
Isaiah 11-18 speaks of the Yahudians, the destruction of their lands and homes, and their festivals while in exile.
"Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city." Isa. 17
This was during the exile of the Yahudians after the first destruction of the Temple, and prior to the rebuilding by Cyrus the Persian, (named Messiah in Isaiah 451), and completed by Darius I (known as Dhul-Qarnain in the Quran), who created the wall of Derbent in the Caucasus Mountains.
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." Isa. 111-14
What courts of Allah were trampled in new moon feasts when the Temple was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar?

All that this proves is that the people of the book understood ?hagg? as ?feast? and not the sectarian false ?hagg? at some town named Mecca, which you are promoting.

Nowhere in the Quran does it designate ?maqami? as a fixed position like a rock or a pair of feet indented in the ground, but as a sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah. Your claim as to the description of the station is false.

How is a pagan stone cube a sphere of duty or a place of importance for the service of the god?

I agree with you that Jerusalem has zero importance but so does Mecca.

I do not understand why you ask this question, when it is clear the pagan practice of circling the Kaaba is not revealed in the Quran, nor the running between the hills Safa and Marwa.

It is not just the practices in Mecca that are pagan but also the symbols. In fact the practices are closely tied with the symbols and complete them. The symbols such as the stone cube, the black stone, the eternal spring of Zamzam, the purpose of the space between the two hills, the pillars of the devil, the footprint next to the stone cube, the semi-circle on the north side of the cube, the covering of the cube, etc. are all 100% pagan.

Why are you promoting a place full of pagan practices and symbols? Is this what the god wants us to do?

Peace,

Ayman

raginggaijin

Peace Raginggaijin,

Anyone can criticize anything. What is hard is to propose a better solution.

Ad Hominem.

Why would I propose a 'better solution' when Allah made it clear what we are to do in the Quran for our Hajj? Surah 2196-197
Are you striving to have me commit shirk by giving guidance outside of what Allah revealed?!

?Belongs not sincere religion to Allah? And those who take protectors, apart from Him -- 'We only serve them that they may bring us nigh in nearness to Allah' -- surely Allah shall judge between them touching that whereon they are at variance. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, unthankful.? Surah 393

I seek refuge in Allah from the whispers of the accursed satans.

What is the solution that you suggest so that 1 million people can enter and exit a stone cube "as they please"?
Where is the sacrifice to be taken according to your interpretation and how do you suggest that this would be done?

Ad Hominem.

Why are you asking me what to do? Is not Allah your Lord? Why do you turn to me when Allah is your Guide?
Allah states He gave clear description in the Quran for all things. I do not doubt Allah or His revelation.

?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789

"Those to whom We have given the Book study it as it should be studied they are the ones that believe therein those who reject faith therein, the loss is their own." Surah 2121

"And some of them there are give ear to thee, till, when they go forth from thee, they say to those who have been given knowledge, 'What said he just now?' Those are they upon whose hearts God has set a seal, and they have followed their caprices." Surah 4716

Don't act like the Bani Israel.
"And when Musa said to his people Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said Do you ridicule us? He said I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant.
They said Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is. Musa said He says, Surely she is a cow neither advanced in age nor too young, of middle age between that; do therefore what you are commanded.
They said Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what her color is. Musa said He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; her color is intensely yellow, giving delight to the beholders.
They said Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.
Musa said He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do." Surah 267-71

I am not a Prophet, nor a Messenger. I am not given revelation. Turn to Allah for answers on what you are to do for Hajj.
Read His revelation. The explanation, the description, is inside the Quran. Pray for guidance.

Those are the very same people who think that Mecca is the place to go for ?hagg? and imagine to face it during prayer. Why would you want to promote and go to any place of idolatry where pagan rituals and symbols like spinning around a stone cube 7 times happen in clear violation of the god?s commandments?

Contradiction. Bring it up a step or two.

http//i48.photobucket.com/albums/f204/apclypseishere/buildings/argument-pyramid.jpg

Clarification The followers of hadith face the Kaaba, not Masjid Al-Haram.

