Childre of Israel , Media or jerusalem?
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But what about this, the decisive source!
And He has since sent The Criterion .The decisive source is what is telling you about the Torah!
What is the credibility of so called Torah, is any better than hadith literature? Rather more unreliable and conjectural. And listen about those whom Toraat was given
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they distort the statement out of its context in a different angle/dimension/perspective ;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.013f.giflayyan bi-alsinatihim, twisting with their tongues, just like sunni do when they say 'take whatever the prophet gives you' means everything in hadith and not the spoils of war that the BOOK says it means! This does not change what's in the BOOK itself though. Torah is only the first 5 books of Old Testament, the other parts are the HADITH on Moses they call the ORAL Torah. ORAL = spoken. The information I am looking at is Torah, not Talmud.
and they have forgotten a part about which they were reminded
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and you will never cease to to receive information about some treachery on their part except for a few of them .
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Therefore divert yourself from them ignoring what they do and leave them .Surat 5 Ayat 13
Why you wish to be with them placing reliance on their stories?
NONE of this is telling you the BOOK is changed but is warning you thay changed what they SAY about it just like the hadith of Muhammed change what Quran actually says.
I am not being with anyone who changes anything that God says, why do you assume the BOOK is changed when Allah clearly tells you it is what they SAY that is incorrect? Obviously the Torah itself is still as is because He also says those that follow IT are right. Just like there are a portion of Jews, Christians and Muslims that change what God said with THEIR tongues does not mean that Quran or Torah themselves have been changed.
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But what about this, the decisive source!
And He has since sent The Criterion .The decisive source is what is telling you about the Torah!
This is exactly what is told
"they distort the statement out of its context in a different angle/dimension/perspective;"
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This is exactly what is told
"they distort the statement out of its context in a different angle/dimension/perspective;"
That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.This is confirming the Torah at the time of Jesus was original
3.50 And confirming to what (is) between my hands from the Torah and to permit/allow for you some (of) what was forbidden on you, and I came to you with a sign/evidence from your Lord, so fear and obey God and obey me.61.6 And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
This is showing that those who had the Torah failed it, just as those that have Quran fail it
62.5 The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah and Allah guides not people who do wrong.This speaks for itself
5.68 Say "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.5.44 It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
9.111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise) they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded that is the achievement supreme.
28.49 Say "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, (Torah and Quran) that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"
46.12 And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
That is just a few, and all you come up with is "This is exactly what is told
"they distort the statement out of its context in a different angle/dimension/perspective;""
That is not exactly what is told is it Mazhar, you are like those that sell the truth for a paltry price or hide it.
And I notice you avoided the rest of my post.
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Quote from Mazhar on Today at 080021 AM
This is exactly what is told"they distort the statement out of its context in a different angle/dimension/perspective;"
That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.The very first Ayat you quoted and bolded for deriving a preconceived perception further confirms what I stated earlier in the above quote you mentioned.
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And how they accept/appoint you, the Messenger, as Judge when with them is the Tor'aat wherein is written the Command of Allah afterwards despite this Command they turn away,http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.043a.gif
and they are certainly not the believers.Does your so called torah contain this? If not then it is nothing but jew hadith more unreliable that Bukhari's.
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The very first Ayat you quoted and bolded for deriving a preconceived perception further confirms what I stated earlier in the above quote you mentioned.
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And how they accept/appoint you, the Messenger, as Judge when with them is the Tor'aat wherein is written the Command of Allah afterwards despite this Command they turn away,http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.043a.gif
and they are certainly not the believers.But this STILL does not say the Torah is NOT with us and says the SAME as with people who do not believe NOW in Quran = they are NOT BELIEVERS, it says nothing about the Torah NOT being the Torah which is what YOU are trying to say!
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It seems you are struggling with this Mazhar. You are trying to say that because among the Jews there are unbelievers that its the BOOK that is wrong or changed in some way. The Quran tells you countless times that there are the same with THIS BOOK and there are those that hear the message and still turn away, but that does not mean the BOOK is wrong either does it.
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The very first Ayat you quoted and bolded for deriving a preconceived perception further confirms what I stated earlier in the above quote you mentioned.
The preconceived perception is yours in thinking that it is the Torah itself which has changed or been corrupted in some way when Quran it very clear it is not and it is the people that didn't follow it or said things that were not in it, just as people do about Quran.
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The question is this which will tell whether the torah you keep referring is Toraat sent by Allah or human's hand written from their own thoughts.
Does your so called torah contain this? If not then it is nothing but jew hadith more unreliable that Bukhari's.
