Quran Votes for Makkah

rastin

Hello everyone.
I have read some of the materials in this website, and I see there is a debate here around the location of the God's Sacred House (the place where Prophet Ibrahim built The House, Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) lived and the Pilgrimage must take place). I have something about this you may find it interesting

?Our Lord! I have settled part of my descendants in a barren valley by Your Sacred House. (Ibrahim 3
God's Sacred House must have been in a barren valley according to this verse. Makkah is a barren valley indeed, and maybe nothing can describe it better than this term, but what about Jerusalem?

? 7) For the LORD your God brings you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills; A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey; 9) A land wherein you shall eat bread without scarceness, you shall not lack any thing in it; a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills you may dig brass.? (Deuteronomy 87-9)

This is Prophet Moses describing the Promised Land. It doesn't sound like a barren valley, does it?

In (Baqara 196) God speaks about The Pilgrimage and mentions Masjid Al-Haram. From this and other verses (Fath25 , Maaida2 and others) it becomes clear that a place named ?Masjid Al-Haram? as it's meaning suggests (The Sacred Mosque), is the location of God's Sacred House and Pilgrimage. On the other hand for the name ?Masjid Al-Aqsa? as far as I know, no one has suggested a place other than the present site of Masjid Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem. Now let's look at the first verse of Surat Al-Israa

?Glory to God who did take His servant for a journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque.? (Israa 1)

If it wasn't actually a great distance between the two places, it wouldn't be an extraordinary job to take the Prophet(pbuh) from one to another nightly, and therefore it would be meaningless to praise and glorify God for that. So according to this verse, Masjid Al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem) is the Farthest Mosque (a place very far) from the Masjid Al-Haram (the location of Pilgraimage).

?It is He who withheld their hands from you, and your hands from them in the midst of Makkah.? (Fath 24)

The whole Surat Al-Fath is about a peace agreement between the muslim community and its enemies which is celebrated like a great and important victory. In the above verse God identifies the place of agreement as ?Makkah?. Now let's see who these enemies are

? They are the ones who disbelieved and barred your from the Sacred Mosque, and kept the offering from reaching its destination.? (Fath 25)

So these people are the disbelievers who barred muslims from the Sacred Mosque, or in other words they are the inhabitants of the location of the Sacred Mosque. So the inhabitants of the Sacred Mosque (Sacred House) accepted the peace with the Prophet (pbuh) at a place named Makkah.
In previous verses from this Sura we read about those who ?remained? and which ?thought that the Messenger and the believers would never return to their families? (Fath 12). this shows us that the muslims had leaved their city and encountered with disbelievers where the disbelievers were living. So ?Makkah? must be the name of the place where the inhabitants of the Sacred House lived.

According to these, I think we can conclude safely that God's Sacred House and the location of the Pilgrimage, is in a barren valley, far from Jerusalem, named Makkah!

Wakas

peace,

The main problem is the inaccuracy of the translations. If a person looked at the above, then I'm sure they may conclude what you have. That doesn't mean its right however.

rastin

Hi Wakas and thank you. I am a newcomer here and I'm happy you replied to my post.

Translations may differ in the level of their accuracy but the True Meaning usually shows itself from behind the translated words.

For example the first Verse I mentioned above, has been translated also in these ways
YUSUFALI "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House."
PICKTHAL "Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House."
SHAKIR "O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House."

The important phrase here is ( &#1613 which has been translated as a valley without cultivation, an uncultivated valley, and a valley unproductive of fruit. What is the problem here? Isn't it clear what Prophet Ibrahim wants to tell God?
If we say that the translations are all inaccurate, then how can we speak together about Quran and how have you posted more than 7 thousand posts in this forum? Isn't it better then to shut down this and all other english websites related to the Quran?
If we accept your argument my brother, we can reject everything we don't agree with in Quran and simply say the translations are inaccurate.

You saw my post, read it throughly, decided about it and posted your replay, all in two minutes. This is a very important and serious issue which affects the very heart of our Din. We all must be much more cautious and careful about it I think.

Obour

salam rastin

welcome

1-
2226
And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary

I think that God address the Abraham a place out of the city and a place which is no human lived. so as you mention, in (143 refer to this. but it doesnt meant that this place should stay barren for ever (is Makkah a barren valley now?). Abraham pray to God

2126
And Abraham said ?My Lord, make this a land of peace, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever believes in God and the Last Day.? He said ?As for he who rejects, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the Fire. What a miserable destiny!?

also, dont you think that Deuteronomy 87-9 is exaggeration?

2- search for Masjid Al-Aqsa in forum.

3- do you accept the history of Makkah and its conquering?

