Same sex relationships/ marriages
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Thanks for that tip on how to write long posts. I am not very proficient with computers, I have a lot of learning to do.
Ok, if its not OK for a men then I think that it is nok ok for women to be with women because God created Adam and Eve, a male and a female.
I just have one problem Leyna, my best friend who listed me as brother on face book(and I listed him as brother) is gay and hapily maried to a bloke. He lives in Spain. I live in Australia.
I love him as a brother and because I know he is a very good person I can't say that he is doing any harm to anyone.
So I would apreceate if someone who thinks its OK explain to me why is it OK. My reason tels me its OK, so my personal feelings are not in line with the Qur'an. I wish I could find some midle ground!!!
Thanks
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So I would apreceate if someone who thinks its OK explain to me why is it OK. My reason tels me its OK, so my personal feelings are not in line with the Qur'an. I wish I could find some midle ground!!!
Pel, nobody can tell you what to think. I suggest you use the search function; I remember seeing various long threads about this issue on here.
My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong with being gay or Lesbian; homosexual people are not hurting anyone, obviously God created them this way and that's proof enough for me. I find the homophobia which is so widespread among Muslims very frightening.
There is an openly gay Muslim scholar who says that homosexuality is not forbidden, maybe some of his ideas might interest you
Gay Muslim Scholar Shunned by the Faithful
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peace Pel,
What a person thinks of bad and good can be subjective, so I prefer to stick to what Al Quran says.
From my studies of AQ, marriage is not possible between the same sex. Sexual/lewd acts committed by anyone are potentially punishable, if society governed by AQ. So if a person commits homosexual acts, then if done in private, no earthly punishment, but likely in the next life*. To be sure of no punishment, they'd have to remain celibate etc in my opinion.
*just like heterosexual acts between unmarried done in private.
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Thanks Wakas, I supose that thats a prety honest and straight forward post. Sometimes you just can't go around and ignore the Quran in order to make it suit ourselves or the world as it is.
Thanks
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From my studies of AQ, marriage is not possible between the same sex. Sexual/lewd acts committed by anyone are potentially punishable, if society governed by AQ. So if a person commits homosexual acts, then if done in private, no earthly punishment, but likely in the next life*. To be sure of no punishment, they'd have to remain celibate etc in my opinion.
*just like heterosexual acts between unmarried done in private.
That's exactly what I think too.
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My personal opinion is that there is nothing wrong with being gay or Lesbian; homosexual people are not hurting anyone, obviously God created them this way and that's proof enough for me. I find the homophobia which is so widespread among Muslims very frightening.
Peace,
Respect.I disagree, sister.
I think there is something wrong but I got nothing against them, I believe they are people like all other people, it's just that something went wrong in their brains and I say this with all due Respect towards them, I'm not being rude here. This is an illness and not something they were born with.I don't think God created them to be homosexual and then at the same time also gave humans this Book where He says this needs to be done with those who commit lewdness. It makes no sense. And I say this with all due Respect towards everyone.
I believe that homosexuals should re-consider what they are doing, what they believe, what they are thinking, how and where is this leading them.
They should ponder over their actions.
God knows best.I'll write some more on this issue later, God willing.
Peace.
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This is an illness and not something they were born with.
If it was an illness it would be "curable". So far, no "cure" has ever been found, although ? as I'm sure you are aware ? there have been countless attempts.
I believe that homosexuals should re-consider what they are doing, what they believe, what they are thinking, how and where is this leading them.
They should ponder over their actions.And what makes you assume they don't?
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Peace all
The quran supersedes personal opinions. So when it comes to Quranic topics, we should use the Quran to back up our statements. Besides, I believe it is not natural for two persons of the same sex to become intimate with eachother.
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peace all,
The Quran is very practical, in fact, from my studies, it is surprisingly so. Anyways, I would like to discuss a little more on what I said earlier, to possibly demonstrate the remarkableness of The Quran's wisdom, in my opinion.
Under a Quranic system...
Let's say a person is homosexual, and if they believe in God, and more specifically The Quran, then lets say they could interpret it in two ways
- it does not allow homosexual acts
- it does allow homosexual acts
So lets say they interpret it as (1), then they can remain celibate. They could theoretically still live with a homosexual partner, still love them, but not participate in homosexual acts. Quite a test, but not unbearable.
Lets say they interpret it as (2) then they can get married and participate in homosexual acts (in private) if they wish, and there is no earthly punishment (i.e. no witnesses). In order to arrive at a true interpretation of The Quran one must be sincere and unbiased, thus if they are correct in their interpretation, great, it shows they were pure of heart etc but if they interpreted it the way they did to follow desires etc then they were impure in regard to this point and the scales will be weighed and will be judged accordingly.