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It seems you are struggling with this Mazhar. You are trying to say that because among the Jews there are unbelievers that its the BOOK that is wrong or changed in some way. The Quran tells you countless times that there are the same with THIS BOOK and there are those that hear the message and still turn away, but that does not mean the BOOK is wrong either does it.
Do you believe the Torah we have today is the same as the one given to Moses?
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The question is this which will tell whether the torah you keep referring is Toraat sent by Allah or human's hand written from their own thoughts.
How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts? One good way to check Torah, if you are convinced you have solid proof that Quran is from Allah and not from Muhammeds thoughts, is to look up the stories that Quran refers to in the Torah, there are many.
I have proven to you that the Torah mentioned in Quran was the same one Allah sent to Moses so it was the same one almost 1400 years ago. Your job is to prove it was changed SINCE then. You will find it has not been changed and the Jews that DO believe and DO follow are still following that to this day.
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Do you believe the Torah we have today is the same as the one given to Moses?
I have just answered that in my post to Mazhar. It was the same up to the time of Muhammed, do you have any proof it has been changed since then?
you have to bear in mind this is the Jews HOLY BOOK, just as Quran is the Muslims HOLY BOOK and the believers among them have taken great pains to keep it from corruption although as with Quran we can stop the book itself being changed we cannot stop those who will 'twist it with their tongues'.
I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
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The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
Agreed, but where does it say that the Torah they had at the time was the authentic original? The challenge by the Prophet was to bring something from God better than the Torah and the Quran.
That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.It says they already have their own law yet they come to the Prophet in deviance. We can assume their "law" in this context was still authentic but what's to say everything they had in their Torah was authentic?
I think the other verses you quoted follow a similar line of thinking.
What I'm getting is that they obviously still had guidance within the scriptures that they had, but the Quran doesn't say what they had at the time was exactly the same as what was given to the old Prophets.
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The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
Agreed, but where does it say that the Torah they had at the time was the authentic original? The challenge by the Prophet was to bring something from God better than the Torah and the Quran.
Where does it say its not the original? Why would this even be discussed if it was not the Torah that ALLAH was challenging them about bringing something better? If it was not original at that time then surely Allah would have known and said so.That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.It says they already have their own law yet they come to the Prophet in deviance. We can assume their "law" in this context was still authentic but what's to say everything they had in their Torah was authentic?
The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.I think the other verses you quoted follow a similar line of thinking.
What I'm getting is that they obviously still had guidance within the scriptures that they had, but the Quran doesn't say what they had at the time was exactly the same as what was given to the old Prophets.
Are you sure it doesn't say it is the same Torah?
It doesnt say it wasnt either and why would Allah be refering to it (Torah) as many times as He does giving very plain verses that what it was at this time is what He gave them? Thre is absolutely nothing in Quran to say Torah at the time of Muhammed is not what Allah gave to Moses and there are numerous verses to confirm it was. Quran CONFIRMS it. Why would Allah confirm a Book that He knew at that time was not the same as He had given originally?
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Where does it say its not the original?
Again, the challenge was to bring something better than the Quran or the Torah. It says nothing about the state of the Torah at that time.
The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.
Agreed, but you're missing the point I was making. They indeed had their own law in front of them but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic. The emphasis in this verse is their obvious disbelief, in that they are not sincere in their request of a decision from the Prophet. That's the ?story? of this verse i.e. they were going to the Prophet for a decision in the hope of a lenient one because they didn't like what they found in their own law. Allah says in this verse that they should have followed that law because God indeed sanctioned it, but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic.
Are you sure it doesn't say it is the same Torah?
Yes. Can you find an explicit verse that says it is? I'll change my mind if you can.
It doesnt say it wasnt either
Agreed.
and why would Allah be refering to it (Torah) as many times as He does giving very plain verses that what it was at this time is what He gave them?
Because the Torah is from Allah. That's not under dispute. But you're suggesting the Quran says the Torah at the time of the Prophet was the same as what was given to Moses. It doesn't say that, as far as I can see.
Thre is absolutely nothing in Quran to say Torah at the time of Muhammed is not what Allah gave to Moses and there are numerous verses to confirm it was.
The verses you've quoted so far don't confirm that the Torah at that time was the same as the one given to Moses.
Quran CONFIRMS it. Why would Allah confirm a Book that He knew at that time was not the same as He had given originally?
The Quran confirms the Torah given to Moses. That doesn't mean the Quran confirms every version of the Torah in existence at that time.