Obour

I recommend you to read this thread which both opinion discussed very well
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12683.0

(note that the thread is near 4 years ago)

ayman

Peace Rastin,

First, welcome to the forum.

Translations may differ in the level of their accuracy but the True Meaning usually shows itself from behind the translated words.
For example the first Verse I mentioned above, has been translated also in these ways
YUSUFALI "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House."
PICKTHAL "Our Lord! Lo! I have settled some of my posterity in an uncultivable valley near unto Thy holy House."
SHAKIR "O our Lord! surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruit near Thy Sacred House."
The important phrase here is ( &#1613 which has been translated as a valley without cultivation, an uncultivated valley, and a valley unproductive of fruit. What is the problem here?

The problem is that Pickthal and Shakir's translations are false. The term ZR3 (&#1613 in Arabic means human cultivation. So it is a valley without human cultivation but had naturally occuring plants, otherwise the god would have said barren or uncultivable or unproductive of fruit as Pickthal and Shakir said.

So it is impossible for this location to be Mekka or any barren place. Only Yusufali translated correctly, unfortunately he failed to see the huge implication of his correct translation.

Peace,

Ayman

Wakas

peace Rastin,

If we accept your argument my brother, we can reject everything we don't agree with in Quran and simply say the translations are inaccurate.

Wrong. We can use multiple methods of checking the accuracy of a translation, e.g. see http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

I never realised you were new to the forum. This topic has been discussed in perhaps over a hundred pages on this forum. I will take your first verse as an example, using the free-minds translation (except with 'communion' taken out for salat/bond)

1437 "Our Lord, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley near your Sacred Dwelling. My Lord, so that they may uphold the bond/salat. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks."

near = Arabic word "inda" and is crucial to the this verse's understanding, and The Quran's usage points to it meaning "with" (implying an association). See 97 for suspect translation.
Sacred Dwelling = in other parts of The Quran, a physical building does not fit, however a structure does fit, and that is deen, and could be translated as inviolable/restricted house, if one understands the rest of its usage.
so that = the verses tells us why Abraham did such a thing, now re-read the verse.
people = why does The Quran use the inclusive term of mankind and not Muslims or believers etc. This is used throughout, i.e. not like today where restrictions are in place.

Of course, there is a problem in the sequential and detailing of Abraham's story in The Quran compared to the traditional story, but I have not studied this in detail. To see my preliminary findings, see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601181.0

Mazhar

The important phrase here is ( &#1613 which has been translated as a valley without cultivation, an uncultivated valley, and a valley unproductive of fruit. What is the problem here? Isn't it clear what Prophet Ibrahim wants to tell God?

Exactly there is no problem if one restricts to the words before us. here is in genitive case as the peculiarity of and is first noun of possessive phrase, meaning other than/opposite of second construct holder/possessor which again is first noun of possessive phrase, the second noun being crop cultivation. A valley which is other than a valley that is the holder/possessor of crop cultivation.

rastin

Hello brothers and excuse me for being late.

I'd like to share with you what I found in Quran after I prayed and asked God to show me the truth. We won't need discussing other things after this, InshaAllah.

As you know, when Israelites entered the Promised Land it became their home and they lived there for centuries, until the year 70(CE) when Romans occupied Jerusalem. It means that all the prophets of Bani Israel, after Moses and including Jesus, came to them in a period which they lived there.
Quran extensively speaks about this important piece of history, describing the people, prophets and events. It covers every aspects of their life which has been somehow related to the faith or prophets or God's commands and words. How many times do you think God has mentioned His ?Sacred House? in those Verses? Never.

Quran tells us stories about the life of Prophets who lived there. About David, Solomon, Zacharias, John the Baptist, Elias, Elisha and of course Jesus. It also speaks about Saul and Goliath, the Sabbath-Breakers, Mary, Imran, Disciples of Jesus and even Mary's mother. In none of the Verses related to them we see God's Sacred House.

The Verses which are related to the Promised Land and people and prophets who lived there, and those that the God's Sacred House has been mentioned in, are two absolutely separate groups of Verses having not a single thing to do with each other.

But the life of a prophet has everything to do with the God's House. Great prophets one after another lived in that area through the centuries. If the God's House was there, Quran would certainly have something to tell us about it; A prophet praying or preaching by the House, someone sacrificing there, someone repairing the House or hosting the Pilgrims or any other notable thing. No doubt we must have seen something in Quran, if they had lived by the House.

These words in Quran refer to the God's Sacred House. We have (Masjid Al-Haram) 15 times, (Bait) 13 times, (Balad) 4 times, (Bait Al-Atiq), (Ka'bah) and (Omm Al-Qura) 2 times and (Bait Al-Ma'moor), (Bait Al-Haram), (Bakkah) and (Balad Al-Amin) each 1 time; 11 of these Verses are about the time of Prophet Ibrahim, and the other 31 are related to the time of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).
As you can see almost all the prophets are absent here. All of them except the Ibrahim, Ismael and Muhammad(pbuh). Can you see that the God's House has been in a remote land, away from the life of prophets?

