Same sex relationships/ marriages
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First and foremost Pel you must remember that marriage is a political term and not a religious term. I say that because a government recognizes marriage mainly for property rights issues not for issues of love and family.
When I say marriage I mean a ceremony and papers and such.
Secondly, I don't know that there is a such thing as minor and major sins. Someoneplease correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall th Quran using such terminology. If I am right then sin is sin.
I believe the Allah clearly shows his position on homosexuality in the Quran with the scriptures you previously referenced. However that doesn't mean you should hate homosexuals or disown your friend. We are all sinners and friends of sinners. May Allah guide us all.
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huruf
As I said God is precise in His Book?.He clearly uses different words for different sins?
God uses the Al-Fahishah specifically for homosexuality whether you accept/believe it or not?.The word used by God is Al-Fahishah.Here is the Arabic of the 415;
And now the same exact word in the following verses
780-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
2754-Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination, publicly, while you see?
2755-"You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women. Indeed, you are ignorant people."
2928-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
And below verse states how God condemn it.
2419-Those who love to see immorality spread among the believers have incurred a painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. GOD knows, while you do not know.
And for Zena the following verses
242-The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
243-The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
The verses 415-16 are referring to homosexuality not prostitution for following reason par from the verses given in above as solid proofs
1-In the system of God with set rules, commands and punishment for any sexual activity out of wedlock is called Zena and its punishment is in 242 ?..If 415 is referring to prostitution then question would be ,what about the punishment for the man/men who get engage in sexual activities with those women? None. The verse is silent on it.
2-If we take 416 by saying that it refers to male prostitution then question would be how come, because the word is a dual form and it applies to one male+one female and also 2 males???If one male and one female commit Al-Fahishah then it?s adultery/Zena and the punishment for it is 100 lashes in public not that keeping them in the house till they die or God make an exit for them as 415 states.
There are two kind of sexual activities take place ?..it?s either between two opposite sex or between two same gender ??..It?s impossible that God leaves out the punishment for the same gender sexual activities because it disturbs/cancels the whole system of marriage protection as He issue 100 lashes for any intimate relation out of marriage and forbids for the believer marrying them unless they repent???If there wasn?t any protection /punishment for homosexuality it means that God forbidden a husband or a wife is free in committing homosexuality without any kind of punishment or feeling bad about it and the foundation of family would collapse...This doesn't fit in God's system.
It?s interesting that people of Lot condemned to death and God uses the word of death for Al-Fahisha too in 415.
Asana
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There is no punishment in 4.15, 4.16. It is not about punishment.
It is funny on the other hand, that this same aya 4.15 has been read as women's adultery by many. For me that is just an evidence of the comprehensiveness of the aya, which might be applied to a wide range of fahisha it it fits. But certainly it can be applied to public soliciting.
I have checked to be on the safe side how the term "faahisa" turns up in the Qur'an. There I give a list a those appearances that cannot be interpreted as referring exclusively to homosexual acts.
There are three cases where not only they cannot be interrpeted exclusively as such, but they annot be applied at all as referring to homosexual acts in that case. Check 4.22, 24.19, 33.30.
1.135
4.19
4.22
4.25
6.151
7.28
7.33
17.32
24.19
33.30
42.37
53.32
65.1Homosexual acts may be fawahish, but it is just one form of fawahish. Fahisha does nto particularly refer to homosexual acts, it refers to anything shameful, dubious, abhorrent... Just the picture you get when you read the Qur'an.
Salaam
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huruf
,There is no punishment in 4.15, 4.16. It is not about punishment.
If it is not a punishment then why 4 witnesses are needed?
Making limited freedom of one as staying in the house which means not allowing leaving the house is a punishment?It sounds like a prison.,I have checked to be on the safe side how the term "faahisa" turns up in the Qur'an. There I give a list a those appearances that cannot be interpreted as referring exclusively to homosexual acts.
You missed a very crucial point in those verses quoted in my previous post. The word you?re talking about in those verses are Fahishah not Al-Fahishah which specified by God referring to that sin.
There are 5 verses with the word of Al-Fahishah used in the Quran?Three of them specifically refer to Lot?s people/homosexuality .They are
780-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
2754-Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination, publicly, while you see?