Allah commands us to journey there with a sacrifice if we are able. If we are not, He gives us clear description of what we are to do. The actions of the disbelievers do not invalidate the Message. Why do you turn away from His revelation, ayman?!

"The Messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and the believers; each one believes in God and His angels, and in His Books and His Messengers; we make no division between any one of His Messengers. They say, 'We hear, and obey. Our Lord, grant us Thy forgiveness; unto Thee is the homecoming.'" Surah 2285

I agree that there is absolutely no evidence from anywhere that the prophet faced Jerusalem. There is also absolutely no evidence that the prophet faced Mecca. Where is your proof from the ?quran? to back up your claims the prophet Muhammad faced Mecca?

Thank you for your admission.

You agree the Prophet (pbuh) never faced Jerusalem, then why would we follow teachings of the settlers of Jerusalem and perform their rites, their feasts?

?You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.? Exo. 2315
??e-a hammaw ti?mr ?i?a ym?m t?al maw ka??er i??i lmw? e? h?? k?-w y? mimmiryim wl?-yr?? fnay r?qm? Exo 2315
?You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.? Exo. 2316
?wa haqq?r bik?r? ma?ey ??er tizra? baeh wa h?sif b? ha??n? b?sp ?e-ma?ey min-haeh? Exo. 2316
?You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year?s end.? Exo. 3422
?wa ?u? ta?eh l bik?r? q?r i?m wa h?s?f tq?fa ha??n?? Exo. 3422

These are not the rites we are to follow. Abraham (pbuh) was neither a Yahudian nor a Nazarene. He was a Muslim, and he named us such.

You continue with Contradiction.
To refute your second point, I bring the Quran as proof
The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149

Do you doubt this, ayman?

Can you underline the word Mecca anywhere? What is clear is that at the time of prophet Mohamed and long before him the word ?hagg? meant ?feast?. Why do you now want to promote Mecca or any place where instead of a feast, pagan rituals such as spinning 7 times around a stone cube and running between two small hills to look for water for an imaginary newborn are preformed?

Contradiction and Ad Hominem.
I am not promoting pagan rituals and you will bear the burden of sin for your slander.

Why do you strive to make me uphold the teachings of the fathers who came before, the way of the ancients?
Am I a Yahudian, serving the calf instead of Allah? Am I to turn to previous teachings when Allah commands I am to serve only Him and follow ONLY what He revealed?

"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, in the hollow of Mecca (bibatni makkata), after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do." Surah 4824
"Wahuwa allathee kaffa aydiyahum AAankum waaydiyakum AAanhum bibatni makkata min baAAdi an athfarakum AAalayhim wakana Allahu bima taAAmaloona baseeran" Surah 4824

If you choose to believe that ayat means something else, that is between you and Allah, ayman. I am clear of what you do.

The Nabataeans were not in Jerusalem so the arguments in the article are irrelevant anyway.

They, the Yahudians who strive to say the Dome of the Rock is the qiblah, attempt to show the proximity of Petra to Jerusalem makes it relevant to Jerusalem being the qiblah. What they do not know is Midian is in central proximity to Petra, the Dead Sea, Medina, and the cities destroyed in the times of the ancients. Their arguments must be refuted with proof or the response are nothing more than conjecture, which is the basis of the original argument. They don't cancel each other out.

Bring your proofs. Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

There is no doubt that Arabic was a spoken vernacular language in the Nabataean (and later the Lakhmid) towns in Northern Arabia (see for example the inscriptions of Namara and En Evadat, etc.).

Contradiction.

So I am to take your word on it, without proof of the claim? The proof of a man striving to uphold Yahud devotions and interpretation, who doubts the location of Masjid Al-Haram, who restricts men from traveling to the House with their sacrifice?
I am to trust you on your word, or the sources you bring when you uphold teachings I am commanded to reject?

What we call today the Arabic script came from the Nabataean script and this is easily verifiable because there is plenty of evidence (just do a quick Google search).