God knows everything about everything and we know nothing except what He has allowed us to know. So let's pray together and ask God to show us the truth. Let's pray and say ?Ya Rabb! We want to know the truth about our Din, we want to know what is exactly the true religion You chose for us and ordered us to follow. But our knowledge is limited and we are often misguided by our ignorance and obstinacy. So Ya Rabb! Please soften our hearts toward the truth and place us among the guided ones.? Amin.

mmkhan

Salaam,

In (Baqara 196) God speaks about The Pilgrimage and mentions Masjid Al-Haram. From this and other verses (Fath25 , Maaida2 and others) it becomes clear that a place named ?Masjid Al-Haram? as it's meaning suggests (The Sacred Mosque), is the location of God's Sacred House and Pilgrimage. On the other hand for the name ?Masjid Al-Aqsa? as far as I know, no one has suggested a place other than the present site of Masjid Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem.

Allah's aayaats are absolutely clear. But in the above quoted aayat IF 'AlMasjid-AlHaraam' is used that does not mean they are in relation, as there are other words also used in the same aayat 2196

'AlMasjid-AlHaraam'
'Siyaam' ,
'AlHadya' ,
'Ra'sih' ,
'Sadaqaa' .

This does not mean that these words are always in relation with AlHajj.

And, if you look closely into 2196, the topic of AlHajj does not show any relation with 'AlMasjid-AlHaraam' but it is talking about the people of AlMasjid-AlHaraam.

Hope this clarifies to some extent, inshaAllah.

Regards,
Mohammed M. Khan

afridi220

Early history

Ptolemy may have called the city "Macoraba", though this identification is controversial. Archaeology found no inscriptions or mentionings of Mecca from before that time, although other cities and kingdoms in that region are well documented in historical records.

Around the 5th century CE, the Kaaba was a place of worship for the deities of Arabia's pagan tribes. Mecca's most important pagan deity was Hubal, which had been placed there by the ruling Quraysh tribe and remained until the 7th century CE.

In the 5th century, the Quraysh took control of Mecca, and became skilled merchants and traders. In the 6th century they joined the lucrative spice trade as well, since battles in other parts of the world were causing trade routes to divert from the dangerous sea routes to the more secure overland routes. The Byzantine Empire had previously controlled the Red Sea, but piracy had been on the increase. Another previous route, that from the Persian Gulf via the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, was also being threatened by exploitation from the Sassanid Empire, as well as being disrupted by the Lakhmids, the Ghassanids, and the Roman?Persian Wars. Mecca's prominence as a trading center surpassed the cities of Petra and Palmyra.

1787 Turkish artwork of the Masjid al-Haram and related religious sites (Jabal al-Nour)By the middle of the 6th century, there were three major settlements in northern Arabia, all along the south-western coast that borders the Red Sea, in a habitable region between the sea and the great desert to the east. This area, known as the Hejaz, featured three settlements grown around oases, where water was available. In the center of the Hijaz was Yathrib, later renamed Medina, from "Madinatun Nabi," or "City of the Prophet." 250 mi (400 km) south of Yathrib was the mountain city Ta?if, north-west of which lay Mecca. Although the area around Mecca was completely barren, it was the wealthiest of the three settlements with abundant water via the renowned Zamzam Well and a position at the crossroads of major caravan routes.

The harsh conditions and terrain of the Arabian peninsula meant a near-constant state of conflict between the local tribes, but once a year they would declare a truce and converge upon Mecca in an annual pilgrimage. Up to the 7th century, this journey was intended for religious reasons by the pagan Arabs to pay homage to their shrine, and to drink from the Zamzam Well. However, it was also the time each year that disputes would be arbitrated, debts would be resolved, and trading would occur at Meccan fairs. These annual events gave the tribes a sense of common identity and made Mecca an important focus for the peninsula.

Camel caravans, said to have first been used by Muhammad's great-grandfather, were a major part of Mecca's bustling economy. Alliances were struck between the merchants in Mecca and the local nomadic tribes, who would bring goods ? leather, livestock, and metals mined in the local mountains ? to Mecca to be loaded on the caravans and carried to cities in Syria and Iraq. Historical accounts also provide some indication that goods from other continents may also have flowed through Mecca. Goods from Africa and the Far East passed through on route to Syria including spices, leather, medicine, cloth, and slaves; in return Mecca received money, weapons, cereals and wine, which in turn were distributed throughout Arabia. The Meccans signed treaties with both the Byzantines and the Bedouins, and negotiated safe passages for caravans, giving them water and pasture rights. Mecca became the center of a loose confederation of client tribes, which included those of the Banu Tamim. Other regional powers such as the Abyssinian, Ghassan, and Lakhm were in decline leaving Meccan trade to be the primary binding force in Arabia in the late 6th century.

mmkhan

Salaamun all,

Just now I found something interesting on net, so thought of sharing it here... .