2755-"You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women. Indeed, you are ignorant people."
2928-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
Verse 2755 specifies what Al-Fahishah is.
The other 2 verses are-415
2419-Those who love to see immorality spread among the believers have incurred a painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. GOD knows, while you do not know.
-2419 .
God is showing us in those 3 verses what He means by Al-Fahishah and He uses the same one in 415 to tell us the Fahishah He is talking about is the Al-Fahishah already known to us through verses related to the people of Lot as homosexuality.
Nobody can refute 2755 the immediate verse after 2754 where the Al-Fahishah has been used and by that what God means there.In 2419 God reminds us what would be the subsequences of spreading that Fahishah as He calls it Al-Fahishah.
,Homosexual acts may be fawahish, but it is just one form of fawahish.
You are right ,that?s why God specified the Homosexuality in those verses in above by prefix of ?Al? to specify it without any trace of doubt in our minds what He means in 415 and 2419.
Here are those verses that you quoted .None of them has been specified as ?Al-Fahishah?.
419
422
425
6511
728
733
1732
3330
4237
5332
651
Sorry for repeating the verses...i hope now i'm clear on what i meant.
Peace
Asana -
There is no punishment in 4.15, 4.16. It is not about punishment.
It is funny on the other hand, that this same aya 4.15 has been read as women's adultery by many. For me that is just an evidence of the comprehensiveness of the aya, which might be applied to a wide range of fahisha it it fits. But certainly it can be applied to public soliciting.
I have checked to be on the safe side how the term "faahisa" turns up in the Qur'an. There I give a list a those appearances that cannot be interpreted as referring exclusively to homosexual acts.
There are three cases where not only they cannot be interrpeted exclusively as such, but they annot be applied at all as referring to homosexual acts in that case. Check 4.22, 24.19, 33.30.
1.135
4.19
4.22
4.25
6.151
7.28
7.33
17.32
24.19
33.30
42.37
53.32
65.1Homosexual acts may be fawahish, but it is just one form of fawahish. Fahisha does nto particularly refer to homosexual acts, it refers to anything shameful, dubious, abhorrent... Just the picture you get when you read the Qur'an.
Salaam
Nice compilation. I too came to a similar conclusion
They are called musrifeen in the context of them preferring men over ladies, hence exceeding the limits (781). They are also called fasiqeen/transgressors( 2174). 1716, 259, and 649 are good verses for fasiqeen, which all help us understand what these guys were doing. So, even if they were straight, it would not matter. They would still be zalimeen/wicked/unjust, committers of al fahisha/lewdness, musrifeen/those who exceed the limits, etc.
what did these people do? They tried to force Lot and his family out of town BECAUSE they (Lot's company) wished to be pure - 782 Their response to reason/sound judgment (117 was to banish Lot.
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Anything which is done in the presence or with anyone else gets apparent and falls in apparent/surfaced and will relate only to that which is done individually in seclusion, and in the seclusion of one individual there can't be homosexuality. Hence it is only one aspect or extreme form of .
Its range can be gauged here
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/Temo%2001%2053.32.gif
And those people are those who consciously avoid committing major and grave sins and illicit sexual activities except the minor occasional lapses.5332
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Yes it is clear what you mean now, but asfar as I can see there is no way you can determine in the context that. 24.19 refers in any way to homosexuality except if you already have determined that that is what it has to mean. In fact, the context points to quite the opposite, that the fahisha it is speaking about is not that, but the spreading of slander about honest women. 24.19 disprooves your assertion.
The same can be said of 4.15. There is nothing, aboslutely nothin, that points to homosexuality, except that you look at it determined to see it as such. In this case homosexual fahisa might be included, but then why only women's homosexuality.
The fact that four witnesses are required does not mean that it is a punishment, but that you have to prove something beyond contest. As to keeping women in the house, ?which house? and not let them go out ?where do you get that from? It says take them into the houses, not do not allow them to go out. No jail, no prison no nothing. A pnealty is previously fixed, may be between a minimum penalty wihout aggravating circumstances, and a maximum with them, but fixed. Zina 100 lashes, for the Prophets's wives double, defamation of zina against women 80 lashes, Prophet's wives double that. ?What kind of penalty is that of what you call limited freedom of between one second and a whole life? ?Is that serious? ?What kind of joke is that? ?And what would be the double of tht for the Prophet's wives?
