What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article

[Wakas]

peace all,

The meaning of SuJuD acknowledges The Quran

www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Please post your feedback and/or any corrections here.

Thanks.

[Mazhar]

peace all,

The meaning of SuJuD acknowledges The Quran

www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Please post your feedback and/or any corrections here.

Thanks.

Peace,

This is also there in the Qur'aan.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/096.%20Al%20Alq/96.9a.gif
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/096.%20Al%20Alq/96.10a.gif
Have you noticed that man who advises/orally forbids a man/allegiant when he performs Salat?

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/096.%20Al%20Alq/96.15a.gif
Nay, it is certain that if he did not incline himself to desist from forbidding performance of Salat, We will certainly drag him by the forelock;

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/096.%20Al%20Alq/96.19a.gif
No, the better way is that you should not listen and accept the forbidding word of that man; and you prostrate and consciously incline yourself to get nearer .

Surat Al-Alq-96

[brook]

Salaam.

Assuming this is the case, as is commonly understood, if they stand behind them then it proves slightly awkward positioning since those behind would have to face both ways in this situation, looking through/past those in front of them. Even if they were at the sides, thus not having to look through/past them, they could not be in front of them, to remain strictly true to the verse. The reason for facing both ways is that during traditional Muslim prayer one tends to look at the ground or not far in front of them, so in terms of these people acting as a lookout in case of attack is not practical. This positioning would be restrictive thus not ideal in a potential life and death situation, but it is plausible.

There is nothing awkward or impractical in the positioning of the group behind them, because they are not acting as a lookout. The army already have their special units around them acting as a lookout; they don't need another group to do the same duty. Please remember that Muhammed is a perfect commander (3321, 3121).

The first group then is simply waiting for the salaat to finish. When it is over, the whole army will move on together.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[ths]

Salaam, I skimmed it, and there is nothing wrong, per se, with your article, except of course for a few absences of logic (such as in kharra sujjadan).
But everyone who is remotely familiar with the language knows that the word has multiple meanings and connotations.

The more you struggle to find new meanings for all the words indicating physical salah, the more you will simply have to face the fact that you cannot reinvent the Arabic language to suit your desires. These words are deep, but together they are very clear on the form of salah.

Until you can face that fact, you will be doing nothing more than re-hashing what we already know, and reinventing the Quran to suit your needs. Of course, this is easily done by someone who knows no Arabic whatsoever, and has yet to understand how 3alaa is used in the language.

Now please write articles for the following words

kharra - kh-r-r
Raka'a - r-k-3
qaama - q-w-m

[Wakas]

peace all,

Mazhar,
I can only assume you are attempting to make a link between "salat" mentioned in those verses and "SJD", or are implying I am deterring others from the "salat". If the former, it is weak and unevidenced, and if the latter, then simply untrue, as I recommend the "salat".

Hasan,
I can only assume you made up the part about there being other special units spread around (which I assume do not establish the salat), AND that the prophet being called a perfect commander, as there is no evidence for either. I should have been clearer, my article is based on what AQ actually says, not make believe.

ths,
The so-called "absence of logic" you mentioned fails to take into account the internal logic and coherence of AQ which helps us narrow down meanings and give us the most likely answer. It is a pity that in your article you failed to give a response to many of the sjd=prostration problems highlighted in this forum and in the article above.
I do not mind you claiming that I have no knowledge of Arabic, but you should be more accurate, I know "almost zero" Arabic. Of course, this has very little relevance to whether an understanding is correct however, as the proof is in the pudding, as they say.

It is heartening to see that Mazhar, Hasan and ths who presumably hold the view of sjd=prostration resort to ad hominen attacks, unevidenced claims and none tackle any of the points brought up in the article via evidence/logic based discussion. This suggests to me I'm on the right track ;D

[rraza]

It is heartening to see that Mazhar, Hasan and ths who presumably hold the view of sjd=prostration resort to ad hominen attacks, unevidenced claims and none tackle any of the points brought up in the article via evidence/logic based discussion. This suggests to me I'm on the right track Grin

lol. i like the spirit brother

[loxbox13]

I actually like the way wakas thinks, and the logic in his thinking, doesn't mean he's always right, but still, an open mind,

[brook]

I can only assume you made up the part about there being other special units spread around (which I assume do not establish the salat), AND that the prophet being called a perfect commander, as there is no evidence for either. I should have been clearer, my article is based on what AQ actually says, not make believe.

Salaam Wakas.

I have not made up the part about there being other special units spread around. For, it is a must in military operations to send a unit ahead and to leave a unit behind to act as a lookout. Muhammed was exemplary -- enough a commander (3321) to know and implement the rule.

During one particular battle for example he did assign a unit to act as a lookout even while the bulk of the army were actively fighting. This is history, I know, and history cannot be allowed to do the work of Quranic verses, but it still tells us a lot of facts. Plus, this history is supported by the relevant verses such as 3152-153.