And if a person does not believe in The Quran, then they do not care what it says, thus could do as they wish in private, just like anyone, and they will be judged accordingly. Not that I think The Quran is a requirement for salvation, but I am referring to a Quranic system for a society.
So, as we can see, if the above people are living under a society governed by The Quran and the society deems homosexual marriage and thus also homosexual acts are not allowed, but homosexuals interpret it differently, then they can do as they wish in private. If they agree, they remain celibate. And if they do not believe in The Quran to begin with, they can still do as they wish in private.
In other words, the unity, happiness, justice and betterment of society is optimised and maintained in a practical way, and the ultimate judgement is left to God. Note how all members of society would have to compromise a little, and make it work. You might wonder, what do the heterosexual believers have to compromise on? Well, if they believe homosexuality is wrong, they would likely know there are homosexuals within their society but if they are abiding by the privacy aspect then they can do as they wish in private, and they are allowed to live their lives freely. The Quran doesn't seem to indicate any obvious public displays of affection anyway, so I would assume this would be the same for everyone, heterosexual and homosexual.
peace Leyna,
You said "If it was an illness it would be "curable" but is this how "illness" is defined, i.e. a condition that is curable. ?
Not that I think of it as an "illness" but I do not think your statement is correct.
Also, as you are probably aware, apparently, some homosexuals have been "cured", but if you meant it in the sense of a treatment that cures all, then I am not aware of a "cure". -
If it was an illness it would be "curable". So far, no "cure" has ever been found, although ? as I'm sure you are aware ? there have been countless attempts.
Can the same be said for Cancer, AIDS, VURTI, Schizophrenia, etc...? There are many "illnesses" that have not been fully cured, but rather only "maintained".
Just because one hasent been found or "perfected" doesn't necessarily mean one doesn't exist.
...just to argue. )I like the fact that Wakas mentions
*just like heterosexual acts between unmarried done in private.I think this point gets overlooked often.
But another point I would mention is the Heterosexual Lewd acts that happen in Public.
For instance two Married or Unmarried Heterosexual people who have sex in public or are being excessively explicit.... That in my opinion is a lewd act.So Two Guys (or girls) excessively making out in public is as gross to me as a heterosexual couple excessively making out in public... (in my opinion)
Everyone should get a room. -
Peace Wakas
It is nice to see a post with balanced views. I agree with your views. We have to follow the middle path when it comes to topics like the one which is being discussed. Black-and-white thinking is useless. But unfortunately many people fall into this trap.
Just like you I have also believed that homosexuals can live in celibacy. I have believed this for more than six months.When members in this forum live in celibacy, then that means homosexuals also can live in celibacy. And I am not even saying that should or musto live in celibacy. What they do is up to them. I am just saying that they can live in celibacy, and that it probably would be the best thing to do for them. If homosexuals want to get married, that is not up to me. But if people say to me that it is accepted according to AQ, then I know they are wrong, and that they are saying something which they can never back up by quranic verses. It is chrystal clear from the story of Lot and other verses in the Quran that homosexuality is not compatible with the Quran. As we know, alchohol is not compatible with Quran either but people but many people still drink it. Do we punish them? Off course not. But if they get drunk and drive to fast, they will get punished by the authorities. Or if they get drunk and beat up innocent people on the street, they will get punished by the authorities. They only get punished if their drinking habits affects other people in a negative way. And I think the same should be applied to those who are intimate with persons who have the same sex as them.
Some people claim that homosexuality is natural and should be accepted. They use a famous argument, they say, since homosexuality exists in nature among animals then homosexuality is natural and should be accepted. Well, if we go by that logic, cannibalism also exists in nature and some animals eat their own species. So does that mean that cannibalism is natural, since it happens in nature and some animals each their own species? Off course not. This would be nonsense.
Some people claim that those who are homosexual, are born like that. But that does not make it natural neither. Because the first human beings were born heterosexual. If homosexuality was natural, then the first human beings couldn't have been heterosexual. Heterosexuality is natural, because a male and a women can have children. A male and a male can not have children together. And a female and a female can not have children together. The laws of nature decides what is natural, not man-made desires or illusions.
Before all illnesses and disorders existed, everything was in balance, everything was created perfect. No illnesses are natural, all illnesses are caused by man. Why? Because God created the earth perfect, and god created human beings perfect. But when the balance was disturbed, all kinds of disorders, unnatural problems, illnesses, and miseries appeared. Sad but true.
You said "If it was an illness it would be "curable" but is this how "illness" is defined, i.e. a condition that is curable. ?
According to modern medicine (allopathy) many illnesses are not curable. And many of their views are based on outdated models which contradict evidence in nature.
In the stand up comedy show "Bigger and Blacker", Chris Rocks tells some funny and thoughtprovoking things about medicine
"Doctors don't cure shit! They don't cure shit! The last disease doctors cured was polio, when's the last time you met someone with polio?"
