What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article

Wakas

peace all,

Important Update

It has been over 2 years since I posted the article on "sujud" (here and other places)
The meaning of SuJuD acknowledges The Quran
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

And in that time no-one attempted to tackle all the issues brought up. In fact, in this thread only a minority of the issues raised were discussed. Yet we frequently see people claim "sujud" means "physical prostration".... and sometimes even after this article is pointed out to them they continue with this view. I dont mind that per se, but one would think they would prefer to discuss the seemingly problematic issues. If there is silence, which there frequently is, then the only options are

they have no or problematic answers
they have answers but prefer not to discuss them
they consider the issues raised as non-issues (i.e. weak points) hence no need to respond
they didn't bother reading it

So, let's find out which option it is. I would like all those who think "sujud" means "physical prostration" to answer the following, taken from the article. Some will be minor points, some more significant

Re SJD to/for adam/mankind - 234, 711-12, 1529-32, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3872-76
Issue if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire&#039 could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?
Re 2218, 556 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
1315 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?
Re 1648-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD?
Re 2724 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
2725 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 2724, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?
Re 8421-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this?

Actually tackling and discussing the issues will help increase our understanding.

To be continued...

Mazhar

Thus, the most appropriate meanings are submissive, to honour, to pay respect.

These are the basic meanings but with connotation of act. But we must keep in mind that the basic meanings of a Root and word do not exhaust when they are used in a different semantic field, relational area, while necessarily retaining the base meanings. This phenomenon is particular to the words which are other than those coined to denote and identify a specific tangible object, or person, i.e. substantive nouns. Actions and gestures, bodily actions or body language has various levels of intensity, depth, magnitude proportionally reflecting the feel and state of heart and mind.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.107a.gif

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/05.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Sura%20007/35.%20Kheru%20Khe%20Ra%20Ra/4.gif Is this voluntary act needed to honour, to pay respect.

How will we reconcile?

Root

Wakas

Continued...

Re 4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response?
Re 258, 4154, 7161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?

8 ) Re Re 7120, 2070, 2646
2070 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure

Re 6842-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes why mention a shin at all? - response?
Re 17107-109 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else?

To be continued...

Mazhar

8 ) Re Re 7120, 2070, 2646
2070 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure

Salamun alaika,

The Proxy Subject of the Passive Verb are the Illusionists. Thus it is made unimbiguously evident that their act was voluntary not forced upon them. And at all three places it is immediatley followed by circumstantial clause. It is plural active participle having built in pronoun referring to the performers of the act which is signified by the verb from which it is derived.

Wakas

peace Mazhar,

You said

...that their act was voluntary not forced upon them. And at all three places it is immediatley followed by circumstantial clause. It is plural active participle having built in pronoun referring to the performers...

Can you clarify are you saying the performer and receiver of the passive verb are the illusionists? If so, can you please provide another example in Quran wherein the performer/doer and receiver of a passive verb are one and the same person? Thanks. There may well be many other examples but it seemed odd to me, hence bringing it up.

And don't forget the rest of the Qs ;D

Re SJD to/for adam/mankind - 234, 711-12, 1529-32, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3872-76
Issue if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire&#039 could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?
Re 2218, 556 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
1315 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly?
Re 1648-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD?
Re 2724 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
2725 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 2724, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to?
Re 8421-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this?
Re 4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response?
Re 258, 4154, 7161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?

8 ) Re Re 7120, 2070, 2646
2070 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure

Re 6842-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes why mention a shin at all? - response?
Re 17107-109 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else?

Mazhar

peace Mazhar,

You said

Quote
...that their act was voluntary not forced upon them. And at all three places it is immediatley followed by circumstantial clause. It is plural active participle having built in pronoun referring to the performers...
Can you clarify are you saying the performer and receiver of the passive verb are the illusionists? If so, can you please provide another example in Quran wherein the performer/doer and receiver of a passive verb are one and the same person? Thanks. There may well be many other examples but it seemed odd to me, hence bringing it up.

Salamun alaika,

I hope the difference between an active and passive verb is understood. Passive Verb has Proxy - Ergative Subject. The Illusionists--definite noun is in nominative case ---are the Proxy Subject of this verb. The action in the Passive verb is not directed towards someone else but the illusionists themselves. The next word "Sajidena" is active participle ---those who perform some act --and that act is only that which is in the verb from which "sajidena" is made. It is in accusative state, which means it is Circumstantial clause. Therby, everything is manifestly evident.

Mazhar

And don't forget the rest of the Qs

Please just go through the link earlier provided.