The Bible also mentions about the valley of Baca in connection with the pilgrimage. Below is the quote from Psalms 84 (NIV)

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God.
3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God.
4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

The interpretation of the valley of Baca in the The Jewish Encylopedia is quite interesting, though it does not provide a complete evidence and leaves the reader with a suggestion. Below is the full quote.

Baca, The Valley Of A valley mentioned in Psalms LXXXIV7. Since it is there said that pilgrims transform the valley into a land of wells, an old translators gave to Baca, the meaning of a "valley of weeping"; but it signifies rather any valley lacking water. Support for this latter view is to be found in II Samuel V23 et seq.; I Chronicles XIV14 et seq., in which the plural form of the same word designates a tree similar to the balsam tree; and it was supposed that a dry valley could be named after this tree. Konig takes Baca from the Arabian Baka'a, and translates it "lack of streams". The Psalmist apparently has in mind a particular valley whose natural condition led him to adopt its name.

The Anchor Bible Dictionary does not throw any light on it, albeit, there are some suggestions in it too like the The Jewish Encylopedia. Below is the full quote.

Baca, The Valley Of (PLACE) , The valley of Baca (Psalms 841) is either a historical place name or a symbolical expression for "deep sorrow". The first part of Psalms 846 seems to mean that by "passing through the experience of deep sorrow, righteous ones can make it the source of life." The Septuagint translated the phrase into Greek as "the valley of weeping". The word 'emeq "valley" has the root meaning of "deep", so the expression may mean "deep sorrow".

However, some have considered it as the "valley of the balsam tree" from the same word in plural form found in 2 Samuel 524. This is based on the assumption that baka may be a "gum-exuding tree". Another possibility is that the word beka'im (plural of baka) may mean "weeping wall-rocks" in the valley of Rephaim on whose tops David and his troops were waiting for the coming of the Philistine army passing through the valley below (2 Samuel 524). It seems safe to seek the meaning of baka in relation to the dripping water, since we often find this word in the names related to rivers and wadis, such as Wadi al-Baka in the Sinaitic district and Baca on the wadi in the central Galilee area, W of Meroth. It is also possible to understand beka'im as the place of "weepings" of the Philistine army for their defeat by David. After all these considerations, the expression of "valley of baka" can best be taken as a symbolic expression "weeping" or "deep sorrow" which fits well in the context of Psalms 846.

The interpretation of the valley of Baca as a "the valley of weeping" makes sense because of the distress which Hagar(P) underwent when she was left with Ishmael(P) in the barren desert with no means of living.

For further details you can visit http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

Mohammed M. Khan

mmkhan

Salaamun all,

Another finding....

Arguments against the identification of Baca with Mecca

The verse that immediately follows, the proof-texted verse that provides the basis of this article's presumption, pins the location of the pilgrimage to which Psalm 84 verse 7 refers.
Zion, the name of the easternmost hill of ancient Jerusalem, is mentioned 153 times in the King James Version of the Bible. Jewish scriptures apply the term "Mount Zion" to the Temple Mount or the City of David, both located on this elevation. For Jews the term "Zion" became a synecdoche referring to the entire city of Jerusalem and the Land of Israel. Thus this passage describes a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in the Holy Land rather than one to Mecca
There is no historical or archaeological record of the Jews to whom this passage refers, going on pilgrimage to any temple, other than the one they themselves built in Jerusalem.
Zion - that is Jerusalem - lies 1,200 km (750 mi) across the Arabian Desert from Mecca.
There is no historical record penned before the 4th century AD, that suggests that Mecca ever existed before that time, while other ancient Arabian towns are well attested in the historical record.
There is no archaeological record that suggests that Mecca ever existed before the 4th century AD, while other ancient Arabian towns are well attested, in the archaeological record.
There is no pre-4th century historical or archaeological record that suggests that the Kaaba existed before the early 5th century AD.
Pilgrimages to Zion - to Jerusalem - to the Holy Land - were conducted during the First Temple Period, 1,300 years before Mecca was established, and still are today.
Baca is a Hebrew name that dates to before 1,000 B.C. of a valley in Palestine, and is also a Hebrew term for balsam or mulberry trees that "weep" or bleed sap when they are cut. Bakkah is a more modern language 7th century A.D. Quraysh Arabic dialect name that some suggest refers to Mecca.