As for the question whether they established the salaat on duty, that is irrelevant. It can be discussed separately.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[Wakas]

peace Hasan,

Thanks for clarifying you did not use Quranic evidence.

The critical flaw in your speculation is that 4102 itself says what to do so that the enemy does not rush upon you in one go, hence talks of two groups and taking of weapons etc thus IF what you propose was actually true and there were lookouts stationed about, it would render its advice irrelevant and illogical.

I recommend not trying to justify preconceived notions.

[Mazhar]

Mazhar,
I can only assume you are attempting to make a link between "salat" mentioned in those verses and "SJD", or are implying I am deterring others from the "salat". If the former, it is weak and unevidenced, and if the latter, then simply untrue, as I recommend the "salat".

I pointed out the relevant verse where Salat and Prostration are mentioned, with reference to a person who propagates/forbids others to perform Salat. And it is advised not to listen him and instead direction is given to "Prostrate and get nearer".

Why one should presume it an attack unless he is guilty conscious, instead of considering it a reference of an occurrence which remained out of focus while studying the occurrences of sjd? May be taking this into account the whole perception gets changed.

[brook]

4102 itself says what to do so that the enemy does not rush upon you in one go...

Salaam Wakas. I am sorry to say it, but you are terribly mistaken about the rerason why they need their weapons ready even during their in that life and death situation. They need them in order to defend themselves when the enemy attacks. The enemy will attack no matter what.

Please refer to 4104. The attack did happen and the believers had such terrible time that "the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat." (925)

You can never expect professional commanders to take you seriously if you insist that an army may do without rear and forward teams to look out. They do their best to discover the whereabouts of the enemy but they may still fail. In the case we are discussing they failed.

4102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them*, then let a group from among them stand/establish** with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...

*can be translated as for/to/unto them, e.g. see 2109, 575
**again, it can mean "stand" figuratively, e.g. see usage in 4127

Please excuse me again but from these words I cannot decide what you really think is the that verses 4101-103 deal with.

Is it
a Quran lesson,
a briefing on the battle tactics as a friend here has suggested,
an attempt to boost the morale of the believers in that life and death situation,
or what?

If I knew your idea, I would be able to tell you whether it is plausible or not.

Perace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[Wakas]

peace all,

Mazhar,
On the contrary, rather than suspecting a guilty concious, I offered the two possible options of what you may have been alluding to. Your posts are often not clear, as I'm sure others have noted. As you know one does not "prostrate and come near" physically, thus it is obvious, the "come near" part is not body-physical, implying just like the part prior, i.e. the SJD.

Hasan,
Unfortunately, your post contains multiple illogical/unevidenced statements

I am sorry to say it, but you are terribly mistaken about the rerason why they need their weapons ready even during their in that life and death situation. They need them in order to defend themselves when the enemy attacks.

And why do you think I think they need them? To make music?

The enemy will attack no matter what.

Ahh, so its a certainty is it? Tell us how you deduced this from The Quran?

You can never expect professional commanders to take you seriously if you insist that an army may do without rear and forward teams to look out.

This just shows you did not understand what I wrote about 4102. See Asad's blatantly obvious comment.

In the case we are discussing they failed.

Quranic/logical evidence?

For my view on what the regular/timed salat is, see http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Please note, I will not reply any further unless your statements are evidenced and clearly explained. I am only interested in logical discussion.

[Mazhar]

Mazhar,
On the contrary, rather than suspecting a guilty concious, I offered the two possible options of what you may have been alluding to. Your posts are often not clear, as I'm sure others have noted. As you know one does not "prostrate and come near" physically, thus it is obvious, the "come near" part is not body-physical, implying just like the part prior, i.e. the SJD.

Peace Wakas,

Thouh I know that you presume from mention of various words in an Arabic-Enfglish dictionary under a Root that any of it could be applied anywhere, but I presume that you do know basic and general principles of Arabic language to understand construction of a sentence for which reason it should not atleast be unclear for you.

Two imperative verbs are joined through Waw, conjunction which is here reflecting that the first act will yeild the result given in the second verb which is of Form-VIII having reflexive causative meanings.

What would one gain/achieve by humbling before somebody, paying obeisance, or bowing and prostrating him/Him? Simple object/purpose is to get nearer to him/Him, to become focus of his/His attention.

[brook]

Peace Wakas.

(1)I noted that you said they needed their weapons ready in order to intimidate the enemy and thus prevent them from, in your own words, "rushing upon you in one go". You did not say they kept their weapons within their reach in order to defend themselves when the attack happened.

You fail to see the difference between prevention and defense.

(2)An-Nisaa 104 And slacken not in following up the enemy. If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have hope from Allah, while they have none...

-A fierce battle took place.
-The two sides suffered similar hardships.

-Muhammed did not start it; otherwise, he would have chosen a more convenient time for his army to suffer fewer hardships. Please refer to 925-26.

