What is the meaning of SuJuD according to The Quran? - new article
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w/salaam Mazhar,
It's quite simple according to Quran iblees did not SJD, and you said "This word (i.e. SJD) has compulsorily physical connotation." - thus what did iblees do to show this non-SJD according to you - whereas malaika did something to show SJD - what did they do according to you? Feel free to suggest anything plausible according to you.
If you do not understand the question then don't reply, or if you reply without an answer, I will not respond.
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w/salaam Mazhar,
It's quite simple according to Quran iblees did not SJD, and you said "This word (i.e. SJD) has compulsorily physical connotation." - thus what did iblees do to show this non-SJD according to you - whereas malaika did something to show SJD - what did they do according to you? Feel free to suggest anything plausible according to you.
If you do not understand the question then don't reply, or if you reply without an answer, I will not respond.
This shows me as if you not even opened the link.
Iblees did not do it. His explanation - argument for not having done it, also shows what this word means.
Consequently, in compliance they did pay obeisance. However, Ieb'lees demurred while he made his own self obsessed/puffed with pride of grandeur and superiority.
The relational aspect is conspicuously evident; one is the performer and the other is the one for or before whom the act is performed. The sincere feel and passion paralleled by the physical gesture of body parts bowing reflects willful and affectionate acknowledgement of the greatness, grandeur and superiority of the one for or before whom one demonstrates it. The essence, or the inherent consideration for the performance of this act, at one's own inclination, before or for someone is to seek his attention, acknowledgement, and thereby become nearer to the exalted.
The act of Ieb'lees and his state of mind, when he demurred to comply with the command, further reflects the denotation of the act signified by this verb. He was obsessed-puffed with pride of grandeur and superiority. What impression and message is conveyed, and is gathered by onlookers watching this physical gesture, body language? It is quite vividly disclosed by quoting the plea-so called logic of Ieb'lees for holding himself back in paying obeisance for Adam alahissalam
Allah the Exalted enquired, asking "O Ieb'lees! What is that which hampered-restrained-held you back that you might not humble-show obeisance at the point in time when I directed you for this?"
Allah the Exalted enquired, asking "O Ieb'lees! What was that for you which prompted that you may not be the reverent along with those who humble in obeisance?"
Allah the Exalted enquired, asking, "O Ieb'lees, what is that which hindered/prevented you that you should show obeisance for the one whom I created with My Hands?Is it for reason that you thought yourself great or/as if have you been from amongst the arrogates-haughty?"
His answer discloses the manifestations and exposures linked in doing the commanded act http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/001.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%20002/2.034/150.%20Isjidoo%20Seen%20Jeem%20Daal/28.gif
He replied, "I am superior than him.
You have created me from fire, and You have created him from clay"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/Temp%2001%2017.062.gif
He said, "Have you seen this one whom You have dignified and honoured upon me".Notwithstanding, that Ieb'lees is perhaps the first pseudo-intellectual, his understanding of exposure and manifestation, which is caused by "you pay obeisance", discloses the essence embedded in this bodily act-gesture-body language. It is visibly concrete exposure of feel and acceptance of relative humility, smallness, less importance, and inferiority in state, position and honour than the one whom obeisance is paid. He, in his own assessment, weighed himself as superior/better than the one whom he was asked to pay obeisance. Therefore, he did not find it befitting to pay obeisance to the one whom he thought inferior to his self. His support argument and "logic" for presuming himself superior, indicating that rather he is more deserving to be paid obeisance, was the base material of their respective creation. He did not become a reverent for the one whom Allah the Exalted dignified and honored upon him. This is reflective of his act "he made his own self obsessed/puffed with pride of grandeur and superiority".
The above Episode has indicated that the basic or initial perception infolded in the Root relates to a feel of reverence for someone, other than one's self, and its tangible expression by physical gesture-body language-lowering of head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes/gaze going downwards. It demonstrates acceptance of ones relative inferior-junior status, humbleness, less significance with simultaneous recognition of other's dignified, honored, elevated stature, rank, position, significance, importance, grandeur worthy of respect and obeisance.
It thus conspicuously reveals that the state of mind, i.e. the feel precedes the gesture, its expression by body language. The Root has been used at other occurrences also where the relational field restricts its meanings to its basic-initial signification, i.e. feel of humbleness with head down on chin in humility posture.
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Peace,
For once I agree with Mazhar.
God bless
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peace Mazhar,
I did NOT ask why iblees didn't SJD.
In any case since you did not directly answer, judging by what you said it seems your indirect answer is the malaika did "tangible expression by physical gesture-body language-lowering of head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes/gaze going downwards." but iblees did not.A one or two line answer was all that was required.