Contradiction. Your response is akin to the followers of hadith telling me 'Speak with an Imam'. If you have proof, bring it. If you do not, keep silent. It's wiser.

Google is useful and the information can be beneficial. I thank Allah for making information so available to us now. But Google is not the source of guidance, nor is it revealed by Allah. Do you disagree?

But why would it matter if the Arabic script was a derivative of the Nabatean script? Are they, the satans, trying to show a link of origin saying it is a Yahudian script? Pagan script? Arabic is not Hebrew.

If you insist on showing who created the language, go back to the Sumerian script, and the writings that preceded that for Allah taught man to write. He is the Source of knowledge. Surah 964

"They measured not God with His true measure when they said, 'God has not sent down aught on any mortal.' Say 'Who sent down the Book that Moses brought as a light and a guidance to men? You put it into parchments, revealing them, and hiding much; and you were taught that you knew not, you and your fathers.' Say 'God.' Then leave them alone, playing their game of plunging." Surah 691

Allah revealed in clear Arabic, not Hebrew. Surah 122, 20113, 3928, 413, 4144, 427. 433

Do you know the answers to those questions? If you do then you know that the answers have nothing to do with Mecca.

Ad Hominem.

They have everything to do with Midian, the location of it, and its proximity to Petra, the Dead Sea, Medina, al-Marwah, and Mecca. Your blinders are on, focusing on a point you are trying to make while dismissing clear proofs available to you.

Actually, like everyone else until the 8th century CE, Ptolemy never mentions any town by the name of Mecca. I have a copy of an English translation of Ptolemy?s work. I scanned it here for everyone to verify for themselves

http//i44.tinypic.com/2unwljd.gif
As you can see, Ptolemy listed the towns in Arabia going from north to south. After Iathrippa (Yathrib), going from north to south Ptolemy lists 5 more towns and then a town named Macoraba (which doesn?t even sound anything like Mecca)

"Iathrippa
**
Macoraba"

Ptolemy described Macoraba, not as the next city south of Iathrippa, but the sixth city to the south of it. The first of those names is the city of Carna. So while Macoraba is the sixth city to the south, the city of Carna is the first city to the south of Iathrippa. Thus, Ptolemy places Macoraba south of Carna. Present day Mecca on the other hand is North of Carna. So according to Ptolemy, it is impossible for Macoraba to be present day Mecca and it was in fact a town somewhere in South Arabia to the south of present day Mecca. A likely candidate is a city called Mochorba in South Arabia that was described by other geographers (Pliny).

I am sure that Ptolemy was not a Yahudian out to discredit Ishmael as a rightful heir of Abraham.

Contradiction and Ad Hominem.

We can see a 16th century map that shows the location of Macoraba with Mecca, disproving your claim Macoraba is not in relation to Mecca according to cartographers. Cartographers thought Macoraba was Mecca, and made maps used for navigational purposes. Maps still in existence today.

If you so desire, you can use your Google-Fu and see what place is called Macoraba still today, which further clouds your Contradiction.

Which is why we are to rely on Allah and His revelation as a source of information.

Allah does not make mistakes, nor forgets Surah 482, 2052

Do you uphold a map drawn in 1720 and which doesn?t even show any town by the name of Mecca as a source of religious guidance now?

I uphold the Quran as the authority. My words profess this.
The map is only another piece of the puzzle displaying the extent people will go to hide the Truth, to show how man makes mistakes or forgets, and to provide proof that refutes those who seek to lead astray.
You cannot disprove the map, so you attempt to invalidate it with conjecture.
The map drawn in 1720 disproves the statements that Macoraba was not considered to be Mecca.

Hmm... again not a single mention of Mecca despite mentioning things that were supposedly of lesser importance.
Please underline where it says that ?omma alqura? is Mecca.

Ad Hominem.

You are so determined to turn men away from Mecca you ignore the knowledge given to you that provides clear proofs what the Mother City was. It is a shame, but it's your choice, ayman.