Scribbler

Peace be upon you, Wakas.

Let me be very honest with you. I didn't bother to read your arguments regarding sujud to find out whether you've been successful on proving that it does not mean "physical prostration" or not in a Quran's perspective. It's because when I read those verses of sujud, I, myself, feel that it may not mean physical prostration in all circumstances, although in some verses it is possible that it could be talking about prostrating physically depending on the context.

But even if you were fully able to prove with one hundred percent irrefutable evidence that there is no way sujud can mean prostrating physically anywhere in the Quran, I would still continue to make physical prostrations in my salat, because the current form of salat that we have today does NOT contravene any verse of the Quran. It rather fulfills the fundamental requirement of the Quran in terms of establishing salat. Therefore, it wouldn't matter to me whatever you prove sujud to mean, as I find absolutely no cogent reason to reinvent the practice to create more differences between me and the traditional Muslims.

Peace. peace

Man_of_Faith

Peace Scribbler,

Sujud may mean "to submit" (or humble yourself) based on the context. What is more submitting than to physically prostrate and glorify your Lord?

If now God did not require us to prostrate I do so anyway to show my deepest respect to Him.

Prayers I do not exclude at all because there is, according to me, too much circumstantial evidence to prove them. I had one example in another thread with a couple of verses going something like this "And say Oh Lord, admit me an honorable admittance, let me depart an honorable departure, grant me from You a powerful support. The Truth has prevailed, falsehood has vanished, falsehood will inevitably vanish". If there is no prayer, why is this phrase aimed at God with a say command?

And, the first chapter of Quran is asking God for something, it is really a prayer rather than an informative text. You pray to God that you receive guidance, the seven verses are aimed towards God and not to us.

The question in my mind is rather; what is the correct prayer, not if there is a prayer or not. I have seen many different sorts of prayers kneeling, crossing hands, raising hands in air, prostration, bowing, or rather combinations of them. Before I became knowledgeable about islam I simply cried out to the Lord and my prayer was heard anyway.

I pray to show that I submit to God, glorify Him and implore about various issues. And I pray a modified version of the traditional muslim prayer, especially noteworthy for my lifted hands in the air 45 degrees.

Well, I take that all righteous deeds you do show the sujud to God. Glorifying God is part of it, but not exclusively. Your living as a muslim shows that you submit to God.

Hope my words were not too dull to read.

God bless you and all other people

Wakas

peace all,

Mazhar, as I said, all I am requesting is one example from Quran of what I asked for of the passive verb. Simple.

Scribbler, I find your view puzzling. You say if it were 100% proven sujud did not mean "physical prostration" you'd continue to do it anyway. In other words, you'd go by what you/others think it is or what you want to do (i.e. whim/desire) rather than going by what God told you sujud is in Quran. This is a potentially dangerous path, and Quran is full of examples where this can lead.
You further say "...because the current form of salat that we have today does NOT contravene any verse of the Quran...". Well, it depends on what you mean by "current form of salat that we have today" but I assume you mean a Quranic version of the salat we have today, as there some things in the common Traditional salat that are very questionable, e.g. praising others in one's salat etc.
Since you admit you did not read the article you will have missed the closing paragraph
"Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that no credible argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat can be made using The Quran."
So I am not against people physically prostrating if they wish, however what I am against is people saying things about Quran with little or zero evidence. All I want is people to weigh up the evidence, then they can make an informed decision.... not avoid questions then reach a conclusion. This is not prudent.

MofF, you said "If now God did not require us to prostrate I do so anyway to show my deepest respect to Him." - one could suggest showing deepest respect for God would be to do what He asks of us by way of deeds. In any case, I think we can all agree Quran never prioritises the external over the internal or physical display over sincerity of one's heart etc so clearly a physical expression such as prostration is only one, out of a whole array of things one can do to show one's conviction/respect/etc.

Man_of_Faith

Peace Wakas,

Yes. I thought that was clear from my post.

But despite this sujud I cannot exclude prayers completely, I am sorry but that is not my Faith. I call unto my Lord and I do it in various respectful ways such as kneeling or the likes.

Although we differ on things we actually agree on certain things as according to what you wrote to Scribbler.

Prayers mean nothing if you are not worthy of God's proximity due to unrighteous acts and living. But I doubt it is useless to beg for something even if you are "bad".

God bless you

unknownuser

Peace @Wakas

Yes, the word sajada has different meaning, and the selection of the meaning is depending on surounding sentences.So it will fit to the verse.

I have a question for you

In 4829".... Their distinction/mark/asyari is in their faces, as a result of prostrating/sajada........" (Free-Minds translation)

If sujud is not physical prostating, then what is mark/asyari in verse 4829?