For more info, please visit http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah

May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.

Mohammed M. Khan

Obour

I asked about history of Makkah because what I see in the verses is completely different from its history report.
let me explain they say that Makkian was idol worshipper and Kabbah was full of idols. Makkian don't accept Islam at first place and force prophet to leave his town. he went to Yasreb and some years later he gain power and came back to Makkah, conquer it without any conflict and destroy all of Idols in Kabbah.
but if we accept this official report then some serious problems arise with understanding of these verses

4824 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and believing women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have incurred a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whoever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those from them who rejected with a painful retribution.

now we should ask some questions according to these verses
1- why and how could prophet sent his donation to the idols and Idols worshippers? note that sending was every year and before conquering Makkah.
2- why Makkian would barred Mumeen's donation from reaching to Restricted Temple, if it was in Makkah? who hate donations even if it's been from his worse enemy?
3- why we hear in Quran about Abraham destroying Idols but there is no mentioned about prophet do the same thing, If it is really happened?
4- Makkah wasn't conquered without any conflict because 4824-25 clearly says God stopped Muslims to destroy the whole city and kill every one because there was some Mumeen (believing men) in the city. note that the battle is not outside of the city and between two armies. there was civilians (men and women) who may hurt so God stop the bloodshed.

so, as you see the history that they told us is not match with the Quran, how can we be sure that the Makkah in these verses is the Known Makkah of Arabia?

hafeez_kazi

Did Prophet Muhammad MIGRATED from MECCA ?

DISBELIEVERS ATTEMPTS TO DRIVE OUT THE PROPHET

And (remember) when the disbelievers plotted against you (O Muhammad SAW) to imprison you, or to kill you, or to GET YOU OUT (from your home, i.e. Makkah); they were plotting and Allah too was planning, and Allah is the Best of the planners. 830

And Verily, they were about to frighten you so much as to DRIVE YOU OUT FROM THE LAND. But in that case THEY WOULD NOT HAVE STAYED (therein) AFTER YOU, except for a LITTLE WHILE. (This was Our) SUNNAH (rule or way) with the Messengers We sent before you (O Muhammad SAW), and YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY ALTERATION IN OUR SUNNAH (rule or way, etc.). 1776/77

This was not the first time that the pagans tried to drive out the prophet from Mecca but they tried many times and finally they succeeded in their mission. The planning of the pagans was round the clock and thus the prophet was forced to leave Mecca and lead to TAIF and then to MADINA as a refugee

THE WAYS (SUNNAH) OF ALLAH

They swore their strongest oaths by Allah that if a warner came to them they would follow his guidance better than any (other) of the Peoples but when a warner came to them it has only increased their flight (from righteousness) On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil. But the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the (SUNNAH) WAY OF THE ANCIENTS were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in ALLAHS WAY (SUNNAH) (of dealing) NO TURNING OFF WILL YOU FIND IN ALLAHS WAY (SUNNAH) (of dealing). 3542/43

And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Qur'an) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the WAYS OF THE ANCIENTS be repeated with them (i.e. their DESTRUCTION decreed by Allah), or the TORMENT be brought to them face to face? 1855

THE NEWS OF DESTRUCTION WILL COME

And never a sign comes to them from the signs of their Lord, but that they have been turning away from it. Indeed, they belied the truth when it came to them, but WILL COME TO THEM THE NEWS of that (the torment) which they used to mock at. 64/5

THE TERM IS DETERMINED

Hath it not served as guidance to them how many a generation We have destroyed before them, amidst whose dwellings they Walk! Verily therein are signs for men of sagacity. And had it not been for a Word that went forth before from your Lord, and a TERM DETERMINED (their punishment) must necessarily have come (in this world). 20128/129

TORMENT WILL CERTAINLY COME AND SUDDENLY

And they ask you to hasten on the torment (for them), and had it not been for a TERM APPOINTED, the TORMENT would CERTAINLY have come to them. And CERTAINLY, IT WILL COME UPON THEM SUDDENLY while they perceive not! 2953

GENERATIONS DESTROYED BEFORE FOR NOT BELIEVING IN MESSENGERS

And indeed, We DESTROYED GENERATIONS before you, when they did wrong while their MESSENGERS came to them with clear proofs, but they were not such as to BELIEVE! Thus do We requite the people who are SINNERS. Then We appointed YOU as SUCCESSORS in the land AFTER THEM, that We might see how ye would work. 1013/14

Like the behaviour of the people of PHARAOH and those before them; THEY BELIED OUR SIGNS, so Allah seized (destroyed) them for their sins. And Allah is Severe in punishment. 311