Can you please repost since I don?t see any proof for Mecca (from the ?quran? or anywhere) in this post or any of your posts.
All that this proves is that the people of the book understood ?hagg? as ?feast? and not the sectarian false ?hagg? at some town named Mecca, which you are promoting.
How is a pagan stone cube a sphere of duty or a place of importance for the service of the god?

You made your choice, ayman. I'm not your guide, nor am I here for those who disbelieve in the revelation of Allah. What I show is to assist those seeking the Truth, not those seeking to cloud it or direct people to teachings of Yahudians.

Allow me to be clear From your own words you are striving to uphold the teachings of the Yahudians over what Allah revealed.
Allah does not tell us to perform the devotions of the Yahudians in the Quran.
Allah does not tell us to prepare a feast in the Quran.

Allah is specific about why we perform Hajj, what our Hajj is should we be unable to journey to the House, and who we are to feed with our offering.

The only guidance to follow is the Quran. It states clearly Masjid Al-Haram, Masjid Al-Aqsa, Kaaba, Mecca, yet you insist they are not there. You doubt.
Do the actions of the orthodox Yahudians disprove Masjid Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem?
Do the actions of the followers of hadith disprove Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca?

No. They only show the misguidance of the majority.

You are claiming Masjid Al-Haram is not in Mecca. That is your claim, am I correct? If not, then clarify Where is Masjid Al-Haram.

"Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom God has guided; but God would never leave your faith to waste - truly, God is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate." Surah 2143

I agree with you that Jerusalem has zero importance but so does Mecca.

It is not just the practices in Mecca that are pagan but also the symbols. In fact the practices are closely tied with the symbols and complete them. The symbols such as the stone cube, the black stone, the eternal spring of Zamzam, the purpose of the space between the two hills, the pillars of the devil, the footprint next to the stone cube, the semi-circle on the north side of the cube, the covering of the cube, etc. are all 100% pagan.

Are you saying we should not go to where Allah commands us in the Quran because there are pagans there? How do you go outside your house then, for there are pagans everywhere!
Do you never enter a Masjid for fear of the pagans that practice there? The Masjids are for Allah, and I do not fear entering them to give praise to Allah.

"And who does greater evil than he who bars Allah's places of worship, so that His Name be not rehearsed in them, and strives to destroy them? Such men might never enter them, save in fear; for them is degradation in the present world, and in the world to come a mighty chastisement." Surah 2114

"The places of worship belong to God; so call not, along with God, upon anyone." Surah 7218

When I enter a Masjid and pray according to the revelation, people come up and ask why I am not praying as they pray. Allah provides an opportunity to remind those that believe to serve Allah alone, and follow only what He revealed.

Why are you promoting a place full of pagan practices and symbols? Is this what the god wants us to do?

Ad Hominem.

I am promoting the Truth. Allah is clear in His description.
I am not hiding the Truth, like some insist on doing. They earn their reward. I am clear of what they, and you, do.
I am not seeking to bar men from Masjid Al-Haram nor from performing their Hajj. You are, ayman.

"O believers, profane not Allah's waymarks nor the holy month, neither the offering, nor the necklaces, nor those repairing to the Holy House (albayta alharama) seeking from their Lord bounty and good pleasure. But when you have quit your pilgrim sanctity, then hunt for game. Let not detestation for a people who barred you from the Holy Mosque (almasjidi alharami) move you to commit aggression. Help one another to piety and godfearing; do not help each other to sin and enmity. And fear Allah; surely Allah is terrible in retribution." Surah 52

"Those who conceal what of the Book God has sent down on them, and sell it for a little price - they shall eat naught but the Fire in their bellies; God shall not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection neither purify them; there awaits them a painful chastisement." Surah 2174

Ayman, what did you do for Hajj this year?
Or do you believe Hajj is once-in-a-lifetime, as the polytheists do?