Maybe this question by an arabic amateur like me sound funny , but hope you can answer it.

Wakas

peace MofF,

I have no problem with "prayer". Quran is full of petitions to God, praise, thanks etc. This is more correctly termed "dua" in my view however.

In any case, continued....

Re 8420-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
3215 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate - what is your view?
Re 4102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all , then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us , but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?

zone

Peace @Wakas

Yes, the word sajada has different meaning, and the selection of the meaning is depending on surounding sentences.So it will fit to the verse.

I have a question for you

In 4829".... Their distinction/mark/asyari is in their faces, as a result of prostrating/sajada........" (Free-Minds translation)

If sujud is not physical prostating, then what is mark/asyari in verse 4829?

Maybe this question by an arabic amateur like me sound funny , but hope you can answer it.

Peace Earthdom.

Sorry to interupt. I am sure when I have met and known you for quite some times, I will recognize your goodness, from your character, manifested by your marks (bisimahum) and your face (wajhah) of submission in the way of Allah in doing many things righteous. Also, note that believers can recognize each other in the Hereafter by their marks and faces. (see 746, 74

This is how I learn to discover the meanings of Allah?s word from the Quran, by studying the word and its usage in context of the verses as it appears in the Book of Guidance. The Quran is self-explanatory and consistent in the way it unfolds the meanings of things.

Yes , whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve. (2112)

On the Day faces will turn white and faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, , "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject." (3106)

But as for those whose faces will turn white, within the mercy of Allah. They will abide therein eternally. (3107)

And who is better in religion than one who submits his face (wajhahu) to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth? And Allah took Abraham as an intimate friend. (4125)

For them who have done good is the best and extra. No darkness will cover their faces, nor humiliation. Those are companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally (1026)
For each is a direction toward which it faces. So race to good. Wherever you may be, Allah will bring you forth all together. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.(214

Marks (sima)

for the poor who have been restricted for the cause of Allah , unable to move about in the land. An ignorant would think them self-sufficient because of their restraint, but you will know them by their sign (bisimahum). They do not ask people persistently . And whatever you spend of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it. (2273)

And if We willed, We could show them to you, and you would know them by their mark; but you will surely know them by the tone of speech. And Allah knows your deeds.(4730)

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.

Wakas

peace earthdom,

I have a question for you

In 4829".... Their distinction/mark/asyari is in their faces, as a result of prostrating/sajada........" (Free-Minds translation)

If sujud is not physical prostating, then what is mark/asyari in verse 4829?

See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Their mark/distinction/identifying feature is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.

It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD.

This fits perfectly with the discussion on 7120, 2070, 2646 in the article. Quite simply, when one gives rightful recognition/acknowledgement (submits, honours, pays respect) to God's Words/guidance then this will result in positive growth, everything stems from that realisation, it leaves its mark/impression/influence upon the person guiding their direction/growth etc. This is their identifying feature, what distinguishes them from the rest etc. It's quite a beautiful description.

Scribbler

Scribbler, I find your view puzzling. You say if it were 100% proven sujud did not mean "physical prostration" you'd continue to do it anyway. In other words, you'd go by what you/others think it is or what you want to do (i.e. whim/desire) rather than going by what God told you sujud is in Quran. This is a potentially dangerous path, and Quran is full of examples where this can lead.
You further say "...because the current form of salat that we have today does NOT contravene any verse of the Quran...". Well, it depends on what you mean by "current form of salat that we have today" but I assume you mean a Quranic version of the salat we have today, as there some things in the common Traditional salat that are very questionable, e.g. praising others in one's salat etc.
Since you admit you did not read the article you will have missed the closing paragraph
"Please note, that is not to say body-physical acts are not allowed. A human being is composed of mind, body and spirit and often body-physical acts can serve to show respect, self-abasement and humility, used as a greeting, or focus our mind etc such as the practice of meditation, tai chi, yoga or kneeling when in supplication to God etc. It simply means that no credible argument for SJD=prostration and therefore prostration during upholding/establishing the salat can be made using The Quran."
So I am not against people physically prostrating if they wish, however what I am against is people saying things about Quran with little or zero evidence. All I want is people to weigh up the evidence, then they can make an informed decision.... not avoid questions then reach a conclusion. This is not prudent.

Peace be with you, Wakas.

Allow me to explain myself once again. But first, I'd like to apologize cause it seems like my last post is unclear to you as I should have explained more clearly.