"You think the government is gonna cure AIDS? NOO! They can't even cure athlete's foot!"
"The government curing AIDS? That's like Cadillac making a car that last for fifty years... and you know they can do it! But they ain't gonna do something that fucking dumb! Shit! They got metal on the space shuttle that can go around the moon and withstand temperatures up to 20,000 degrees. You mean to tell me you don't think they can make an El Dorado where the fucking bumper don't fall off?"
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I think that if homosexuality was an illness that God wouldn't hold you responsible for it. That would be like being punished for suffering depression or some other mental illness.
I can't quote right now were in the Quran it says that mentaly ill people whose judgment is deluded due to illness are not going to be punished for it. I am not saying that someone who is sick doesn't know at all what they are doing but in some instances it Illnes would greatly contribute to their judgment.
I don't think its an illnes and I don't think that you are born with it otherwise it would be unfair to say its a wrong act!!!
Thanks
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homosexuality is not an illness, we can't really judge as we not gay...
as far as reproduction, yes it's difficult with homosexuality...
but if you look at how the world is made, male + female, it's just logical for the two to connect, that's why there's only 2 genders... if God intended there would have been only 1, or 3, or 7...although i have nothing against them, i don't think they'll burn in hell as many seem to think, we are judged based on actions, if gays do productive things, if they treat everyone respectfully, if they uphold justice, why should they be looked at as bad people just because of their lifestyle?
maybe it's a choice, maybe they born like that, who knows, but you certainly can't force people to choose a sexuality, or to love someone
In the stand up comedy show "Bigger and Blacker", Chris Rocks tells some funny and thoughtprovoking things about medicine
"Doctors don't cure shit! They don't cure shit! The last disease doctors cured was polio, when's the last time you met someone with polio?"
"You think the government is gonna cure AIDS? NOO! They can't even cure athlete's foot!"
"The government curing AIDS? That's like Cadillac making a car that last for fifty years... and you know they can do it! But they ain't gonna do something that fucking dumb! Shit! They got metal on the space shuttle that can go around the moon and withstand temperatures up to 20,000 degrees. You mean to tell me you don't think they can make an El Dorado where the fucking bumper don't fall off?"
'doctors don't cure sh**, they just patch it up, get you to the next stop, so they can get more of your money'
'ain't no money in the cure, money's in the medicine, that's how a drug dealer makes his money, on a comeback' ;D
'hey doc i'm paralyzed whatcha got? why don't you take this chair and roll your a** around' P
'hey doc i'm blind whatcha got? why don't you take this dog and let him drag your blind a** around' Por one about gays 'gays in the military, don't let em in, don't let em in... hey, if they wanna fight let em fight, 'cause i aint fighting' D
my fav is one in 'never scared' ... 'gay marriage, ... gay people have the right to be miserable as everybody else' ;D
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'doctors don't cure sh**, they just patch it up, get you to the next stop, so they can get more of your money'
'ain't no money in the cure, money's in the medicine, that's how a drug dealer makes his money, on a comeback' ;D"A patient cured is a customer lost"
- Anonymous.
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"A patient cured is a customer lost"
- Anonymous.
such a sad way to look at it, keep people sick - to make money, sell them energy - to make money, sell them water - to make money, what's next, sell them air - to make money, charge them for breathing, for blinking, for walking, for existing...?
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If it was an illness it would be "curable". So far, no "cure" has ever been found, although ? as I'm sure you are aware ? there have been countless attempts.
And what makes you assume they don't?
Peace,
Respect.I meant illness as a problem in the subconsciousness.
The only doctor who could help them is a psychologist, God willing.A mother and a father have a daughter.
Daughter is a lesbian.
Why do I believe that she became a lesbian and that she wasn't born as such?
Because she didn't get homosexuality from dad's DNA nor from Mom's DNA.
So, where did she get it from and when?
What caused it?
What causes homosexuality?I do have a theory about it ....
Well, I'll explain later.
God Bless ya.Peace.
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Peace, Pel, and welcome. peace
Something I have often wondered about when people cite the story of Lot as "proof" that homosexuality is forbidden is the fact that it explicitly refers to men. So by that logic homosexuality between females should be ok, right?
Hi Leyna, you know the real answer to that? You won't like it. The reason is, lets face it, there are a few gender stereo types in the Quran, one of which is that men are the initiators of marriage and sex. So it whilst it sees male homosexuality and heterosexual prostitution as a danger, because men may inappropriately initiate gay sex with each other or prostitution with women, the Arabs who put our Quran to paper could not consieve of lesbianism as a moral risk. They did not see there as being a risk of women initiating sexual relationships with other women, not because they were pro-lesbian, but because they did not think women were capable of initiating a sexual act or relationship at all. If they thought of it as something with often happened, they would have definitely remembered to include a story about God sending fire and brimstone upon the island of Lesbos.