What we are to do for Hajj is detailed in the Quran.
"Fulfil the Pilgrimage and the Visitation unto God; but if you are prevented, then such offering as may be feasible."
This Hajj, I was unable to go to the House and it is not feasible for me to slaughter an animal here in suburban America. (Much less finding livestock I can transport to suburban America.)
Instead I bought meat and prepared a meal for close-friends that I blessed to Allah. I also gave a donation to the local food bank, given in the name of Allah, Beneficent, Merciful. (It is not feasible for me to drop off a side of beef at the local food bank.)

Why feed the needy and contented?

"And the beasts of sacrifice -- We have appointed them for you as among Allah's waymarks (shaAAa-iri Allahi); therein is good for you. So mention Allah's Name over them, standing in ranks then, when their flanks collapse, eat of them and feed the beggar and the suppliant. So We have subjected them to you; haply you will be thankful." Surah 2236

"And shave not your heads, till the offering reaches its place of sacrifice. If any of you is sick, or injured in his head, then redemption by fast, or freewill offering, or ritual sacrifice."
I shaved my head after the meal was provided. If I couldn't shave my head, I would perform expiation according to Allah's revelation. Surah 589

"When you are secure, then whosoever enjoys the Visitation until the Pilgrimage, let his offering be such as may be feasible; or if he finds none, then a fast of three days in the Pilgrimage, and of seven when you return, that is ten completely;"
If a person is able to go on Hajj, they could bring an offering or enough funds to purchase an offering to be sacrificed in the name of Allah. If they could not bring/afford a sacrifice, a fast for 3 days while on Hajj, and 7 days when they return.
With the present state of affairs, where the food is NOT given to the poor or contented, but buried instead, my sacrifice would be rendered as none by the polytheists; a waste of what Allah has give me. I would instead fast for 3 days while on Hajj, and 7 days upon my return, to make 10 complete.

"that is for him whose family are not present at the Holy Mosque."
This is where Allah makes clear who the instructions are for. Those who live in Masjid Al-Haram have their means of subsistence with them, and do not need to bring it long distances to the place of sacrifice The Kaaba. Surah 595-97, 2233

"And fear Allah, and know that Allah is terrible in retribution."
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge, and guide us closer to a right better than where we are now.

"The Pilgrimage is in months well-known;"
Days/Months well known Surah 2197, 936, 2228
Holy months are consecutive Surah 91-5, 936-37
Months of pilgrimage Surah 1062

"whoso undertakes the duty of Pilgrimage in them shall not go in to his womenfolk nor indulge in ungodliness and disputing in the Pilgrimage."
I did not enter into arguments or discussion during my obligations; I avoided the Internet and discussion forums such as this.
I avoided arguing and my wife and I abstained from relations.

"Whatever good you do, Allah knows it. And take provision; but the best provision is godfearing, so fear you Me, men possessed of minds!"
I fear Allah, not man. He is Seer, All Knowing. He knows what is manifest and what is hidden. I will be called to account for all I did, both good and bad.
Insha'Allah, my right-hand book, the book of good deeds, is heavier than my left-hand book. Surah 1771, 5688-91, 7439, 9011-18
"By no means shall you attain to righteousness until you spend out of what you love; and whatever thing you spend, Allah surely knows it." Surah 392

Do good deeds.

Ayman, if you do prepare a feast out of what Allah provided, as way of sacrifice out of what He provided you, do you do so because of the teachings of Yahudians, or because you follow what Allah revealed?
Out of what Allah provides you, do you feed the poor along with those who are provided for?
You don't need to answer me. This is between you and Allah. We are only responsible for ourselves. We will bear no other burden on the Day of Judgment but our own.

Ayman, don't let your hatred of a polytheist people prevent you from fulfilling your service to Allah. Allah is Loving, Forgiving. Surah 8514

"Many of the People of the Book wish they might restore you as unbelievers, after you have believed, in the jealousy of their souls, after the truth has become clear to them; yet do you pardon and be forgiving, till Allah brings His command; truly Allah is powerful over everything." Surah 2109

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
May Allah continue to guide us closer to the Truth.