Then THEY BELIED him (NOAH) there upon We delivered him and those with him in the ARK, and drowned those who BELIED Our signs; verily they were a people blind. 764

Then We delivered him (HUD) and those with him by a mercy from Us, and We utterly cut off those who BELIED Our signs, and would not be believers. 772

Those WHO BELIED SHUAIB became as though they had never dwelt therein; those who belied Shu'aib, it is they who became the losers. 792

And if they belie thee, then surely there have belied before them the people of Nuh and the 'Aad and the Thamud. And the people of Ibrahim and the people of Lut. And the Companions of the Madyan people and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers and (only) after that did I PUNISH THEM but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! 2242/43/44

Before them there have BELIED the people of Nuh and the 'Aad, and Fir'awn the owner of the stakes. And Thamud and the People of Lut and the Companions of the Wood; such were the Confederates. Not one of them but BELIED the Messengers, therefore My TORMENT WAS JUSTIFIED, 3812/13/14

But (there were people) before them who BELIED (the Signs) the People of Noah and the confederates (of Evil) after them; and every People plotted against their prophet to seize him and disputed by means of vanities therewith to condemn the truth; BUT IT WAS I THAT SEIZED THEM! And how (terrible) was My Requital! 405

And before them the people of Nuh BELIED, and so did the dwellers Of Rass and the Thamud. And the A-ad, and Fir'awn. and the brethren of Lut. The companions of the Wood and the people of Tubba; each one (of them) BELIED the apostles and MY WARNING WAS DULY FULFILLED (in them). 5012/13/14

Those before them BELIED, and so the TORMENT CAME ON THEM from directions they perceived not. 3925

SUMMARY

The Meccans declare they will not BELIEVE
Allah declares the Meccans will not BELIEVE
Allah declares the Meccans will not BELIEVE (Quran) until they SEE the PENALTY
And SOON they shall KNOW
The Meccans disbelieve and DRIVE OUT THE PROPHET
The SUNNAH of Allah If they drive out the prophet, then they will STAY ONLY A LITTLE
The SUNNAH never CHANGES
No TURNING off from the SUNNAH
The news of TORMENT is NEAR
The term is DETERMINED
The TORMENT will come CERTAINLY and SUDDENLY
Generations DESTROYED before, for the SAME SIN as of Meccans

In the light of the above verses the SUNNAH OF DESTRUCTION was applicable to MECCA for they disbelieved in everything and drove out the prophet from his home.

Then why Allah did not DESTROY the Meccans?

Because the prophet never migrated from MECCA but from MADYAN (JORDAN)

We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations (to give) Insight to men and Guidance and Mercy that they might receive admonition. YOU WERE NOT on the WESTERN SIDE when We DECREED THE COMMISSION TO MOSES nor WERE YOU WITNESS (of those events). But We RAISED up (new) generations and long were the ages that PASSED OVER THEM; but YOU WERE NOT A DWELLER among the PEOPLE OF MADYAN RECITING OUR SIGNS TO THEM but it is We Who send apostles (with inspiration). Nor WERE YOU AT THE SIDE OF (the Mountain of) TUR when We called (to Moses) But (art thou sent) as a Mercy from thy Lord to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee in order that THEY MAY receive admonition. And lest, if an affliction had afflicted THEM for that which THEIR hands had sent before, THEY should have said our Lord! wherefore sent not Thou an apostle unto US that WE might have followed Thy revelations and been of the believers! But when the truth is come unto THEM from before Us, THEY say wherefore hast he not been vouchsafed the like of that which was given unto Musa? DISBELIEVED THEY NOT IN THAT WHICH WAS GIVEN UNTO MUSA AFORETIME? They say; TWO MAGICS supporting each other. And they say verily in all such things we are disbelievers. Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah which is a better Guide than either of them that I may follow it! (Do) if ye are truthful!" 2843/44/45/46/47/48/49 (REVEALED IN MECCA)

PONDER ON THE ABOVE VERSES, WHICH ARE REVEALED IN THE CONTEXT OF THE PEOPLE OF MADYAN, THE CITY OF SHUAIB DESTROYED BY ALLAH AND NEW GENERATIONS WERE RAISED. THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO DISBELIEVED IN TORAH AFORETIME.

WHO CAME TO THE FORE FATHERS OF THE PEOPLE OF MECCAH WITH THE TORAH SO THAT THEY DISBELIEVED IN IT?