What I really wanted to say was, if you bring proofs supporting your ideas concerning sujud that it cannot mean prostrating physically, and if I and everyone on this forum fail to refute your arguements, even then I would make physical prostrations in my salat. It's because failing to refute someone's points doesn't always have to mean that the person didn't make any mistake on his research, or that the research doesn't contain any errors. And I'm pretty sure that this is one of the reasons why people tend to adhere to the concept of physical prostration even after doubts enter their hearts. Besides, there's always going to be a voice in my head telling me, "what if brother Wakas is wrong, and what if making physical prostrations is actually a requirement of the guidance?". Hence, I would stick to the form of physically bowing and prostrating in my salat, as per my understanding, I'm not violating any verse of the Quran, and neither do I believe I'm following "whims/desires", but something which is making me more spiritually connected to my God.

And yes, when I said "current form", I meant a Quranic version of the current form.

Peace.

Wakas

peace Scribbler,

Thanks for clarifying.

For the record, it is very possible my research contains errors, hence my article disclaimer and preference of discussion of the points. This is a key aspect to improving our understanding.
And it would be whim/desire IF, as you said, something was proven "one hundred percent irrefutable evidence" and you did something else. But if you have/had doubts then that would not be the case. However, in such a situation I try to opt for the most evidenced answer.

Mazhar

Re SJD to/for adam/mankind - 234, 711-12, 1529-32, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3872-76
Issue if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire&#039 could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view?

Assalamo alaikum;

Basic initial meanings Feel of reverence and its expression through physical gesture-body language-lowering of head in state chin moving towards chest and gaze going down. It is a relational word-a relationship between the Reverent and the Revered. Reverent and the Revered could be any object or person.

The basic perception infolded and signification conveyed by this Root, in the words of Ibne Faris , and others is as under

(&#1583 . . .

This is, more or less, explained in Lane's Lexicon, along with other quotes from Lexicons, in this quote

1 , (S, A, Msb, K, &c.,) inf. n. , (Msb,) He was, or became, lowly, humble, or submissive; syn. , (S, A, K, TA,) or , and (Msb) or he bent him-self down towards the ground (Aboo-Bekr, TA ) the primary signification of is together with . (Bd in ii. 32.) And He lowered his head, and bent himself; (AA, S, Mgh, K said of a man;

It may be seen that the original, fundamental, basic meanings are the feel of lowliness, humility, submissiveness by one for someone else, which is manifested by lowering of one's head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes going downwards, or bending oneself down. The basic perception unfolds that this is a relational word-it happens or takes existence only when there are two entities. Moreover, evidently it is not an abstract or theoretical proposition but a physical act; something expressed, conveyed, and submitted through body language instead of verbal expression. This act signifies and demonstratively portrays-parallels one's thought of surrender and submission reflecting acceptance of his relative humble state and position as against the exalted, honoured, elevated stature, and glory of other. This gives us its initial perception and meanings as obeisance, homage, respectful, saluting gesture and behaviour towards/for someone else.

The relational aspect, physical nature and the reflection of the relativity in stature, position and elevation of the subject and the one for whom this act is done is explained at first instance of use of this Root in the Qur'aan
Listen attentively; at the point in time when We had said for the Angles, "You people pay obeisance for Adam "

Root Basic initial meanings Feel of reverence and its expression through physical gesture-body language

alikhan0

The more you struggle to find new meanings for all the words indicating physical salah, the more you will simply have to face the fact that you cannot reinvent the Arabic language to suit your desires. These words are deep, but together they are very clear on the form of salah.

Until you can face that fact, you will be doing nothing more than re-hashing what we already know, and reinventing the Quran to suit your needs. Of course, this is easily done by someone who knows no Arabic whatsoever, and has yet to understand how 3alaa is used in the language.

Wakas

peace Mazhar,
You never answered the question! You have made several posts in this thread yet rarely, if ever, answered any of the questions. Please refrain from posting in this thread IF you are not going to address what I'm asking. What physical body gesture did iblees do according to you? If you do not have a view and just think iblees did something but cannot articulate what that might have been just say so............ then move onto the next question, IF you intend on actually answering it that is.

peace alikhan,
It seems the only people struggling are the ones I've posed the questions to, perhaps including yourself. Hence the silence and evasion.
And it is incorrect to claim I know no Arabic whatsoever, I know a little Arabic, but I'm not really interested in unevidenced claims and ad-hominen such as your approach, as I like to say "the proof is in the pudding" - people can read this entire thread and note down how many times something I wrote was shown to be incorrect and/or how many times people have actually answered any of the questions raised in the article. You may find it quite telling.