Peace.

Wakas

peace raginggaijin,

I recommend reviewing the meaning of the term "ad hominen".

raginggaijin

peace raginggaijin,

I recommend reviewing the meaning of the term "ad hominen".

"The servants of the All-merciful are those who walk in the earth modestly and who, when the ignorant address them, say, 'Peace';" Surah 2563

Peace.

ayman

Ad Hominem.

and when they (the hypocrites) speak, you listen to their words as if they (the hypocrites) are (hollow) blocks of timber propped up. They think that every shout is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. May the god destroy them! How are they are perverted! (634)

Peace,

Ayman

raginggaijin

and when they (the hypocrites) speak, you listen to their words as if they (the hypocrites) are (hollow) blocks of timber propped up. They think that every shout is against them. They are the enemies; so beware of them. May the god destroy them! How are they are perverted! (634)

Peace,

Ayman

"And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have made clear with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe." Surah 752

Wait then. I too am waiting patiently. Allah will Judge between us. He is the Best of Judges.

Peace.

ayman

"And certainly We have brought them a Book which We have made clear with knowledge, a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe." Surah 752
Wait then. I too am waiting patiently. Allah will Judge between us. He is the Best of Judges.

And when we assigned to Ibrahim the house's place is that do not partner with me a thing, and cleanse my house for the passers by, and the remaining, and the humbly obeying.

for there are pagans everywhere!

Peace,

Ayman

kgwithnob

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598886.msg249923#msg249923

Peace,
Khalil

raginggaijin

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598886.msg249923#msg249923

Peace,
Khalil

Peace be unto you,

Well written, well said. Thank you for posting your thoughts on that thread.

Peace and blessings.

ayman

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598886.msg249923#msg249923

I read this and it is nothing new. It was nothing but the same old excuses to idolize the filthy pagan stone cube and the Black Stone in Mecca and happily mindlessly spin around them, fondle them and kiss them while wrapped in towels like the pagans.

Peace,

Ayman

raginggaijin

I read this and it is nothing new. It was nothing but the same old excuses to idolize the filthy pagan stone cube and the Black Stone in Mecca and happily mindlessly spin around them, fondle them and kiss them while wrapped in towels like the pagans.

Peace,

Ayman

Show me in this link that you quoted where the writer told anyone to

Idolize a stone cube.
Idolize a black stone.
Mindlessly spin around a cube and/or stone.
'Fondle' (your words) a cube and/or stone.
'Kiss' a cube and/or stone.
Wrap up in towels like a pagan.

Show where he is telling people to act in such a manner or be guilty of slander.

Allah is Seer, All Knowing. You will have to stand before Him on the Day of Judgment. Don't add more burden to your soul.

Peace.

ayman

Show me in this link that you quoted where the writer told anyone to

Idolize a stone cube.
Idolize a black stone.
Mindlessly spin around a cube and/or stone.
'Fondle' (your words) a cube and/or stone.
'Kiss' a cube and/or stone.
Wrap up in towels like a pagan.
Show where he is telling people to act in such a manner or be guilty of slander.
Allah is Seer, All Knowing. You will have to stand before Him on the Day of Judgment. Don't add more burden to your soul.

I said "a filthy pagan stone cube" why did you take "filthy" and "pagan" out? Are you a stone cube lover and Idolator and you don't want to hurt the feelings of your idol? Is the filthy stone cube not filthy from all the fondling and the saliva from kissing? Is this not the truth? You should worry about yourself first before worrying about your pagan friend.

Peace,

Ayman

raginggaijin

I said "a filthy pagan stone cube" why did you take "filthy" and "pagan" out? Are you a stone cube lover and Idolator and you don't want to hurt the feelings of your idol? Is the filthy stone cube not filthy from all the fondling and the saliva from kissing? Is this not the truth? You should worry about yourself first before worrying about your pagan friend.