SUPPLEMENTARY VERSES IN SUPPORT OF THE ABOVE VERSES

And indeed We have DESTROYED what is AROUND YOU of the towns and We DISPLAYED the SIGNS that they might return 4627

And 'Ad and Thamud (people)! And INDEED (their destruction) is clearly APPARENT TO YOU from their (ruined) DWELLINGS. Satan made their deeds seem fair unto them and so debarred them from the Way, though they were keen observers. 2938

Generations before YOU We DESTROYED when they did wrong their Apostles came to them with Clear Signs but they would not believe! Thus do We requite those who sin! Then WE MADE YOU (KHALAA'IF) successors in the land AFTER THEM to see how ye would behave! 1013/14

IS it not GUIDANCE to THOSE who INHERIT the land AFTER its PEOPLE, that had We willed, We would have PUNISHED them for their sins. But We seal up their hearts so that they hear not? 7100

(A- FA- LAM YAHDI LA- -HUM) Is it not GUIDANCE for THEM how many generations We have DESTROYED before THEM, in WHOSE DWELLINGS THEY WALK? Certainly, in this are signs for men who have intelligence. 20128

('A- WA- LAM YAHDI LA- -HUM) Is it not GUIDANCE for THEM, how many generations We have DESTROYED before THEM in WHOSE DWELLINGS THEY WALK? Certainly, therein indeed are signs. Would they not then listen? '(A- WA- LAM YARAW) Have they not seen how We drive water (rain clouds) to the dry land without any vegetation, and therewith bring forth crops providing food for their cattle and themselves? Will they not then see? 3226/27

And warn (O Muhammad SAW) mankind of the Day when the torment will come unto them; then the wrong-doers will say "Our Lord! Respite us for a little while, we will answer Your Call and follow the Messengers!" (It will be said) "Had you not sworn afore time that you would suffer no decline "And YOU DWELL IN THE DWELLINGS OF MEN who WRONGED THEMSELVES, and SHOWN TO YOU clearly how WE HAD DEALT WITH THEM. And We put forth (many) parables for you." 1444/45

THEN SEE how was the end of their plot! Verily! We destroyed them and their nation, all together. THESE ARE THEIR HOUSES in UTTER RUIN, for they did WRONG. Verily IN THIS is indeed an Ayah (a lesson or a sign) for people who know. 2752

So also was Lut among those sent (by us). Behold We delivered him and his adherents all Except an old woman who was among those who lagged behind Then We destroyed the rest. And truly ye CERTAINLY PASS BY (the ruin of) THEM in the MORNING and at NIGHT will you not understand? 37133/134/135/136/137138

And INDEED THEY have PASSED BY THE TOWN on which was rained the evil rain. DID THEY (disbelievers) NOT THEN SEE IT (with their own eyes)? Nay! But they used not to expect for any resurrection. and when THEY see you (O Muhammad SAW), they treat you only as a mockery (saying)"Is this the one whom Allah has sent as a Messenger? 2540

Never did We DESTROY a population, but had its WARNERS 26208

THE UNTRODDEN LAND OF (MECCA)

And He caused you to INHERIT THEIR LANDS, and their HOUSES, and their RICHES, and a LAND, which YOU had NOT TRODDEN it. And Allah is Able to do all things. 3327

Thanks

unknownuser

Peace Obour

Good post. If you are doing a research on this issue, let us know what you find (if you find more information).

In the meanwhile, I recommend this article

http//www.aididsafar.com/shaivite.html

rastin

Hi Obour

1- why and how could prophet sent his donation to the idols and Idols worshippers? note that sending was every year and before conquering Makkah.
2- why Makkian would barred Mumeen's donation from reaching to Restricted Temple, if it was in Makkah? who hate donations even if it's been from his worse enemy?
3- why we hear in Quran about Abraham destroying Idols but there is no mentioned about prophet do the same thing, If it is really happened?
4- Makkah wasn't conquered without any conflict because 4824-25 clearly says God stopped Muslims to destroy the whole city and kill every one because there was some Mumeen (believing men) in the city. note that the battle is not outside of the city and between two armies. there was civilians (men and women) who may hurt so God stop the bloodshed.

Prophet did not send offerings for idols and idol worshipers. Do the people today sacrifice animals in Hajj for Saudi Kings or anyone else? Of course not, it is - and has always been - for God.
And it wasn't every year. Muslims went on Pilgrimages only two times before the Conquest of Makkah, the years 6 and 7 after Migration.
The situation for unbelievers was far more serious than what we may think. Their beliefs, their way of life, their values and ethics, the power relations, the economical matters and in one word their whole world had been sentenced to change. A few hundred camels does not seem to be very important in that context, and I don't know if the sacrifices were ever being distributed among unbelievers.
Maybe because the incident at the time of Prophet Ibrahim has been more important, I don't know.
I didn't find ?destroying the whole city? and ?killing everyone? in those verses and didn't get what you want to say here, but there is something about this Sura which may help; It is believed and widely accepted that Surat Al-Fath was sent down after what is known in history as ?The Truce of Hudaybiyah?, 2 years before the Conquest of Makkah.

rastin

The phrase ?valley of baca? in Psalms 84 has been translated and understood in a few ways. For example let's see this page (http//bible.cc/psalms/84-6.htm) which has 15 parallel translations. As you can see only 7 have kept the original word ?baca? in their translations, which means that the majority of them don't read the word as a proper noun referring to a real place. 5 of them has translated the phrase as ?valley of weeping?, 2 as ?valley of balsam-trees? and "a valley where balsam trees grow" and one as ?vale of tears?. There are also other translations like ?vale of misery? in Coverdale Bible which is ?the first complete Modern English translation of the Bible ... and the first complete printed translation into English? according to wikipedia (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverdale_Bible).