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I think that today's peoples have been hypnotised into considering homosexuality or heterosexuality as thing in itself and that people fall in one or other category, to which some add the bisexual category. That is exactly putting people in boxes. Anybody or almost anybody can be homosexual if he or she is willing to try it. Homosexuality has its attractiveness and there are many things that go with it that are not strictly sexual, but rather a combination of temperament, emotional make up, emotional history, mentnal make up, personal history, moral attitude and attitude in general towards life and mores. One who never tries or has an homosexual experience is far less likely to become homosexual than sombody who tries it out of curiosity. Of those I know plenty. Curiosity killed the cat. Curiosity is a very powerful push to have sex of whatever kind. So to say that all people called "homosexual" were born like that is completely false. It would also be false to say that none fo them were born so. Some, it seems, physiollogically are compelled to that. Whether they actualise it or not, is something else. It is nonsense that one is born hetero or homo or even bi, although bi would be closer to truth if we only have in mind the possibilities and capacity to enjoy. Sex can be enjoyed mostly any way if it is a matter of being capable of it leaving aside any mores, or moral consideration.
Muslims are not called to do anything they can or even anything pleasurable just because they can or because it is pleasurable. We are told that we were made different in order to know each other, in general we are made so, into species, into sexes, into peoples, so that we are helped in our way back to God. Sex is there to help us. It is not a prison. Any man, if he tries, may derive a lot of wisdom from being intimately bound to a woman and trying to live through her, through her eyes, and vice versa. It is a learning. With any other person, even same sex, we can learn and evolve a lot for our betterment also, although not necessarily nor even conveniently through sexual activity.
Sex, "hetero" or "homo", doesn't matter, is and has been considered as some kind of escape from pressures and stresses of other kinds, and in sex get buried a lot of trautmatic suffering and experiences that we do not even know of and which we proccess emotionally the best we are able to. For some people may be simpler than for others, but I bet most sexual conflicts stem from something else. To take one example, very straightforward and simple, take male children who from very early are soft, "feminine" cling to their mother because they do not like what other boys do or how they paly, like to dress up, be woman-like, because that is their natural temperament. Of course someone like that suffers very, very much, and is almost sure will in love with somebody on whom he can pour all those "feminine" sensibility and feelings that seem to be out of place. He will not even be able dress in a pretty dress or fluffy blouse or in a skirt and wear heardos as he would like and do for himself. Would it be a wonder that such a person should choose a "personality" to project and live with that whouldn't kill soul, his feeling, his sensitivity, his natural likes and dislikes?
I have put it very black and white, but environment gives a lot of reasons for many people to have emotional problems with sociological genders. And it doesn't get better, not in the west, I do not know about the east. Rules for males are even stricter than for females as far as those kinds of things are concerned. Even without being homos, men are immidiately suspected as such if they show some "feminine" streak. It may seem surprising that there have tradicitionally been more males homos the female. I think it is because they are marked much more ruthlessly. It is a hint of how highly the world has been regarding certain attitudes as more desirable than others. "Femininess" has not been desired, has been subordinated and supressed and the only way women have been able to push forward in society seems to have been by adopting the traits of dominance and unsensitivity, which of course are not naturally masculine -or feminine-, but have been so branded by societies through history.
We should reflect on those things, I think and in the meantime be conscious that a whoremonger is filth, even if homosexual, but that society has not been a model of acceptance of the "weird" precisely and that it has driven many innocent persons to great suffering and conflict. How those people have survived may not have been ideal, specially for them, but the right to survive comes first and any way choosing between being amputated of your sex or of your soul is not a palatable choice.
Other question, of course, are the "homos", that are so just out of lewdness, and of those, I am afraid, there are plenty. Lewdness is lewdness one way or the other. So I do not think it is homo or hetero, but purity or lack of it. And I think that is what we will be judged for. How much effort we have put in order to attain our full humanity to worship Him with the means He has given us. In principle, the opposite sex should be for the most reassuring and peacegiving arrangemente, but when the conditions are against one's most sincere endeavours mercilessly, one should be thankful if through whatever difficulties still we praise God.
Salaam
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Anybody or almost anybody can be homosexual if he or she is willing to try it. Homosexuality has its attractiveness and there are many things that go with it that are not strictly sexual, but rather a combination of temperament, emotional make up, emotional history, mentnal make up, personal history, moral attitude and attitude in general towards life and mores. One who never tries or has an homosexual experience is far less likely to become homosexual than sombody who tries it out of curiosity.
How does that make it any different than heterosexuality?
What about homosexuality in animals? Of which there are plenty of examples. Is this a natural inclination?