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peace Mazhar,
I did NOT ask why iblees didn't SJD.
In any case since you did not directly answer, judging by what you said it seems your indirect answer is the malaika did "tangible expression by physical gesture-body language-lowering of head in the state chin moving towards chest along with eyes/gaze going downwards." but iblees did not.A one or two line answer was all that was required.
Salamun alaika,
If you do not listen the reason given by Iblees for not doing the commanded act, how would you appreciate the core meaning of the word?
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Reference post
I am just compiling the list of Qs into one post as I may refer to it in future discussions etc
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
For those who consider "sujud" to mean "physical prostration"
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Re SJD to/for adam/mankind - 234, 711-12, 1529-32, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3872-76
Issue if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire' could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view? -
Re 2218, 556 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
1315 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly? -
Re 1648-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD? -
Re 2724 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
2725 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 2724, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to? -
Re 8421-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this? -
Re 4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response? -
Re 258, 4154, 7161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?
8 ) Re Re 7120, 2070, 2646
2070 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure-
Re 6842-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes why mention a shin at all? - response? -
Re 17107-109 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else? -
Re 8420-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
3215 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate - what is your view? -
Re 4102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all , then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us , but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?
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Peace brother Wakas,
I have just published a German translation of your last post right here http//forum.meine-islam-reform.de/index.php?topic=902.0
Maybe some new input can be gathered hereby. If this happens, I will let you know, unless the god wills otherwise.
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peace everyone...
I am aware that this is an old topic, but it will never be old for believers.. coz it is about word sujud..
In fact very recently one of my good friends a believer insisting me make physical prostration (sujud) and physical kneeling (ruku) but I am much satisfied with none physical approach for both sujud and ruku... i am not here to convince any how it is but i am much satisfied with quranic verses that they are not physical but within self...
He is convinced and insisting me to do physical prostration and failing to do may end up in disbelieving in God and perhaps satan would have distracted me...
So i chose this particular discussion thread... i would like to know from specially those who take quran alone as guidance and still understands sujud and ruku as physical actions.. What makes you perceive so...and those who take sujud and ruku as non physical action while believers, would you also explain why you are satisfied as non physical ...
btw i am not against or not consider that doing physical prostration in whatever the way they feel good to obey God and to show their submission is wrong... coz to near God one can choose his own way... isn't it? ... in front of a king one can cry and speak or one can with total humility in words and expression in face... but both may speak with full of obedience to the King... same way, physical expression in the form of conventional way of sujud is not mandatory in my opinion.. but not wrong either... but implying that sujud and ruku can only mean physical reaction and compelling others to do so may be wrong...
that's my take..
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Reference post
I am just compiling the list of Qs into one post as I may refer to it in future discussions etc
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
For those who consider "sujud" to mean "physical prostration"
-
Re SJD to/for adam/mankind - 234, 711-12, 1529-32, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3872-76
Issue if taken as a commonly understood physical prostration, it seems odd that angels/controllers or iblees (made of 'smokeless fire' could do this in a defined physical visible form, but it is possible - what is your view? -
Re 2218, 556 - SJD to/for God who is in the heavens/earth, and the sun/moon/stars/mountains/trees/creatures and many of the people
1315 ...to/for God SJD who is in the heavens and the earth, willingly and unwillingly, and their shadows in the mornings and late-afternoons.
Issue Contextually implying that the same SJD is done by the shadows as well as who is in the heavens/earth, meaning it is unlikely for it to mean prostrate here - what is the "sujud" of inanimate objects?
If we accept that someone may prostrate physically (nose and forehead on ground) willingly, how can we understand this unwillingly? Does God push people on their faces forcefully so that they fall down on their noses and foreheads unwillingly? -
Re 1648-50 Can they not look to a thing God created? Its shadow turns to the right and the left, SuJaD to/for God and/while they are humble.
Issues If we take the above as prostrations/prostrating (as some translations do), then this would clearly imply that no matter which direction the shadow faces it is STILL prostrating to/for God, i.e. God is everywhere, which links with "to God belongs the east and west so wherever you turn there is God's face/regard", see 2115. This strongly and clearly implies direction is irrelevant here - what is your view on this?
Since SJD is in the Arabic plural (more than two) we can infer that each and every point in the shadow's movement is a SJD. How is it showing this SJD? -
Re 2724 "And I found her and her people SJuD to/for the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works/deeds appear good to them, so averting/hindering them from the path, so they are not guided."
