Muslims and non-muslims
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cavemandoctor that is a really nice verse. Who is Rabia though?
Early female Sufi mystic.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabia_Basri
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On a school trip to Egypt a man (yes, he was muslim) approached her and told her that she must have done something terribly wrong for Allah to punish her that much.....
That man didn't know what he was talking about and was rude to tell her so. end of line.
I believe your sister is being given the chance to know and appreciate God, love and life like no one else could.
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the thing that really comforts me about islam is that unlike most religions, the God portrayed in the Quran implies that good deeds count a LOT towards saving yourself..you dont necessarily need to be following the quran to be "saved"...God isnt putting the emphasis on His word as much as he is on doing good....mainstream christianity believes in recognising and accepting jesus's sacrifice in order to be saved (jesus's words in the bible indicate otherwise though)..but islam is more about doing good and acting righteously, even if ur agnostic...atleast thats wat i think..now..lol ...my beliefs are quite subject to change as i read more andmore...inshallah i will get all my answers and be truly guided at some point of life
The reason this give me no comfort is that if we can do enough good deeds to go to Heaven then Heaven really mustn't have a high standard and if God doesn't have a high standard then why would we trust that God is good?
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The reason this give me no comfort is that if we can do enough good deeds to go to Heaven then Heaven really mustn't have a high standard and if God doesn't have a high standard then why would we trust that God is good?
This line of reasoning makes no sense except maybe to an elitist masochist.
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@wootah.
i respect your opinion but that doesnt sound..reasonable. if heaven is the aim, then a merciful God would make the "aim" approachable to humans.
also with regard to the question as to why we would trust a God who doesnt have high standards for heaven to be good...well same way i could ask a christian how he/she can believe in a God who needs a blood sacrifice to wash off the sins of mankind. No "good" God would need blood to atone for sins. atleast I cant rationalise it. maybe you could give me your opinion on that brother?peace.
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The reason this give me no comfort is that if we can do enough good deeds to go to Heaven then Heaven really mustn't have a high standard and if God doesn't have a high standard then why would we trust that God is good?
I don't get this.
How does 'enough good deeds' equate to a 'high standard' ? Or even a lower standard? Doesn't make any sense!And, no one is forcing you to trust that 'God is good'. That's the whole point, you trust God to be fair.
It might not make any sense but how does it make sense to an elitist masochist?
This doesn't make any sense either, unless you're a self-admitted masochist? Woot are you on
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@wootah.
i respect your opinion but that doesnt sound..reasonable. if heaven is the aim, then a merciful God would make the "aim" approachable to humans.
also with regard to the question as to why we would trust a God who doesnt have high standards for heaven to be good...well same way i could ask a christian how he/she can believe in a God who needs a blood sacrifice to wash off the sins of mankind. No "good" God would need blood to atone for sins. atleast I cant rationalise it. maybe you could give me your opinion on that brother?peace.
Yes, that is the next line of reasoning appealing to Allah's mercy. But it's not clear to me if you are agreeing with me that good deeds are insufficient and mercy is needed or not.
My understanding is that sin is death and the wages of sin are death. Sacrifice in the Old Testament served as a reminder of and way of apologizing for our sins. After Jesus there is no need for these sacrifices. Thinking on Jesus and being grateful is pretty much identical to the purpose of sacrifice that occurred in the Old Testament. To my mind it is a system that allows God to be good, just and merciful, without losing any part of those qualities in the process of saving our sorry selves. Good that the wicked will not go to heaven. Just that he judges us all fairly and Merciful in that he provided a way for us to be saved.
I think blood is a good metaphor for life and used as such. This seems like a good link explaining the idea of blood in Christianity. http//www.gotquestions.org/Christianity-bloody.html
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I don't get this.
How does 'enough good deeds' equate to a 'high standard' ? Or even a lower standard? Doesn't make any sense!And, no one is forcing you to trust that 'God is good'. That's the whole point, you trust God to be fair.
If God isn't good then what promise do you have that paradise will be good? (I mean if God was bad, why would he create heaven at all? And why would the good people get to go there?)
This doesn't make any sense either, unless you're a self-admitted masochist? Woot are you on
I was probably joking in that reply.
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Emil I don't think you're alone. I do get what you saying, I think I do anyway Is it possible that this is just a different way of thinking about how things are, rather than a different belief? What I mean is, unless I've not read properly, you are not denying that we will be punished and rewarded for our deeds, you are just saying that for you it's not the focus of this life. If that is what you're saying then I'm in agreement.