Peace,

Ayman

So you cannot show where anything of this nature was said and attempt at misdirection. That's your choice, ayman. No one made you do it or say these words that you do.

"Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring forth their spite?
And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of speech; and Allah knows your deeds." Surah 4729-30

You will be called to account for your words and deeds, ayman. Slander is condemned. I have stated repeatedly these pagan acts are condemned and not to be done, and the writer in the link you quoted stated the same thing, even calling those who attend the Masjid to forsake the teachings of their fathers and return to the original deen revealed in the Quran. You attempt a strawman to build up and beat up, but it falls apart when the Truth is made manifest.

?Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it breaks its head, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;? Surah 2118

But upholding teachings other than what Allah revealed is shirk, and will not be forgiven on the Day of Judgment. That includes following teachings like Patricia Crone who attempt to discredit the revelation of Allah Masjid. You cannot say you were not given reminder and warned.

""Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
Have you not considered those who attribute purity to themselves? Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases;
See how they forge the lie against Allah, and this is sufficient as a manifest sin. and they shall not be wronged the husk of a date stone.
Have you not seen those to whom a portion of the Book has been given? They believe in idols and false deities and say of those who disbelieve These are better guided in the path than those who believe." Surah 448-51

I for one fear that great and terrible Day, and strive to uphold the teachings found within the Quran. I believe in it, all of it. Allah has given proofs it comes from Him, and that He kept it pure and protected since its revelation.

"And We indeed have revealed to thee clear messages, and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors." Surah 299

I think you are lost. Surah 17102

"And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell." Surah 4140

We are done here.

Peace.

ayman

I have stated repeatedly these pagan acts are condemned and not to be done, and the writer in the link you quoted stated the same thing.

Then say the truth that the stone cube is filthy from all the saliva of the people kissing it. Acknowledge the truth that it is a "filthy stone cube". Why are you afraid of the truth? Do you consider the truth to be balsphemous against your idol?

Peace,

Ayman

Obour

guys calm down
the Kabbah, the restricted temple, Hajj or even Qiblah is not the pillar of Islam

2177

Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous. 2177

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace all,

Since I am still busy with my study on hajj, I thought I might add a little light heartedness here. It's actually a joke I heard about a Jew praying at the wall the wall in Jerusalem, but I think it can fit the discussion here.

A journalist came to Makkah to interview someone he heard about. This guy had been coming to the kaabah everyday without fail to offer his prayers and make dua. Here is an excerpt from the interview

Journalist How long have you been coming here to pray and make dua facing the kaabah?
Guy 65 years
Journalist What is it you make dua for?
Guy I ask that the Muslim world be united and that there be peace in the Middle East.
Journalist Since neither of these things have happened, how do you feel about these duas you keep making?
Guy It's like talking to a brick wall.

The thing is, this guy kept talking to the brick wall till the day he died.

Imraan

raginggaijin

The thing is, this guy kept talking to the brick wall till the day he died.

He should have spoken to Allah.
Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba. They are different structures.
The command is to face Masjid Al-Haram, not pray to it.

May Allah grant the believers victory over the disbelievers.

Peace.

ayman

Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba. They are different structures.
The command is to face Masjid Al-Haram, not pray to it.

This doesn't make any sense. Acording to your nonsense, since Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba and is a different structure, when you are within Masjid Al-Haram and face Masjid Al-Haram your butt faces the Kaaba.

Peace,

Ayman

raginggaijin

This doesn't make any sense. Acording to your nonsense, since Masjid Al-Haram surrounds the Kaaba and is a different structure, when you are within Masjid Al-Haram and face Masjid Al-Haram your butt faces the Kaaba.

Peace,

Ayman

Nice language. Surah 4729-30
Continued Ad Hominem and Invalidation without bringing proofs. Bring your proof. Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. You state the same argument the followers of hadith uphold.

The Quran is clear

"Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom Allah has guided; but Allah would never leave your faith to waste - truly, Allah is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate." Surah 2143

You made your choice, ayman. Surah 1430

Peace.