Now let's see what is the Psalms itself

?The title of this book in the Hebrew Bible is Tehillim, which means praise songs.The
title adopted by the Septuagint translators for their Greek version was Psalmoi meaning
songs to the accompaniment of a stringed instrument.? (Notes on Psalms Dr. Thomas L. Constable )
Wikipedia also introduces the Psalms as a book of ?Sacred Poems?.(http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms). Answer.com says it is a collection of 150 hymnic pieces.(http//wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_Psalms)

So we have Songs and Poems and Hymns here. And language is Allegorical very often in such contexts (http//www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-Baca.html). If we read the passage with this in mind and translate ?baca? to something like ?weeping?, we will have a more beautiful and ?poetic? meaning for it. It says that the Blessings of God and the True Happiness is obtained after withstanding the miseries and weepings. For a more complete interpretation you can see the book (Called to Battle Destined to Win by Jerry Savelle, page 194) from google books or this summary from scribd (http//www.scribd.com/doc/2172047/The-Valley-of-Baca)

This is my advice after all Forget about this ?baca? for it won't get us closer to truth. Open your Quran instead, and try to find something related to the ?Bait? built by Prophet Ibrahim in the life of the Israelites and their prophets. The people who lived in Jerusalem and its surrounding more than 13 centuries and Quran has offered a great deal of information about them.

Obour

Hi Obour

Prophet did not send offerings for idols and idol worshipers. Do the people today sacrifice animals in Hajj for Saudi Kings or anyone else? Of course not, it is - and has always been - for God.
And it wasn't every year. Muslims went on Pilgrimages only two times before the Conquest of Makkah, the years 6 and 7 after Migration.
The situation for unbelievers was far more serious than what we may think. Their beliefs, their way of life, their values and ethics, the power relations, the economical matters and in one word their whole world had been sentenced to change. A few hundred camels does not seem to be very important in that context, and I don't know if the sacrifices were ever being distributed among unbelievers.
Maybe because the incident at the time of Prophet Ibrahim has been more important, I don't know.
I didn't find ?destroying the whole city? and ?killing everyone? in those verses and didn't get what you want to say here, but there is something about this Sura which may help; It is believed and widely accepted that Surat Al-Fath was sent down after what is known in history as ?The Truce of Hudaybiyah?, 2 years before the Conquest of Makkah.

Peace

1- If we accept the historical view about Mecca then we have to accept that prophet sent offerings for idols and idol worshippers. If Mecca was a God alone place and not under the pagans why the prophet had to conquer it? If there was idols then definitely the Meccans sacrifice animals for gods other than God, am I not right? how could prophet send them offerings?
If today Meccans don't sacrifice animals for saudi kings or anyone else, its okay to send offerings to them but what about if they do? do you send offerings to them?
how could you be sure that prophet and Muslims went on pilgrimages only two times before conquest of Mecca? and does it change the subject?
2- maybe
3- I think destroying idols in God house was worse to mention in the Quran if it was really happened. but its just my opinion and God is knowledgeable. my point here its not a good one.
4- we don't talk about the whole Surat but 4824-25, which clearly mention Mecca. If it is believed and widely accepted that Surat Al-Fath was sent down after what is known in history as ?The Truce of Hudaybiyah?, 2 years before the Conquest of Mecca then it is obviously wrong and we should reject such believe because in this Surat we read
4824 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in the interior of Mecca, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
4825 They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and believing women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have incurred a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whoever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those from them who rejected with a painful retribution.

the conflict was not outside the city and not just between two armies. there was believers civilians (men and women) and because of these God stopped the conflict (maybe through a treaty) Had they become separated, We would then have punished those from them who rejected with a painful retribution.
this conflict might not include the whole city and everyone but it did happen in the interior of city and included some part of it.
the point is history doesn't report such a conflict and therefore our historical view is not in line with these verses.

rastin

Prophet didn't send the offerings to Makkah, he and other muslims in that caravan took the camels with them to Makkah and when got there they themselves sacrificed those animals and not the Meccans.