And what then about 4.15? Annoy them is a penalty? What kind of penalty is annoy them? ?And why, according to what you say, the zani and the zaniya should be punished equallly and the homosexual acts of males and females should be punished in the case of women and not in the case of men. Finally all the great and abhorrent descriptions and tirades about "looties" and all the "alfahisha" that you unquestioningly relate to homosexuality refer to males and not to lesbians, why when the chicken come to roost the punishment is precisely for lesbians and the lootis get scot free, with just some annoyance? I thought lottery was out of the question for muslims. And that is what this lookds like, lottery.
In fact if you need four witnesses in 4.15, it is because society is going to take charge of umprotected people who could not do it by themselve, like the case of street prostitutes. Just the same as you need several doctors" testimony if you pretend to put somebody in mental teatment, because you cannot force people to live here or there for their own protection without proving that they do need that protection. What can be understood from 4.15 is that you take those wretched women off the street and put them into the houses, no leave on the street, and upkeep them there in charge of soceity till another means of living are with their reach. And if they should find no other means, then they are in charge of society till they die. Simple. ?This also fits in the matter which is dealt with in those ayas and which is the subject of Sura An-Nisaa'.
I do not exclude that there may be other applications of this aya, but that is the immediaty idea it evoques, and the idea that sticks after doing plenty of pondering. I do not see any other thing that suits better, although I repeat, I do not exclude other possibilities, but homosexuality per se and exclusively not at all, unles it is public multiple homosexual orgies, which I do not think were very frequest then nor now nor ever.
Salaam
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huruf
It looks like you?ve decided to ignore major verses where God recognises intimate relation only between opposite sex and only with the spouses?.And giving punishment to those who commit it out of wedlock.
You ignore the verses related to the people of Lot specially 2754-55 where the definition of the word is so clear and you stick to 2929 while you forget that God has already told us the punishment for stealing/thief and other vice .And as soon as God say what they do in 2928 in 2929 the first thing is again definition of their Al-Fahishah as homosexuality and then goes on telling them what else they do.
You persist on interpreting 415 as prostitution on the street while forgetting that there are only bunch of women on the street while forgetting the big business/organisation that work at home. And no where verse is telling us take the women of the street.
You ignore 416 where God specifically uses dual form to tell us about the relation of 2 males too and implying the same punishment for them as for women in 415 in this manner
416- The couple who commits (---) shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
The punishment for the two in 416 definitely referring to 2 men because if the sin happens between a male+a female then it is adultery which already God told us the punishment for it .
If keeping them in the home doesn?t sound like a kind of limiting the freedom to you which means a kind of prison for the person then maybe you should stay indoors for a month or so then see how it feels if one has to stay for longer than that?..BTW the verse is saying about the houses which a building can be built by Islamic government and call it house and put them there by watching them not coming out ?In this way the essence of the command has been fulfilled?.Of course you can argue about it but you can?t deny it that it?s a house and God hasn?t specified what kind of house.
You wouldn?t want to accept that prostitution is Zena and punishment for it is 100 lashes unless you?d like separate the prostitution from adultery which means sexual relation between 2 unmarried people whether one pay for it or it's a consensual sex.
You don?t have answer to the question where if you?re asked what about a husband or a wife sleep with same gender, are they allowed in doing so if lesbians and homosexuality are not condemned by God?
You don?t have answer to the sin of the men who commit in 416, what sin are they commiting, Prostitution or adultry?
At the end you?re free argue and interpret 415-16 as wish but you can?t refute the command of God by telling us with whom intimate relation must happen and violating it sin and sin is prohibited.
Peace
Asana -
huruf
It looks like you?ve decided to ignore major verses where God recognises intimate relation only between opposite sex and only with the spouses?.And giving punishment to those who commit it out of wedlock.
Please back what you attribute me with some quotation. I do not know what you are talking about, nor does it look as if you have read all my messages, or read them properly.