-The believers did not give up because God gave them hope for things worthwhile such as afterlife.
-The enemy gave in earlier because they were too afraid to die and get finished for good.
-Although the believers were still licking their wounds; God ordered them not to slacken to follow up the fleeing enemy.

(3)Asad's "blatantly obvious comment" has got nothing to do with the rule that it is a must for every army to send a team ahead and leave one behind to act as a lookout.

Army officers of their right mind will never take you seriously if you insist that you can do without those teams.

Prophet Muhammed was in his right mind. He acted in an exemplary manner -- in combat (3321). He did assign a special team to act as a lookout even while his army were actively fighting (3152-153).

(4)Please note, I will not reply any further unless your statements are evidenced and clearly explained. I am only interested in logical discussion.

You are absolutely free not to reply, resorting to your subjective excuses. But please watch your manners. I am not dying to reason with you.

I am still waiting for your "clearly explained" reply to my question What do you really think is the that verses 4101-103 deal with?

Is it
a Quran lesson,
a briefing on the battle tactics as a friend here suggested,
an attempt to boost the morale of the believers in that life and death situation,
or what?

If I knew your idea, I would be able to tell you whether it is plausible or not.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

[Wakas]

peace,

Mazhar,
Please cite your evidence for the following unevidenced statement "Two imperative verbs are joined through Waw, conjunction which is here reflecting that the first act will yeild the result given in the second verb which is of Form-VIII having reflexive causative meanings."

Even if you can cite evidence, it will not affect my view. At best, all it will do is weight it a bit more in one direction or the other. Far from definitive.

Hasan,
Not only do you not understand what I wrote, you make up your own version of what I said, and do not answer my questions. Please re-read multiple times, and try again.

[Mazhar]

Mazhar,
Please cite your evidence for the following unevidenced statement "Two imperative verbs are joined through Waw, conjunction which is here reflecting that the first act will yeild the result given in the second verb which is of Form-VIII having reflexive causative meanings."

Even if you can cite evidence, it will not affect my view. At best, all it will do is weight it a bit more in one direction or the other. Far from definitive.

Should I presume that you do not even understand what and mean and signify?

And you seem to have ignored a simple fact

What would one gain/achieve by humbling before somebody, paying obeisance, or bowing and prostrating him/Him? Simple object/purpose is to get nearer to him/Him, to become focus of his/His attention.

[Wakas]

peace Mazhar,

Yes, please presume that. Now, please explain and cite your evidence.

And I ignored the so-called "simple fact" because it is irrelevant. However, there is a chance I have not appreciated the point you are making, so please re-explain very clearly and how it relates to what I wrote.

[Mazhar]

peace Mazhar,

Yes, please presume that. Now, please explain and cite your evidence.

And I ignored the so-called "simple fact" because it is irrelevant. However, there is a chance I have not appreciated the point you are making, so please re-explain very clearly and how it relates to what I wrote.

Peace Wakas,

Evidence was there only if you took that seriously. What does an appositive particle do? Does it not refer and signify a relationship?

An act is always done for a purpose intended to be achieved and is done only when the doer expects or considers there being a possibility of realizing that purpose/objective by the act he performs.

Now please ponder and find what could be the possible objective/purpose-expected result/realization of sjd and pl let us know that.

[Wakas]

peace Mazhar,

My point was you saying it is a specific pattern or usage of an appositive particle or whatever does not prove anything without actual evidence it is what you said it is. Hence my request for evidence. Since you have provided none despite being asked twice, I will assume you cannot back up what you said with evidence.

Also, the other points you brought up are non-points in the sense that they do not add to the discussion in any definitive way.

If you had brought up an issue that made a significant point or if true would disprove anything I said in my article, then I'd be interested. What surprises me is your concern for minor aspects of an understanding without tackling the bigger issues. This of course leads one to think you cannot tackle them.

[Mazhar]

peace Mazhar,

My point was you saying it is a specific pattern or usage of an appositive particle or whatever does not prove anything without actual evidence it is what you said it is. Hence my request for evidence. Since you have provided none despite being asked twice, I will assume you cannot back up what you said with evidence.

Also, the other points you brought up are non-points in the sense that they do not add to the discussion in any definitive way.

If you had brought up an issue that made a significant point or if true would disprove anything I said in my article, then I'd be interested. What surprises me is your concern for minor aspects of an understanding without tackling the bigger issues. This of course leads one to think you cannot tackle them.

Peace Wakas.

This is reflection of insisting to remain stuck up with the idea that has once come to mind and not paying slightest heed to what simple and plain propositions have been made. You have arrived at this conclusion without having given consideration to the objective and purpose of doing all that which could have given you plain and simple meanings of the word you are trying to understand.

Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that the argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat cannot be made using The Quran.

Why should you do all this? What you want to gain out of it? Please narrate objective that you personally wish to obtain by sjd, in whatever manner you wish to do this.