Rana, spot on. I dig you sis yay. It is definately a different way of thinking and not a different belief....that verse by Rabia says it all.
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IMO God's mercy is what saves us. no matter how much good we do, we also sin, whether the sin is big or small, at the end of the day we do commit sins. Without a Merciful God to forgive our sins we have no hope. however, there are certain prerequisites to attaining this mercy; belief and submission to the One True God, repentance and then good deeds.
our good deeds dont "buy" us heaven, rather they serve as a declaration of our submission to Him.
"...Except for those who are patient and do righteous deeds; those will have forgiveness and great reward." -1111"And when We said, "Enter this city and eat from it wherever you will in abundance, and enter the gate bowing humbly and say, 'Relieve us of our burdens.' We will forgive your sins for you, and We will increase the doers of good ." 258
"And those who, when they commit an immorality or wrong themselves , remember Allah and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who can forgive sins except Allah ? - and do not persist in what they have done while they know." 3135
"The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise." 417
from these verses and more i gather that forgiveness is related strongly to repentance. we need forgiveness to overcome the many sins we commit, knowingly and unknowingly, and our good deeds are an expression of our repentence. we need both to save us.faith alone or deeds alone dont account for much.
Your idea of a need for a sacrifice to atone for sins is based on the premise that God requires a sacrifice in the first place. this on its own destroys the idea of a Merciful God and reduces Him to a god who loves blood as atonement. a possible counter-argument may be that that is why God the merciful sent the sacrifice from Himself.(if i include trinity in this i may have to say that He sent Himself to be sacrificed).All this has the idea of God the "Merciful" requiring a sacrifice, which in its essence is pretty pagan and ritualistic.it may be based on the Old testament which highlights the need for sacrifice in many places, however if we say salvation or Gods mercy and forgiveness is solely dependent on faith in Jesus's resurrection we are contradicting many other biblical passages.
To my mind it is a system that allows God to be good, just and merciful, without losing any part of those qualities in the process of saving our sorry selves. Good that the wicked will not go to heaven. Just that he judges us all fairly and Merciful in that he provided a way for us to be saved.
IMO this belief system is downplaying the importance of action. Faith is integral, but it is nothing without action. He is not judging fairly if He is sending only the people who have faith in christ to heaven, just because of their faith. the idea of faith alone requirement for forgiveness and eternal life is contrary to the following passages
1."Therefor i tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your sins" Mark11;24-25
So for God to forgive your sins, its important that you forgive other peoples sins.2.As Jesus started on his way, a an ran upto him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he said, " what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered," No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother." Mark 1017-19so for eternal life you need to do all of the above. note that faith in jesus and his resurrection is not included.
- in Matthew 2531-46 jesus is explaining what is going to happen on the final judgement. all emphasis is placed on doing good deeds, being good to sick, poor etc. not once is belief in the sacrfice mentioned as a way to attain eternal life.
4."Love the LOrd your GOd with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like itlove your neighbour as yourself. All the Law and Prophets hang on to these two commandments"
even here no mention of belief in jesus's ressurection.- "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good, if you want to enter life, obey the commandments." Matthew 1917
no mention of sacrifice.
6."But i tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again anyone who says to his brother'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Therefor if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that yourbrother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar, first go and be reconciled with your brother, then come and offer your gift." Matthew 522-24
so being harsh with others can potentially lead you to hell. again actions are emphasised instead of just belief in jesus sent as a sacrifice.
7."Do not think i have come to abolish the law or the prophets.......Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches other to do the same will be called least in the KIngdom of Heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 517-19
again upholding the commandments is vital for entry to heaven. actions are stressed upon.
your initial statement
The reason this give me no comfort is that if we can do enough good deeds to go to Heaven then Heaven really mustn't have a high standard and if God doesn't have a high standard then why would we trust that God is good?
as the above biblical passages indicate, actions are vital to gain eternal life in heaven. so then by your argument even the God of the bible doesnt have such high standards for heaven since He is clearly emphasising on the need for good deeds to get eternal life.
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If God isn't good then what promise do you have that paradise will be good? (I mean if God was bad, why would he create heaven at all? And why would the good people get to go there?)
Again you repeat paradoxical questions...If you think God is 'bad', I don't see why you'd believe in him and still be taken seriously. Then again you really don't have to be.
I was probably joking in that reply.
Probably? Ah ok. When you do make up your mind, do let us know. And here I'd thought your reply was the joke.