?How do I ignore them ? You quoted them enough times for anybody to ignore them, but what you attempt is to impose that "al fahisha" refers exclusively to homosexuality, and I pointed out to you thre instances where obvously al fahisha cannot refer to homosexuality exclusively. It is no whim of mine. The verses are there in the Quran.
You ignore the verses related to the people of Lot specially 2754-55 where the definition of the word is so clear and you stick to 2929 while you forget that God has already told us the punishment for stealing/thief and other vice .And as soon as God say what they do in 2928 in 2929 the first thing is again definition of their Al-Fahishah as homosexuality and then goes on telling them what else they do.
Again, please quote anything I said, because I do not know what you are talking about nor do I see that I have referred to 29.29 at all.
You persist on interpreting 415 as prostitution on the street while forgetting that there are only bunch of women on the street while forgetting the big business/organisation that work at home. And no where verse is telling us take the women of the street.
I don't forget anything, but since it asks for four witnesses, it can hardly be behind closed doors. And the verse says, and I have repeated it already several times, "take them into the houses". So, where can they be that they are to be put into the houses. Obviously in the huses they are not.
You ignore 416 where God specifically uses dual form to tell us about the relation of 2 males too and implying the same punishment for them as for women in 415 in this manner
You do resolutely ignore what I write and then go on to answer what you seems to have decided that I have said. Again, please quote. Or rather I quote again, because it is already several times, and you do not seem to wnat to read it.
416- The couple who commits (---) shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.The punishment for the two in 416 definitely referring to 2 men because if the sin happens between a male+a female then it is adultery which already God told us the punishment for it .
Sorry I made a typing error in my message where I said
"And what then about 4.15? Annoy them is a penalty? What kind of penalty is annoy them? ?And why, according to what you say, the zani and the zaniya should be punished equallly and the homosexual acts of males and females should be punished in the case of women and not in the case of men. Finally all the great and abhorrent descriptions and tirades about "looties" and all the "alfahisha" that you unquestioningly relate to homosexuality refer to males and not to lesbians, why when the chicken come to roost the punishment is precisely for lesbians and the lootis get scot free, with just some annoyance? I thought lottery was out of the question for muslims. And that is what this lookds like, lottery."
Where it says 4.15, I meant 4.16.
"" is not punish them, but annoy them. Or what is the punishment that you see imposed in this aya? And again, and this has already been said before, the dual, when not feminine dual, can be either two males or a male and a female. That is also not a whim of mine, that is the grammar which as far as I know. And at no point have I said that 4.16 refers to prostitution or soliciting. It may and it may refer to any other fahisha in which two people may be involved.
You wouldn?t want to accept that prostitution is Zena and punishment for it is 100 lashes unless you?d like separate the prostitution from adultery which means sexual relation between 2 unmarried people whether one pay for it or it's a consensual sex.
Again, if you attribute something to me, please quote. I dislike the way you keep surmising. Please do not. Iam not interested in a contest nor in winning anything, so please keep to what I said and not to what you surmise. Nobody here is on trial.
Obviously and I have said so somewhere along the debate, I think, if there are four witnesses of illicit fornication, be it prostitution or otherwise, that comes under the rubric of zina and the penalty is already fixed. But prostitution is not done in front of many witnesses usually, rather secludedly, therefore and I did say that, what the fahisha is may be soliciting, and of that there may well be foour or more witnesses.
Salaam
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Islamic same-sex marriage? A contradiction in terms or an emerging reality?
When suggested to many people, whether Muslims or non-Muslims, the idea of a same-sex Islamic wedding seems like an oxymoron. But, even while not sanctioned by most mainstream Muslim groups or recognized in most predominantly Muslim societies, a growing number of women are doing so.
In the west, a few women have even come to the attention of major news organizations. BBC 5 has a story regarding one British Muslim couple
Asra and Sarah discuss their relationship
?We met about three years ago, at an iftar ? a breaking of fast during Ramadan.
?I think a lot of Muslims find that time of year very spiritual and very enlightening, and so I think that?s why our relationship developed, because we spoke about our faith.?
?Eventually we went on a date.?