2725 "Will they not SJuD to/for God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?"
Issues Note it says the hoopoe "found" (wajad) them, not "saw" (raayt) them as in Joseph's dream in which he saw the moon/sun/planets SJD to/for him. Of course, moon/sun/planets do not physically prostrate as humans do, so what Joseph saw was something else - how were the sun/moon/planets giving sujud to Joseph?
So let us assume it means a traditional prostration in 2724, how can one identify whom the prostration is done to? -
Re 8421-22 And when the Quran/reading is recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who have rejected/concealed are denying.
Issue Interestingly, if sujud=prostration here then this implies God wishes the audience to not only accept what is said but ALSO get down on their hands and knees and prostrate physically (to whom/what?). This seems unusual. What is your understanding of this? -
Re 4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD.
Issues Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short - what is your view?
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face - response? -
Re 258, 4154, 7161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Issue Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating - response?
8 ) Re Re 7120, 2070, 2646
2070 Then the magicians were cast* SuJaD. They said "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
*Arabic uL'QiYa is in the passive perfect form, meaning the object (i.e. magicians) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. Using cross-reference the most likely meaning of this word is "cast" and is a likely play on words due to the casting done in the previous context.
Issues IF it is translated as physically thrown/cast down (as done in most translations), since it is passive, then one must ask who/what physically threw them down? The answer is of course nothing/no-one, they did it themselves, thus a physical throwing/casting interpretation becomes illogical. To negate this point, an example similar to this in AQ using another passive verb would have to be cited.
Further, looking at the following verses, is it likely they made a statement whilst physically prostrating on the ground? - yes/no/unsure-
Re 6842-43 The day the shin shall be exposed/uncovered/removed, and they will be called to the SuJuD but they will not be able. Their looks/eyes humbled/lowered, humiliation will cover them. And indeed they were called to the SuJuD while they were sound/well.
Issue It should be noted that having one's shin removed is unlikely to prevent one from doing a physical prostration, hence some translators claiming they will be unable to prostrate simply due to their shame, but if this is the case, the obvious question becomes why mention a shin at all? - response? -
Re 17107-109 Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins SuJaD."
Issue do you take it as a physical prostration to the chin or not, or something else? -
Re 8420-22 So what is the matter with them that they do not believe? And when the quran/reading is being recited to them, they do not SJuD. No, those who rejected/concealed are denying.
3215 Only they believe in Our signs whom when they are reminded by them, they fall SuJaD, and glorify with praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.
Issue this clearly suggests that whenever Quran is recited the audience should physically prostrate - what is your view? -
Re 4102 ...and thou uphold/establish the salat/bond for/to them, then let a group from among them stand/uphold//establish with thee and let them bring their weapons; then when they have SaJaD then let them be behind you (plural)...
Issues
---it would imply that salat ends upon SJD, but if salat=prayer and SJD=prostration here, then we know traditional Muslim prayer has at least two prostrations per unit of prayer, not one, thus the verse by itself is not clear or does not make sense. The only way for it to make some sense would be to say traditional Muslim prayer normally consists of two prostrations, and since it is during wartime this can be reduced to one prostration. There is no such thing as a unit of prayer according to The Quran, nor do traditional Muslims do it in this manner (i.e. prayer does not end with prostration), but this explanation is just to show what sense could be made of this verse according to the traditional understanding.
---it implies that one must take AND hold their weapons/goods with them (by use of 'tadaAAoo / lay down', later in the verse), but if it is understood as traditional Muslim prayer then physically bowing, kneeling and prostrating like this would be impractical and somewhat dangerous, e.g. prostrating with swords!
---it says if impeded by rain or illness then one can lay down weapons but does not say anything about being excluded from prostrating. So the obvious question becomes what kind of rain/illness would prevent one from carrying weapons yet allow one to physically prostrate? It would seem there is no easy answer to this problem.
---We are also left with another problem, because if we accept that the regular/timed salat involves recitation of AQ which is strongly evidenced by AQ itself, and agreed upon by almost all , then we know we are commanded to SJD when it is relayed to us , but if we were to do this in the regular/timed salat and we know salat ends with SJD according to 4102 then it would last less than 20 seconds!
Views on these 4 issues?
i like the above question... you know why coz i have asked those questions to my self while reading those verses... it is strange that another person also feels same way and asking the same questions.. today only i happened to read these questions but i have asked to myself perhaps 7 years before... is believer not a believer if he doesn't physically prostrate? well that's what those who prostrate physically assume...
anyway those who don't physically prostrate are not arrogant ... they do humble... Allah knows best....
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