Many rabbinical scholars believe the five books of the Torah were bought together during the time of the Persian Empire from a wide range of manuscripts and oral transmission. I'm not saying they're right, but these people know more about the Torah than us. There also other theories too. What's clear is much of the original teachings of Moses would have survived, as proven by some of the Quran verses you've quoted. But to say that the scripture the Arab Jews had at the time was the same as the one given to Moses is not found explicitly from the Quran and is unlikely to be true in the light of research by Jewish scholars.
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How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts?
It looks strange question from a lady quoting dozens of Aayat in one go from Qur'aan. Perhaps there are dozen of Ayat on this topic saying it is not compiled and drafted by the Messenger of Allah. And this perception of some people is challenged by asking them to produce from anywhere from the whole of world a similar one if they genuinely believe if it was authored by him.
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I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
Such were petty tricks of clergy to keep people away from the Original Book and restrict them to what they gossip.
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Again, the challenge was to bring something better than the Quran or the Torah. It says nothing about the state of the Torah at that time.
So the challenge would be to bring something better than Quran and Torah even in a bad state? Please Mushu, don't insult Allah. If it was not from Allah then it would be easy to bring a better quide than that surely.The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.
Agreed, but you're missing the point I was making. They indeed had their own law in front of them but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic. The emphasis in this verse is their obvious disbelief, in that they are not sincere in their request of a decision from the Prophet. That's the ?story? of this verse i.e. they were going to the Prophet for a decision in the hope of a lenient one because they didn't like what they found in their own law. Allah says in this verse that they should have followed that law because God indeed sanctioned it, but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic.
My whole argument is not based round this one verse. I know what it was about.
You are saying that Allah sanctioned the Law that was not authentic?
I will repeat myself again, the LAW = Torah is the first 5 books of the OT, the Law of Moses and that is IT. The rest of the OT is NOT the Law and is not the Torah that Allah spoke of.Yes. Can you find an explicit verse that says it is? I'll change my mind if you can.
32.23 We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee) and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.
be not in doubt of the book of Moses reaching Muhammed.
Because the Torah is from Allah. That's not under dispute. But you're suggesting the Quran says the Torah at the time of the Prophet was the same as what was given to Moses. It doesn't say that, as far as I can see.
see above verse and others I have posted in this thread. If this was NOT as it was then we Allah would have said so, instead the Jews are told to judge by what was revealed to them, if it was no longer the same then Allah would have known that and said that they had changed it NOT just by their tonges as they did by ADDING the oral Torah which was the hadith of Moses and the laws they already had BEFORE the Law. The Torah is still the Torah, the Talmud and Tanak are NOT.The verses you've quoted so far don't confirm that the Torah at that time was the same as the one given to Moses.
So you think Allah is telling the jews to judge by a corrupt book?The Quran confirms the Torah given to Moses. That doesn't mean the Quran confirms every version of the Torah in existence at that time.
Many rabbinical scholars believe the five books of the Torah were bought together during the time of the Persian Empire from a wide range of manuscripts and oral transmission. I'm not saying they're right, but these people know more about the Torah than us. There also other theories too. What's clear is much of the original teachings of Moses would have survived, as proven by some of the Quran verses you've quoted. But to say that the scripture the Arab Jews had at the time was the same as the one given to Moses is not found explicitly from the Quran and is unlikely to be true in the light of research by Jewish scholars.
Many Islamic scholars think the original Quran was burnt and the one we have now was done by Omar or Uthman??(I may have that caliph wrong)
Quran was recited and supposedly later written down. Torah was recited and supposedly written down later.
The oral Torah (This is NOT the Torah) was supposedly the saying and explanations of Moses which continued in oral form, just like hadith, and when eventually written down was called the mishnah, centuries later other commentaries were added and called the Gemarah, the Mishnah and the Gemara together are called the Talmud, a bit like tafsir ibn Kathir! There are 2 of these, the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. These are divided into sections exactly like hadith of Bukhari.
The Torah that Allah speaks of in Quran is the LAW which is the 5 books of Moses only.
There is as much evidence that this is NOT the original as there is evidence that this Quran is NOT original and if we believe that then we might as well give up now.
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How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts?
It looks strange question from a lady quoting dozens of Aayat in one go from Qur'aan. Perhaps there are dozen of Ayat on this topic saying it is not compiled and drafted by the Messenger of Allah. And this perception of some people is challenged by asking them to produce from anywhere from the whole of world a similar one if they genuinely believe if it was authored by him.
taken out of context again Mazhar? You must really be struggling with this one ;D