Asra fondly remembers the moment Sarah proposed to her.
?After the first date, which was about an hour, Sarah casually asked me to marry her.?
Sarah interjects.
?I think it was more like four hours, after dinner, coffee and walking. I didn?t really plan it, but it just really seemed like the way it was between us, I should try and keep it as pure as possible.
?That may sound strange being lesbians, but it felt like we should do it the most honourable way we could.?
It may seem strange to many non-Muslims, regardless of their orientation, but it?s not unusual for many religious Muslims around the world to become engaged very quicky. (The present author, for example, became engaged the second time she met her ex-husband (long before coming out!)) Usually, for heterosexual couples, a nikah is written up. As a marriage contract, it has many of the aspects of a prenuptial agreement in the West and usually spells out conditions of financial support for any children from the marriage, alimony and so on as well as specific conditions under which the marriage will be dissolved (many women, for instance, insist that no second marriage will be permitted) as well as financial arrangements.
In most Islamic traditions, in contrast to Christianity, marriage is not a ?sacrament? and is more like a civil union. As there is no exact equivalent to a priesthood, the closest thing to an officiant would be a qadi (a judge in an Islamic court) , an imam, or simply someone considered particularly knowledgable in Qur?an and sharia law. For Asra and Sarah, a friend suggested a knowledgable lesbian Muslim and, just three months after the proposal, the big day came.
Asra wore a white shalwar kameez ? a traditional Pakistani outfit ? and Sarah a pink dress. The short ceremony was conducted in Arabic, and additional duas ? prayers ? were read and the marriage was essentially no different from the nikahs performed for straight Muslim couples all over the world.
So, many Muslims may ask, was it sunnah? (That is, is such a marriage permissible in Islam?)
Surprisingly, perhaps, the answer would appear to be yes. From a conservative website, we find a fatwa explaining why lesbianism is a sin and using hadith (sayings of the Prophet) to demonstrate this
Ibn Qudaamah said (9/59)
If two women engage in lesbian sexual relations, then they are guilty of zina and are cursed, because it was narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said ?If a woman has sexual relations with another woman, then they are both guilty of zina.? There is no hadd punishment for them because they did not have intercourse, rather it is likened to intimate relations that are less than intercourse, and they are to be subjected to a ta?zeer punishment.
This hadeeth was narrated by al-Bayhaqi from Abu Moosa (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said ?If a man has sexual relations with another man, they are both guilty of zina, and if a woman has sexual relations with another woman they are both guilty of zina.?
http//www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/21058
The ?crime?, though, is not same-sex sex but, instead, the fact that it is sex outside of marriage (zina) and is to be punished in the same way as adultery. So, if same-sex sex isn?t in itself sinful, a growing number of Muslims argue, a same-sex marriage is actually acceptable. As gay American Imam Daayiee Abdullah argues, ?By not allowing same-sex couples to wed, there is a direct attack on the Qur?an?s message that each person has a mate who is their ?comfort and their cloak??
More and more practicing Muslim women are finding that, rather than being inherently at odds, they can find ways to combine both their sexuality and their religion in ways that allow them to embrace both.
http//lezgetreal.com/2011/02/islamic-same-sex-marriage-a-contradiction-in-terms-or-an-emerging-reality/
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I am having a hard time with this one. I do think that God doesn't aprove of same sex relashionships but I personaly never had anything against it. Its a situation were I think that God dislikes something and I don't wich is theoreticaly not very good for my future in after life.
I supose you can belong to any monotheistic religion and say you are gay as well. But does that make sense? I think that the only way for it to make sense is if you are a liberal Quranist muslim. If you are a literalist then I don't see how can you be a practisning gay muslim.
I would have to say that some of the liberals on this forum have given me some good explanations of why did Jesus have a father, precicely it was Loxbox. Now he did it by using the Quranic verses.
If anyone can prove to me that you can be a fully practising muslim and gay I would like to hear it.
I do believe that you can be gay and believe in Allah. I have done haram unfortunately in life and I believed at the same time.
I am always open to adjusting my opinion of what Allah wants from us. I only have one condition It must be backed up By the Quran.
Thanks